COVID Stupid

[Deleted member 199]

it’s like triage, but in this case help the vaccinated sick ones who need help first. Send the unvaccinated home.

I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure triage is about prioritising help for those who need it most and can be helped, and not about refusing to help people because they're partly to blame for needing help.

Also, it's a little disingenuous to say "help the vaccinated first" if your next sentence is "send the unvaccinated home".

The first part implies you're going to help the unvaccinated after, but you've said quite clearly you don't want to help them.

 

[Eric]

I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure triage is about prioritising help for those who need it most and can be helped, and not about refusing to help people because they're partly to blame for needing help.

Also, it's a little disingenuous to say "help the vaccinated first" if your next sentence is "send the unvaccinated home".

The first part implies you're going to help the unvaccinated after, but you've said quite clearly you don't want to help them.

Sounds like opinion and conjecture but the reality is no hospitals are favoring one over the other, at least nothing on the news is being reported that way. In fact, the unvaccinated are overwhelming hospitals and obviously have priority right now.

Are they selfish assholes who treat hospital staff like shit with a sense of entitlement and no shame? Yes. Are they being sent home when sick? No.

 

[Deleted member 199]

Sounds like opinion and conjecture but the reality is no hospitals are favoring one over the other, at least nothing on the news is being reported that way. In fact, the unvaccinated are overwhelming hospitals and obviously have priority right now.

Are they selfish assholes who treat hospital staff like shit with a sense of entitlement and no shame? Yes. Are they being sent home when sick? No.

I'm not suggesting that is happening somewhere there, I'm directly responding to @Huntn and @Thomas Veil clearly saying they think hospitals should do that.

 

[Eric]

I'm not suggesting that is happening somewhere there, I'm directly responding to @Huntn and @Thomas Veil clearly saying they think hospitals should do that.

I would never really send someone home but I definitely get their thinking here. These people have been irresponsible, outspoken against the vaccine and politically motivated this entire time and now we have to put them in the front of the line while they're kicking and screaming about it. It's easy to say F them right in their COVID hole.

 

[Deleted member 199]

I definitely get their thinking here

I understand the frustration with anti-vaxxers who then continue to take up beds.

But like I said, I can also see where it's gonna lead.

You choose not to be Catholic? No service at my Catholic hospital (I still find it beyond bizarre that a religion runs hospitals but whatever).

You choose to be an unwed mother? No service at my conservative-run hospital.

I know, I know - those things are not related to the cause of the need for hospitalisation, so it's 'different'. Pretty sure that's not gonna stop someone doing what they see as "the other side of the coin". If conservatives can pretend that science is a political issue, you better believe they're gonna pretend health care is a political issue.

It's easy to say F them right in their COVID hole.

Sure. Right after we say 'fuck drink drivers, speeders and those driving unlicensed, no hospital care after they crash', not to mention 'fuck smokers, no hospital care when they get cancer' oh and of course 'fuck protesters, no hospital care when the police/other protesters beat them to a pulp'.

If you think health care in America is fucked now, wait till you have doctors/hospitals deciding they're going to admit people based on their specific moral compass.

 

[Eric]

I understand the frustration with anti-vaxxers who then continue to take up beds.

But like I said, I can also see where it's gonna lead.

You choose not to be Catholic? No service at my Catholic hospital (I still find it beyond bizarre that a religion runs hospitals but whatever).

You choose to be an unwed mother? No service at my conservative-run hospital.

I know, I know - those things are not related to the cause of the need for hospitalisation, so it's 'different'. Pretty sure that's not gonna stop someone doing what they see as "the other side of the coin". If conservatives can pretend that science is a political issue, you better believe they're gonna pretend health care is a political issue.



Sure. Right after we say 'fuck drink drivers, speeders and those driving unlicensed, no hospital care after they crash', not to mention 'fuck smokers, no hospital care when they get cancer' oh and of course 'fuck protesters, no hospital care when the police/other protesters beat them to a pulp'.

If you think health care in America is fucked now, wait till you have doctors/hospitals deciding they're going to admit people based on their specific moral compass.

You're trying to elicit sympathy for these dicks, I think you're going to have a hard time pushing that here. They will get the best care possible even though they certainly do NOT deserve it so I don't get all the hypotheticals.

 

[Deleted member 199]

You're trying to elicit sympathy for these dicks, I think you're going to have a hard time pushing that here. They will get the best care possible even though they certainly do NOT deserve it so I don't get all the hypotheticals.

Not at all. My reasons are 100% not because of 'sympathy' for anti-vaxxers.

I'm trying to make people realise that a change like that, does not happen in a vacuum.

 

[Huntn]

I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure triage is about prioritising help for those who need it most and can be helped, and not about refusing to help people because they're partly to blame for needing help.

Also, it's a little disingenuous to say "help the vaccinated first" if your next sentence is "send the unvaccinated home".

The first part implies you're going to help the unvaccinated after, but you've said quite clearly you don't want to help them.

First of all I want emphasize I don’t consider this a fight between you and me. This is simply a logical philosophical exercise. That said…

Triage is not helping people that most need it. Triage is prioritizing, giving help to those that can benefit most from that help. So it means cutting loose those who are too far gone. If you are overwhelmed or understaffed, you apply the limited help you can give were it is most beneficial, not lost causes.

I have added into that a responsibility clause if we have a full hospital with limited beds, say 10 beds available and 40 people need beds, of those people who need to be in hospital those who have COVID and refused the vaccine, they would go to the end of the line and sent home. From the patient perspective, I consider it adult responsibility.

 

[Huntn]

I'm not suggesting that is happening somewhere there, I'm directly responding to @Huntn and @Thomas Veil clearly saying they think hospitals should do that.

I just answered you, and yes this is how I feel. Did you know that both Chicken Pox and TB is on the rise because not so smart parents are not having their kids vaccinated? I believe this is part of the Fermi Paradox/Great Filter argument as to why we maybe doomed...

Chickenpox on the rise

Minnesota's Department of Health says there's an uptick in the number of chickenpox cases this year.

www.kimt.com

https://www.usnews.com/news/healthiest-communities/articles/2018-08-21/is-tuberculosis-making-a-comeback

 

[Yoused]

What happened to Epsilon through Kappa?

You see, one side started to fall a little but stabilized when the other side drooped over. However, as it was falling, it slid a little bit sideways, causing the bottom to come loose and just fall away. Thus, the Δ variant was directly transformed into the λ variant.

 

[Yoused]

Lincoln Project ad

Spoiler: banned from Comcast

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418194125807964169/

 

[Yoused]

Anti-maskers and Anti-vaxxers were protesting outside a clinic when they got into an argument with a woman who had showed up at Cedars-Sinai Breast Health Services for a round of chemo.

Protesting COVID restrictions outside a cancer clinic. This level of stupid seriously needs to stop.

 

[Deleted member 199]

First of all I want emphasize I don’t consider this a fight between you and me.

Agreed. I have RL friends with whom I have bigger philosophical differences.

Triage is not helping people that most need it. Triage is prioritizing, giving help to those that can benefit most from that help.

The good people at Oxford English Dictionary don't seem to agree with you (emphasis mine):

the preliminary assessment of patients or casualties in order to determine the urgency of their need for treatment and the nature of treatment required

 

[Thomas Veil]

First of all I want emphasize I don’t consider this a fight between you and me. This is simply a logical philosophical exercise. That said…

Triage is not helping people that most need it. Triage is prioritizing, giving help to those that can benefit most from that help. So it means cutting loose those who are too far gone. If you are overwhelmed or understaffed, you apply the limited help you can give were it is most beneficial, not lost causes.

I have added into that a responsibility clause if we have a full hospital with limited beds, say 10 beds available and 40 people need beds, of those people who need to be in hospital those who have COVID and refused the vaccine, they would go to the end of the line and sent home. From the patient perspective, I consider it adult responsibility.

I can buy that.

You see, one side started to fall a little but stabilized when the other side drooped over. However, as it was falling, it slid a little bit sideways, causing the bottom to come loose and just fall away. Thus, the Δ variant was directly transformed into the λ variant.

That has to be the nerdiest joke I’ve ever read.

 

[Roller]

A few facts and comments relevant to this thread:

1. In the United States, hospitals are bound by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA) to screen patients for emergency medical conditions. If one exists, they must be stabilized or treated until the condition is resolved. If the facility lacks specialized capabilities for treatment, they must transfer the patient to a hospital that does. The latter are required to accept transfer. Of course, there are many nuances that come into play, particularly in patients with COVID-19 and in scenarios where the specialty hospital is at capacity.

2. Refusing to treat patients because they chose risky behavior runs counter to the ethical principles that are supposed to govern medical care. In situations where triage is required because of limited resources, hospitals typically will base decisions on considerations such as likelihood of recovery, age, and so on.

3. The science regarding COVID-19 in general and the delta variant in particular is fluid because new evidence, some of it contradictory, comes out every day. But most people who quote studies online, especially on social media, lack the wherewithal to assess the validity of published medical research. Evan in the medical / scientific community, there is considerable (and, IMO, appropriate) debate.

4. The CDC recognizes three levels of variants, which are constellations of mutations that establish a distinct viral line due to natural selection: variants of interest, variants of concern, and variants of high consequence. Delta's competitive advantage appears to be the higher viral loads in infected patients, which increases transmission. So far, the leading vaccines are fairly competent at preventing serious illness, but that could change. (Delta is considered a VOC.)

5. Fully vaccinated individuals who contract COVID-19 (so-called breakthrough infection) will usually have mild symptoms if any, though some will be sicker. A small minority will require hospitalization and may die, particularly if they have co-morbidities like diabetes. It's still unclear how many people who are mildly symptomatic will suffer long-term consequences, so precautions are in order.

6. I believe vaccinated people in areas with low vaccination rates (I am in one of those) should continue to wear masks in public indoor spaces. Fortunately, hospitals can still require this of staff, patients, and visitors.

 

[Huntn]

Lincoln Project ad

Spoiler: banned from Comcast

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418194125807964169/

Freaking simo awful and awesome.

 

[Thomas Veil]

Lincoln Project ad

Spoiler: banned from Comcast

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1418194125807964169/

I’m not sure why the ad is in spoiler tags, but

1. There is about a 0% chance cable systems will drop Fox News as the ad asks—more’s the pity.
2. They’re right: Fox is responsible for deaths. A lot of them.
3. Tucker Carlson: “How many people have died after taking the Covid vaccine?” What?? Are you out of your fucking mind? How many have died from not taking the vaccine?

 

[Huntn]

I’m not sure why the ad is in spoiler tags, but

1. There is about a 0% chance cable systems will drop Fox News as the ad asks—more’s the pity.
2. They’re right: Fox is responsible for deaths. A lot of them.
3. Tucker Carlson: “How many people have died after taking the Covid vaccine?” What?? Are you out of your fucking mind? How many have died from not taking the vaccine?

Tucker Carlson wants to run as Trump V2 in 2024.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

In perusing this thread, there appears to be blanket scorn directed at all the non-vaccinated, but they fall into at least four categories.

First, due to pre-existing conditions related to potential side effects of the vaccines, some people face increased risk with vaccination. They are not necessarily against the vaccines in principle.

Second, some people have concerns about the development of the vaccines and are in the difficult position of having to weigh the risk of Covid vs. the risk of potential issues down the road from these new technologies.

Third, some people have an inherent distrust of big pharma based on the industry's history and/or previous adverse reactions to their products. They also could be facing personal struggle trying to decide what to do.

Fourth, there are the conspiracy theory, rigged-election anti-vaxxers who probably also scoff at wearing masks and social distancing. They deserve scorn and those careless behavior choices no doubt account for some percentage of the rising cases among the unvaccinated.

None of this is meant to dissuade anyone from taking the vaccine. I simply want to point out that getting the vaccine is not a simple thing to do for some people and the non-vaccinated are not one homogenous group of horrible people. Many in the first three groups are behaving responsibly - they may not have much contact with other people (retired, working remotely, etc.) and wear masks and social distance even when guidelines relax these practices.

 

[JayMysteri0]

In perusing this thread, there appears to be blanket scorn directed at all the non-vaccinated, but they fall into at least four categories.

First, due to pre-existing conditions related to potential side effects of the vaccines, some people face increased risk with vaccination. They are not necessarily against the vaccines in principle.

Second, some people have concerns about the development of the vaccines and are in the difficult position of having to weigh the risk of Covid vs. the risk of potential issues down the road from these new technologies.

Third, some people have an inherent distrust of big pharma based on the industry's history and/or previous adverse reactions to their products. They also could be facing personal struggle trying to decide what to do.

Fourth, there are the conspiracy theory, rigged-election anti-vaxxers who probably also scoff at wearing masks and social distancing. They deserve scorn and those careless behavior choices no doubt account for some percentage of the rising cases among the unvaccinated.

None of this is meant to dissuade anyone from taking the vaccine. I simply want to point out that getting the vaccine is not a simple thing to do for some people and the non-vaccinated are not one homogenous group of horrible people. Many in the first three groups are behaving responsibly - they may not have much contact with other people (retired, working remotely, etc.) and wear masks and social distance even when guidelines relax these practices.

It's pretty often mentioned that any ire towards the unvaccinated is specifically at that base of a party that's been fed the vaccine has some kind of agenda behind it. That Biden's door to door outreach is the test run for going door to door to take people's guns & Bibles. It's why you see repeatedly the connection of red state administrations & low vaccination rates. There's a clear focus on WHO is being referred to.