FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

How much longer will this go on? This orange menace has committed several crimes which would have led to indictments for anyone else and he's creating discord in the nation with his continual lying about a rigged election and his threats of "big problems." Whether he declassified the documents or not (and of course he didn't), he was in illegal possession of them and didn't turn them over as required by a subpoena. That's at least obstruction, you know, like what he did in the Russia investigation. These are some of the nation's top secrets and he may still have some as indicated by the empty folders. Or worse, he's sold or given them to foreign nationals. He based a big part of his 2016 campaign on Hillary's supposed unfitness for office because of her handling of emails but what he's done is orders of magnitude worse. And all this is above and beyond inciting a violent attack on the Capitol to block the peaceful transition of power. Enough with the endless investigations.
 
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11th circuit wasting no time.

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From that cited piece about Trump mouthing off about possible indictment:
​
"I think if it happened, I think you’d have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we’ve never seen before. I don’t think the people of the United States would stand for it," Trump told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt Thursday.​

Yeah well what I think the people of the United States would not stand for is if Joe Biden decided to pardon Trump and/or some high level insurrectionists, after or even without indictments or convictions.

I was not one of the Americans who went batsh^t when President Ford pardoned Nixon. I remember being shocked when I happened to be listening to the radio and heard Ford make the announcement. However, I didn't object. The country was so weary of Vietnam and struggling with how to reconcile veterans and antiwar protestors, and then comes Nixon's insane attempt to cover up a stupid political stunt, and his arrogance in turning that into a series of constitutional challenges. It was made clear by his own party's leadership that he was subject to rule of law and I was willing to let his unprecedented resignation from the presidency be end of the story.

But Trump's transgressions have been of an entirely different duration and in a whole other league -- and so have those of the party that still to this day enables him-- and I hope to God that Biden would not decide to try to smooth things over and "move on" by throwing a pardon (or pardons...) into the mix.

It would be like saying ok so while this guy Trump was operating in some kind of imagined alternate reality, we didn't really have a rule of law that applied to everybody, but now that's over and the danger is past. Well the danger's not past and "it" is a power grab by near fascists in a hijacked GOP, and that behavior is definitely not over.

I do still assume Biden would not pardon Trump, but in the middle of the night now once in awhile it crosses my mind. In those moments I can even rue the fact that he highly values trying to be a conciliator of Americans with polarized views in these times. He shouldn't imagine that most in his own party would forgive him letting Trump skate -- even if "accepting a pardon means acknowledging guilt."
 
Edd said:
Trump deserves to be lawfully executed.
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No, that is too dangerous. We are not in need of high-profile RW martyrs. What should be done is a midnight rendition to a CIA black site. Nobody will know where he is or even whether he is still alive, save for half a dozen agents.
 
Yoused said:
No, that is too dangerous. We are not in need of high-profile RW martyrs. What should be done is a midnight rendition to a CIA black site. Nobody will know where he is or even whether he is still alive, save for half a dozen agents.
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I agree we don’t need that, but Trump is, very likely, a Russian asset. Gotta put him down as a warning. These decisions are hard, brother. He is a clear and present danger.
 
Trump is a sociopath and an extreme narcissist. He's likely to end up a blithering incompetent if his fantasies of omnipotence are punctured with indictment(s) and the threat of public trial(s).

Even though narcissists crave the public spotlight, the exception is public humiliation. Trump has never even been able to tolerate policy advisors so much as questioning his views on an issue in the relative privacy of an Oval Office meeting. He flies into a rage when someone offers irrefutable data showing that his outlook is unsupportable.

He has already (foolishly) said "the USA won't stand for it" if is he indicted. Some take that as incitement to violence by his followers, which he denies, but what it is first and above all is a statement that HE won't stand for it... actually that he won't be able to stand it.

Indictment of a former president (on what we can assume would only be irrefutable evidence of guilt) is the ultimate humiliation. It's saying that the rule of law does apply to him, he is not special, and it's not true that "L'état, c'est moi." He is not the state, he is not the head of state, he is plain ol' Don in the dock, brought there like a common criminal but on charges of stealing state papers or espionage or whatever is the evidence that DoJ finally decides is chargeable and can withstand questions of "reasonable doubt".

With any luck he actually will be indicted for something, will flip out completely and his lawyers will be able to make stick a defense of incompetence to stand trial due to mental illness.

Yes he's dangerous because of his appeal to a lot of (mostly passive-reactive) cult of authoritarian followers,, but he would be even more dangerous if he ended up seen as a martyr. That outcome is possible even if he totally skates on all his transgressions, since his cult already figures he's being persecuted.

But if he were put up on charges of treason, convicted (although who's to say a jury will have the gus to convict a former president of treason even on good evidence?) and then sentenced to death, It's a certainty that of the 13 million or so estimated "followers" of Donald Trump, every last one of the far smaller number who are pro-actively prepared to commit violence now to "restore" him to the Oval Office would be prepared then to commit specific and random sorts of violence in retribution... even though the average delay in death sentences is over 20 years. So Trump's right in a way that the US won't stand for it. But that's the extreme case, which of course is how Trump's brain is looking at it.

Better to indict him and hope he never has to stand trial. All those hamburgers will have the last word.

As much as I'd like to think the DoJ will charge this guy, I'm no lawyer, much less a constitutional scholar and have never been stupid enough to lay money on my guesstimates about how politics and the rule of law intersect in a courtroom either. I have a long memory of being so often so surprised and so wrong...
 
I hope Trump is just borrowing time with these stall tactics, but ends up having to pay interest. He may have gotten a special master, but even if the DoJ allows him to go ahead without a full appeal, it may weaken their arguments later on.

Already we’re seeing them (Trump’s lawyers) refuse to provide evidence of declassification - that’s because he didn’t and lying at this stage is criminal. And because it doesn’t matter if he did. Which they also know.

It makes zero sense to not provide something routine like evidence of declassification. Unless it doesn’t exist and you’d have to lie to do so…

Trump is beyond guilty. It’s so aggravating seeing this, but him being shielded by uncodified rules and millions of Americans who think he can do no wrong is slowing the process down. I don’t think he gets away with this one though. Remember, the government knows a lot more things than we do. They know things Trump doesn’t think they know. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me if they have video from inside the White House of his staff fetching his documents and loading them into trucks. Maybe they’ve already interviewed people who have given statements against him. Any lying to the government at this point means more charges, that’s why his team is using the “he declassified them” defense - without actually making that argument to the court.

He got lucky in finding the goofy judge to break precedent and give him special treatment. But he won’t have that run of luck throughout the process, and even if he did, I’m not sure it would help. Hell, he’s so daft he may end up breaking more laws by the time it’s said and done.
 
GermanSuplex said:
I hope Trump is just borrowing time with these stall tactics, but ends up having to pay interest. He may have gotten a special master, but even if the DoJ allows him to go ahead without a full appeal, it may weaken their arguments later on.

Already we’re seeing them (Trump’s lawyers) refuse to provide evidence of declassification - that’s because he didn’t and lying at this stage is criminal. And because it doesn’t matter if he did. Which they also know.

It makes zero sense to not provide something routine like evidence of declassification. Unless it doesn’t exist and you’d have to lie to do so…

Trump is beyond guilty. It’s so aggravating seeing this, but him being shielded by uncodified rules and millions of Americans who think he can do no wrong is slowing the process down. I don’t think he gets away with this one though. Remember, the government knows a lot more things than we do. They know things Trump doesn’t think they know. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me if they have video from inside the White House of his staff fetching his documents and loading them into trucks. Maybe they’ve already interviewed people who have given statements against him. Any lying to the government at this point means more charges, that’s why his team is using the “he declassified them” defense - without actually making that argument to the court.

He got lucky in finding the goofy judge to break precedent and give him special treatment. But he won’t have that run of luck throughout the process, and even if he did, I’m not sure it would help. Hell, he’s so daft he may end up breaking more laws by the time it’s said and done.
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This aligns with claiming massive voter fraud when they haven't even proven minimal voter fraud.
 
I can’t wait until the drops of news come in tomorrow. Trump wanted a special master - he got it. They even gave him one of the names he asked for (his lawyers rejected the DoJ picks).

Now, the special master will have to go through the documents… The question is, what about the classified documents? Trump is saying the government has no right to take back the documents… but won’t provide he declassified them (which still doesn’t make them his). And that is the brick wall in his defense - it literally makes no sense.

The government says “These are our classified documents. And they’re still ours if they’re declassified”. Trump’s BEST defense is that he did so. But he can’t provide any proof that he did. Pretty sure the SM isn’t going to say “Well, burn them. He says they’re declassified, so end the investigation”.

He’s going to ask for proof they’re declassified and go from there, or he’s going to say “If you have nothing to combat the government’s assertion that these documents - labeled classified - are just that, then I will take their word that they are classified government documents”.

So Trump’s lawyers will have to lie and say he declassified them, or confess. Perjury or confession. This may not have been the best choice of a stall tactic, as it could hasten proof the government’s accusations are true, and even provide the feds more evidence in a future indictment. All of this stuff is on the record - every comment Trump makes, every document his lawyers sign, every argument they make in court, every TV interview…

The lies are catching up quick. It’s simple - he lost the election, a multi-pronged effort to overturn the results failed, so he took a bunch of important shit back to his gaudy golf club. It’s really an open and shut case, but money apparently buys you a lot of time.
 
GermanSuplex said:
I can’t wait until the drops of news come in tomorrow. Trump wanted a special master - he got it. They even gave him one of the names he asked for (his lawyers rejected the DoJ picks).

Now, the special master will have to go through the documents… The question is, what about the classified documents? Trump is saying the government has no right to take back the documents… but won’t provide he declassified them (which still doesn’t make them his). And that is the brick wall in his defense - it literally makes no sense.

The government says “These are our classified documents. And they’re still ours if they’re declassified”. Trump’s BEST defense is that he did so. But he can’t provide any proof that he did. Pretty sure the SM isn’t going to say “Well, burn them. He says they’re declassified, so end the investigation”.

He’s going to ask for proof they’re declassified and go from there, or he’s going to say “If you have nothing to combat the government’s assertion that these documents - labeled classified - are just that, then I will take their word that they are classified government documents”.

So Trump’s lawyers will have to lie and say he declassified them, or confess. Perjury or confession. This may not have been the best choice of a stall tactic, as it could hasten proof the government’s accusations are true, and even provide the feds more evidence in a future indictment. All of this stuff is on the record - every comment Trump makes, every document his lawyers sign, every argument they make in court, every TV interview…

The lies are catching up quick. It’s simple - he lost the election, a multi-pronged effort to overturn the results failed, so he took a bunch of important shit back to his gaudy golf club. It’s really an open and shut case, but money apparently buys you a lot of time.
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This will be fun to watch and see which way they go. And what follows.
 
He has no defense and any argument they make opens them up to having to confess. It’s really a dead-end for them, the only things slowing the feds down are one goofy judge and the midterms.

I expect this special master - if he is half as decent as both sides claim - to say “Uh, if you’re not going to argue you declassified them, wtf do you expect to happen?”

I expect Fox News and Trump will be discrediting this guy before the week is up. Would not be shocked if it happens as soon as tomorrow. I’m sure some in cult-world have already started, but I expect it go mainstream the moment something doesn’t go in TFG’s favor.
 
i could be mistaken, but I think I read that the special master was a FISA judge so I believe that he was (and could be again immediately) cleared to read any of the documents.

Of course that won't stop Trump or Fox from coming up with some disqualification or other in case the guy turns out to be such a straight arrow that he looks through the stuff in two days and says to Trump "Better put your street clothes on" and to the lawyers "Best of luck."

As far as Trump's lawyers go... they know not to claim he declassified stuff. They could be disbarred for asserting stuff like that when it's easy enough to verify that it's not true. You don't just declassify stuff by blowing smoke over it and calling it good.

TFG didn't declassify anything, ya think? No records of it, nor explanations of why. He was too frantically busy trying to overturn Biden's election right up to the day he had to leave office.
God knows who packed up his office for him, never mind who supposedly took care of papers down at Mar a Lago that reports say he didn't even treat properly when he was stil prez. And only he and one or two other people will know what he took from DC at the end and packed for himself, i.e. material that he really had no business even asking for in the last few days of his presidency. Sure he could ask for anything right up to noon on the 20th, but for what purpose?
 
thekev said:
Even if he did, it probably wouldn't make some of those actions legal.
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It absolutely doesn’t make anything he is. That is why his lawyers are flipping over themselves. Even the argument that he declassified them is an admission that they aren’t his records. There’s just nothing he can argue that makes any sense or explains why he had sensitive government property at his golf club - and actively lied about it when confronted.

He can’t argue it was an accident, or he would have already done so and returned the documents. White House counsel warned him taking these documents could be a crimes. He lied about returning the documents. He lied to the archives about even having these documents. Now he’s complaining that they “were cooperating”. The facts say differently.

Unlike Nixon, this is the crime AND the coverup.

Keep an eye on the news today, should be interesting!
 

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