COVID Stupid

[User.45]

At the time we got it, we had 2 shots. And given the CDC is now implying that at least with Delta, natural immunity is better, we probably won't get the 3rd unless required. But those requirements seem to be going away as well.

Yes, source or GTFO. How come you can't live up to the most minimal standards of discourse a on serious topic?!

in the meantime, the paper above you didn't read concludes this:

In this study, we showed that mRNA vaccinated blood donors have a median of 17 times higher RBD antibody levels when compared with those who became seropositive due to prior COVID-19. Our results indicated an exceptional strong association between high RBD antibody levels in and the ability to biochemically neutralize RBD binding to the cellular ACE2 receptor. The N501Y mutation, while did not alter the neutralizing antibody binding, presented with a fivefold greater affinity to ACE2, which resulted in a drastically reduced ability of COVID-19 convalescent antisera to neutralize its ACE2 binding. Fortunately, the vaccinated blood samples, due to their much-elevated RBD antibody levels, were far more effective in neutralizing both the WT and N501Y RBD from binding to ACE. With an average of 16-fold greater potency than convalescent blood, the vaccinated blood samples were more than sufficient to compensate for the fivefold increased affinity of N501Y RBD, resulting in the highly effective inhibition of both the WT and N501Y RBD from binding to ACE2.

We observed very strong correlation between RBD antibody levels and ability to biochemically neutralize RBD and ACE2 binding. Previous studies have shown the correlation between neutralizing antibody and protection34,35. With over 150 million people infected with SARS-CoV-2 by May 2021, one of the critical questions going forward is whether the natural immunity would be sufficient to prevent future reinfections, particularly by more infectious variants. N501Y RBD is central to the investigation as it is the key driver to increased affinity to cell ACE2 receptors. While the reinfections were seen with the original SARS-CoV-2, our results indicated that the antisera from natural immunity would be less effective against variants such as B.1.1.7 due to its increased affinity to ACE2. Thus, many individuals acquired immunity through prior SARS-CoV-2 infections would not be sufficient to prevent reinfections by new variants with higher affinity to their cell receptors, especially in those with low RBD antibody levels.

 

[JayMysteri0]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1495061843622121481/

 

[Hrafn]

Yes, source or GTFO. How come you can't live up to the most minimal standards of discourse a on serious topic?!

in the meantime, the paper above you didn't read concludes this:

"Beauty is only skin deep, but stupid runs clear to the bone"

 

[Edd]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1495123869908316166/

When the mask mandates are gone, I am worried what the next trigger will be for such epic stupidity?

I hope it won't be back to just good ol' standby racism.

I want some good shit. I want them to flip the script on everyone, to own mohr libs.

"What?! What do you mean I can't wear masks now? What am I sheep? If I want to wear a mask, I'll wear a mask! Have you seen the people here?!"

This was posted on my ski forum. It was from some conservative dipshit website that called the cheering crowd ”pro-tyranny”. This fuckhead was screwing up everyone’s day behind him. He sucks and is the worst. He chose to ride that mountain that day so why be a pointless dick?

 

[Herdfan]

Please provide a source for this.

@Herdfan this is a fair request, we'll continue to label your posts that contain false information. I'll give you the rest of the day to back up this statement from a credible source.

Sorry, went out of town and didn't have time to visit here until Saturday. Forgot I posted this and hadn't visited the thread. It wasn't the CDC, but both the California & NY Health departments. The CDC was mentioned in the article, which was the basis for the error. Previous post has been corrected.

Prior COVID infection more protective than vaccination during Delta surge -U.S. study

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

 

[Eric]

Sorry, went out of town and didn't have time to visit here until Saturday. Forgot I posted this and hadn't visited the thread. It wasn't the CDC, but both the California & NY Health departments. The CDC was mentioned in the article, which was the basis for the error. Previous post has been corrected.

Prior COVID infection more protective than vaccination during Delta surge -U.S. study

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

Thank you, warning removed.

 

[SuperMatt]

Thank you, warning removed.

Please note, the quote says natural immunity PLUS vaccination seemed to provide better protection than vaccination alone.

Here is more info on the study.

COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations by vaccination status and previous COVID-19 diagnosis before and after the Delta variant became predominant.

www.cdc.gov

Notice how, in the linked article, it says multiple times that vaccination is the safest method. And nobody “implied” that natural immunity was “better” in any way.

Somebody doesn’t want to get the vaccine or wear a mask, they could find some article with a headline that confirms their decision, and not bother carefully reading the full article or the associated study.

And given the CDC California & NY Health departments are now implying that at least with Delta, natural immunity is better

Here is a quote, straight from the linked article, from the California health department:

Dr. Erica Pan, state epidemiologist for the California Department of Public Health, said in an email that the study "clearly shows" that vaccines provide the safest protection against COVID-19 and they offer added protection for those with prior infections.

"Outside of this study, recent data on the highly contagious Omicron variant shows that getting a booster provides significant additional protection against infection, hospitalization and death,” Pan said.

Sorry, but the statement from the forum member is NOT what is reflected by the statement from the state of California epidemiologist.

Finally, over 95% of cases are omicron now, and the above study points out that none of the subjects got the booster. I realize it can all be confusing, but I think the statement from the CA epidemiologist was very clearly NOT implying that natural immunity is better.

 

[Herdfan]

Please note, the quote says natural immunity PLUS vaccination seemed to provide better protection than vaccination alone.

It does say that, but the very first paragraph says:

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant,

That is pretty clear.

Now as to safer, of course getting vaxxed is safer than catching it, but that wasn't my point.

 

[SuperMatt]

It does say that, but the very first paragraph says:



That is pretty clear.

Now as to safer, of course getting vaxxed is safer than catching it, but that wasn't my point.

What was the point then? You said the report “implied” natural immunity was “better” than vaccination. In what way?

And sorry, but that first paragraph isn’t that clear, and it doesn’t really back itself up with details. I looked through the article for evidence that natural immunity was more potent a shield than vaccination against Delta… I didn’t see it. Perhaps @P_X can read the paper I linked and I missed something about it that shows that.

So, you have two apparently contradictory statements in the first paragraph. Seems like a bit of a fault by Reuters. But if you cared to read the second paragraph…

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

So again, I think the Reuters headline and first paragraph are a bit misleading. The second paragraph is more clear.

 

[Herdfan]

Ok, let's break it down like this.

As it relates to Delta, and only Delta:

Natural Immunity > Vaxxed alone

Natural Immunity + Vaxxed, > Natural Immunity.

 

[SuperMatt]

Ok, let's break it down like this.

As it relates to Delta, and only Delta:

Natural Immunity > Vaxxed alone

Natural Immunity + Vaxxed, > Natural Immunity.

Thank you for that. I read through it again. I see what you’re saying about Delta during October-November.

For your own health and safety, I believe you are drawing the wrong conclusions. You indicated that this study means you don’t need a booster.

First, in that study, the vaccinated people hadn’t gotten the booster yet.

Second, Delta is now very rare.

Omicron makes up 95% of sequenced Covid cases in U.S. as infections hit pandemic record

The omicron variant now represents nearly every Covid case sequenced by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

www.cnbc.com

As of January 1:
95% - Omicron
4% - Delta

Finally, there is mounting evidence that the booster helps with longer-term immunity in B and T cells.

Got a Covid Booster? You Probably Won’t Need Another for a Long Time (Published 2022)

A flurry of new studies suggests that several parts of the immune system can mount a sustained, potent response to any coronavirus variant.

www.nytimes.com

(paywall removed)

Specialized immune cells called T cells produced after immunization by four brands of Covid vaccine — Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson and Novavax — are about 80 percent as powerful against Omicron as other variants, the research found. Given how different Omicron’s mutations are from previous variants, it’s very likely that T cells would mount a similarly robust attack on any future variant as well, researchers said.


This matches what scientists have found for the SARS coronavirus, which killed nearly 800 people in a 2003 epidemic in Asia. In people exposed to that virus, T cells have lasted more than 17 years. Evidence so far indicates that the immune cells for the new coronavirus — sometimes called memory cells — may also decline very slowly, experts said.

“Memory responses can last for ages,” said Wendy Burgers, an immunologist at the University of Cape Town who led one of the studies, published in the journal Nature. “Potentially, the T-cell response is extremely long lived.”

In the newest study, another team showed that a third shot creates an even richer pool of B cells than the second shot did, and the antibodies they produce recognize a broader range of variants. In laboratory experiments, these antibodies were able to fend off the Beta, Delta and Omicron variants. In fact, more than half of the antibodies seen one month after a third dose were able to neutralize Omicron, even though the vaccine was not designed for that variant, the study found.

“If you’ve had a third dose, you’re going to have a rapid response that’s going to have quite a bit of specificity for Omicron, which explains why people that have had a third dose do so much better,” said Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at Rockefeller University who led the study.

Memory cells produced after infection with the coronavirus, rather than by the vaccines, seem less potent against the Omicron variant, according to a study published last month in Nature Medicine. Immunity generated by infection “varies quite a lot, while the vaccine response is much more consistently good,” said Marcus Buggert, an immunologist at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden who led the study.

I’d love to hear from @P_X on this, but from what I’m reading, the evidence is showing that the vaccine should basically be considered a 3-shot sequence and there is the possibility that immunity could last a long time if you get all 3 shots. Also, the immediate immunity of antibodies (from infection or vaccination) wanes fairly quickly, but longer-term immunity from T and B cells could last decades. For this study, it would have been interesting to know when those with natural immunity original caught COVID vs. when the vaccinated people got their vaccine. Perhaps that study was seeing some of the longer-term immunity from people who caught COVID early in 2020.

 

[User.45]

Thank you for that. I read through it again. I see what you’re saying about Delta during October-November.

For your own health and safety, I believe you are drawing the wrong conclusions. You indicated that this study means you don’t need a booster.

First, in that study, the vaccinated people hadn’t gotten the booster yet.

Second, Delta is now very rare.

Omicron makes up 95% of sequenced Covid cases in U.S. as infections hit pandemic record

The omicron variant now represents nearly every Covid case sequenced by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

www.cnbc.com

As of January 1:
95% - Omicron
4% - Delta

Finally, there is mounting evidence that the booster helps with longer-term immunity in B and T cells.

Got a Covid Booster? You Probably Won’t Need Another for a Long Time (Published 2022)

A flurry of new studies suggests that several parts of the immune system can mount a sustained, potent response to any coronavirus variant.

www.nytimes.com

(paywall removed)






I’d love to hear from @P_X on this, but from what I’m reading, the evidence is showing that the vaccine should basically be considered a 3-shot sequence and there is the possibility that immunity could last a long time if you get all 3 shots. Also, the immediate immunity of antibodies (from infection or vaccination) wanes fairly quickly, but longer-term immunity from T and B cells could last decades. For this study, it would have been interesting to know when those with natural immunity original caught COVID vs. when the vaccinated people got their vaccine. Perhaps that study was seeing some of the longer-term immunity from people who caught COVID early in 2020.

Wow what a horrible paper this CDC one is. The tables are so bad, if I were a reviewer, I would tell the editor not to accept the paper without that shit being fixed. Neither Reuters nor @Herdfan should draw generalized conclusions about this paper. In fact the naturally vs artificially acquired immunity studies always have to be interpreted with a major caveat: you aren't comparing the same populations if you removed the 130,781 worst players from the naturally-acquired team. So in one group you have a bunch of people who would have died if weren't vaccinated and in the other you just excluded the people who died of their first infection.

The only fair conclusion I can make is that the Vaccines that were developed for the Wildtype virus have variable efficacy against the subsequent variants, but naturally-acquired immunity has the same issue.

THe 3 most striking things to me from the data are

1) Moderna coming up again and again as the best. Americans should be proud about this, this vaccine is the love-child of an NIH-Industry collaboration and as such, couldn't be more American (literally healthy national pride, folks?)

2) It would have taken 52,000,000 vaccinated people to achieve the the number of hospitalizations of the ~5M unvaccinated. Insane!!!

3) If I fix the supplementary figure, it actually shows lower risk in the vaccinated among those who got COVID in 2021

 

[Nycturne]

1) Moderna coming up again and again as the best. Americans should be proud about this, this vaccine is the love-child of an NIH-Industry collaboration and as such, couldn't be more American (literally healthy national pride, folks?)

This is exactly the sort of national pride I can get behind.

True. He even hired a PI to prove he is a "pedo". It was really pathetic.

It's one of the reasons I'm glad that Shotwell is running the day-to-day over at SpaceX. They are doing some great work, but Musk is as much a liability to any corporate endeavor as he is a help. And I'd be looking to push him towards the door if I had the opportunity to do so. To protect what Tesla and SpaceX have managed to build so far and not have the baby thrown out with the bath water. Especially since the sort of accomplishments SpaceX has pulled off with reuse and adding much needed competition for human rated craft (although I'm mixed on Starlink) is another form of healthy national pride, in my opinion.

Man, so many probably sane people have just plain lost it during Covid. All common sense gone, all normal acknowledgment of an enterprise's right to set its rules so long as they don't violate state or federal laws etc. Insanity!

You know, this is an interesting comment, but I think we were already heading this way. Covid may have accelerated it though, adding gasoline on top of fuel already primed to turn into a blaze. If it wasn't mask mandates, it would have been something else that would have been politicized to this level, but the health policies required to tame a pandemic just made it so easy.

 

[lizkat]

If it wasn't mask mandates, it would have been something else that would have been politicized to this level, but the health policies required to tame a pandemic just made it so easy.

Maybe. It just seems all the more outlandish that it's in reaction to public health measures. One might sooner expect big hissy fits over stuff like changing speed limits on highways or some such, not that people seem to observe those anyway, so I do take your point...

 

[Edd]

You know, this is an interesting comment, but I think we were already heading this way. Covid may have accelerated it though, adding gasoline on top of fuel already primed to turn into a blaze. If it wasn't mask mandates, it would have been something else that would have been politicized to this level, but the health policies required to tame a pandemic just made it so easy.

Agreed. Tucker Carlson’s entire job is identifying or conjuring the friction points between left/right. The pandemic was bad for Trump but a two year blowjob for TC. Any request/mandate to take Covid precautions is an affront to your way of life. These rules from a private business are juicy but, from any government body, that’s filet mignon.

 

[Nycturne]

Maybe. It just seems all the more outlandish that it's in reaction to public health measures. One might sooner expect big hissy fits over stuff like changing speed limits on highways or some such, not that people seem to observe those anyway, so I do take your point...

Similar to what Edd points out, Fox News has been planting the seed that the left in the US is out to create an authoritarian state, etc, etc. And it’s been going on well before the pandemic, with Obama being a popular target, followed up with the pivot to “The deep state is hindering Trump”. Having a Democrat (even if they are a centrist) in charge + pandemic restrictions just lines up with that message, no matter the real basis. But this is what propaganda looks like. It’s not about cultivating an informed public, but cultivating a particular form of political thought.

What we see in this thread is partly the long result of beating that drum for well over a decade.

Agreed. Tucker Carlson’s entire job is identifying or conjuring the friction points between left/right. The pandemic was bad for Trump but a two year blowjob for TC. Any request/mandate to take Covid precautions is an affront to your way of life. These rules from a private business are juicy but, from any government body, that’s filet mignon.

Yup, Carlson and O’Reilly have been at the heart of this sort of nonsense for a long, long time.

 

[lizkat]

So let me get this straight. The Rs are all over law'n'order with valentines and candy boxes... except if the "authoritarian" mayor of your town or the "authoritarian" owner of a private enterprise like a ski resort or the "authoritarian" agency the CDC tells us to mask up in order to tone down the spread of covid... ?

I'm sick of all the propaganda coming from the right about who's an authoritarian.

We spent four years under the bizarrely egomaniacal authoritarianism of Donald J. Trump, and the party whose banner he carried has been about trying to expand the powers of the US presidency for decades.​

​

The Republicans cannot reasonably pitch anti-authoritarianism as a virtue while having supported the most autocratic president ever to occupy the White House.​

​

I mean Trump is a guy who tried to work around the Constitution any time it got in his way, a guy who completely ignored the norms of his high office and who realized that the spirit of our rule of law was something he could definitely ignore with impunity.​

Time for the Democrats to point all that out more often, especially considering all the pushback on state and federal efforts to manage covid without trying to run a Chinese model with zero tolerance of outbreaks.

 

[Eric]

Nobody's more oppressed than butthurt Republicans.

 

[Yoused]

The stench of the shitgibbon lingers over the country, and we just cannot open enough windows and doors to get the place adequately aired out

An Anti-Vax Judge Is Preventing the Navy From Deploying a Warship

Admirals want to remove an insubordinate anti-vaxxer from command of a destroyer. A judge won’t let them.

slate.com

so now you know, personal "religious" stupid overrides the security of hundreds of millions of reasonable people.

 

[SuperMatt]

The stench of the shitgibbon lingers over the country, and we just cannot open enough windows and doors to get the place adequately aired out

An Anti-Vax Judge Is Preventing the Navy From Deploying a Warship

Admirals want to remove an insubordinate anti-vaxxer from command of a destroyer. A judge won’t let them.

slate.com

so now you know, personal "religious" stupid overrides the security of hundreds of millions of reasonable people.

Weird, I didn’t think the military answered to the judiciary. I don’t think this would pass constitutional muster if it made it to the Supreme Court. We can’t have judges telling military commanders who they can or cannot deploy or promote to command or remove from command.