Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[AG_PhamD]

Like most things in the Middle East, it's not black or white. I'm very much aware of the reality in Israel and the region — I've been there several times, have family throughout the country, and have listened to Israelis and Palestinians. Yes, Hamas is deeply embedded in Gaza and operates from apartments, schools, and other civilian buildings. They're evil, and they have no care for human life, including the Palestinians they're supposed to be governing.

But I think you're underestimating the difficulty of moving more than a million civilians from north to south Gaza, despite the short distance by our standards. For one thing, they're navigating bombed-out streets that are difficult to pass whether by car, carriage, or on foot. I just saw a report of a convoy attack that resulted in about 70 deaths. Unclear whether it was an errant Israeli missile or bomb, or even done by Hamas for propaganda, it's horrible for the people involved. I also worry what will happen to the main hospital in Gaza City when the ground offensive begins. It's good that it hasn't begun yet, despite Israel's stated deadline — I hope they're intentionally giving the refugees more time to leave.

Egypt could help by opening its border crossing with Gaza, but they haven't so far and probably won't. Perhaps some of the gulf states that have some sort of relationship with Hamas can do something, though I'm not hopeful.

I don’t mean to minimize the physical/logistical not to mention psychological challenges involved with moving in a war zone. It’s hard to get people to evacuate areas in the US in preparation of impending severe weather. My point was to say that some people are talking about moving like it’s the Oregon trail, Gaza is the size of Denver. Realistically most people would have to move at most 5-6-7 miles to leave Gaza City. Though the question arises where do these people live and how are they supported- though the same questions may apply for those who stay as well. Israel is giving fair warning that Gaza City is going to become an even more dangerous place and it’s in civilians best interest to evacuate the area. Certainly not everyone is not willing or able to move, but Hamas preventing movement of those who are is just par for the course.

And it’s also worth considering, 300k+ young men and women (<40 years old) have been called into service. People who were only days ago regular civilians. Without a doubt a ground invasion of Gaza is extremely dangerous. It’s no surprise invading causes much more casualties than defending. This will will be a bloody battle for the Israeli military, including many who had no desire for a military career- Along with Gazan civilians who have been and will inevitably be caught in the crossfire.

Egypt won’t take in refugees because 1. They don’t want to end up getting stuck with a bunch of refugees for the rest of time. 2. They don’t want to risk bringing violent extremism into their country 3. Taking in refugees may erase the prospect of a 2 state solution if Israel can then expect to push Palestinians into Egypt.

Reportedly the US, Israel, and Egypt made arrangements so that Americans and American-Palestinian dual citizens in Gaza could evacuate through the Egyptian border. I was watching MSNBC and the host was asking some IDF official why they were hearing that the border was still closed and demanded to know when it would be open (as if Israel has any control over that border?). According to the IDF, which needs be independently verified, Hamas is not allowing their border with Egypt to open.

There is no question this war is and will continue to be a travesty for Palestinian civilians and for that I feel horrible. I can only hope that Israel wiping Hamas off the planet will not only prevent another heinous attack like the other day, but also provide the Palestinians the opportunity to elect new leadership who can peacefully represent their desire for self determination, advance Gazan society and quality of life, and succeed in creating peace in the region. I think that’s the only positive way to look at this otherwise awful situation.

I was in Israel in 2012 when Hamas was firing off rockets which for the most part were thankfully intercepted. That’s the closest I’ve been to a war zone but I can say I wouldn’t wish the experience upon anyone.

 

[Eric]

It's okay folks, they only beheaded some of the babies.

 

[Huntn]

It's okay folks, they only beheaded some of the babies.

View attachment 26681

Accurate reporting is good unless it comes across as excuse making.

 

[Huntn]

That’s what happens when you live under an oppressive, fundamentalist regime who indoctrinates children into their radical ideology. They are taught Jews are evil and subhuman, and that Allah and their state will reward them for killing Jews. Take a look at the children’s school books promoting antisemitism and the videos of children committing to martyrdom. They are not just taught Israelis must be obliterated along with Israel, it’s that all Jews worldwide must die. It’s really disgusting stuff- not only the promotion of antisemitism but to program such murderous and suicidal beliefs into young children. Truly unfathomable.

And the fact people in the west are celebrating Hamas accomplishments- chanting “death to Jews”, “gas the Jews”… I thought the sane people of the western world had largely moved on from this.

My impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that under Israeli rules, Palestinians are somewhere between second class citizens and oppressed in a variety of economic ways for the sake of Israeli security. I remember as far back as the 1980s this kind of reporting. Yeah, so kids are being taught to hate Israel. Is this a surprise? (Not an accusation).

There has to some element of reaping what you sew which has gone on for decades. The terrorist or the freedom fighter, it depends on which which side you lean. I think I’ve made my position clear, that both sides are playing a role in this ongoing tragedy that started when the UN decided to enable the creation of Israel at the expense of Palestine. It’s that simple.

And while I can never condone the manner Hamas approached it’s attack, I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians. And while I sympathies when Israel suffers, I’m critical of their treatment of Palestine. It’s almost as if thinking that keeping the Palestinians beaten down will solve their problems. Oppression begets violence, violence begets more violence, back and forth, an endless cycle then you have to consider who you think is more justified or who is more to blame. And we will be there protecting Israel… so this is costing us too.

If you are not going to kill off the all the Palestinians, without a 2 State solution, with continued oppression, Israel will continue to face violence unless they deem it appropriate to kill off all the Palestinians …for their security. And the rest of the world will judge them, and other Arab/Muslim countries will hate and possibly take action against them. It sounds untenable to me.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

I just came across this video and would be curious to hear reaction to it:

Free Palestine? No thanks! (The Israeli perspective you've probably never heard.)

 

[mac_in_tosh]

WTF does Iran have to do with Israel other than its leaders have some fanatical religious objection to there being non-Moslems in the Middle East? I was friendly with several Iranian students when I was in school. They were decent people. Unfortunately their country is run by religious fanatics who feel no hypocrisy to criticize Israel over Palestinian rights when they deny them to half of their own population, namely women. We've heard recently how they are treated after being imprisoned for the "crime" of not covering their head in public.

 

[Cmaier]

It's okay folks, they only beheaded some of the babies.

View attachment 26681

True. Some were just shot in the back of the head execution style, and some were burned alive. Nothing to see here.

 

[Roller]

I don’t mean to minimize the physical/logistical not to mention psychological challenges involved with moving in a war zone. It’s hard to get people to evacuate areas in the US in preparation of impending severe weather. My point was to say that some people are talking about moving like it’s the Oregon trail, Gaza is the size of Denver. Realistically most people would have to move at most 5-6-7 miles to leave Gaza City. Though the question arises where do these people live and how are they supported- though the same questions may apply for those who stay as well. Israel is giving fair warning that Gaza City is going to become an even more dangerous place and it’s in civilians best interest to evacuate the area. Certainly not everyone is not willing or able to move, but Hamas preventing movement of those who are is just par for the course.

And it’s also worth considering, 300k+ young men and women (<40 years old) have been called into service. People who were only days ago regular civilians. Without a doubt a ground invasion of Gaza is extremely dangerous. It’s no surprise invading causes much more casualties than defending. This will will be a bloody battle for the Israeli military, including many who had no desire for a military career- Along with Gazan civilians who have been and will inevitably be caught in the crossfire.

Egypt won’t take in refugees because 1. They don’t want to end up getting stuck with a bunch of refugees for the rest of time. 2. They don’t want to risk bringing violent extremism into their country 3. Taking in refugees may erase the prospect of a 2 state solution if Israel can then expect to push Palestinians into Egypt.

Reportedly the US, Israel, and Egypt made arrangements so that Americans and American-Palestinian dual citizens in Gaza could evacuate through the Egyptian border. I was watching MSNBC and the host was asking some IDF official why they were hearing that the border was still closed and demanded to know when it would be open (as if Israel has any control over that border?). According to the IDF, which needs be independently verified, Hamas is not allowing their border with Egypt to open.

There is no question this war is and will continue to be a travesty for Palestinian civilians and for that I feel horrible. I can only hope that Israel wiping Hamas off the planet will not only prevent another heinous attack like the other day, but also provide the Palestinians the opportunity to elect new leadership who can peacefully represent their desire for self determination, advance Gazan society and quality of life, and succeed in creating peace in the region. I think that’s the only positive way to look at this otherwise awful situation.

I was in Israel in 2012 when Hamas was firing off rockets which for the most part were thankfully intercepted. That’s the closest I’ve been to a war zone but I can say I wouldn’t wish the experience upon anyone.

I wonder if Israel's stated objective to wipe Hamas off the face of the Earth (or some equivalent phrase) is feasible at this point. By now, I suspect most of the Hamas terrorists who previously occupied north Gaza have relocated to the south or to underground shelters and tunnels. Rooting them out is going to be extremely difficult, even if Israel flattens every building, which would make the humanitarian crisis even worse. To accomplish their goal, they'd have to obliterate the subterranean network, and that's proven very challenging in the past.

It's good that Israel has held off on their ground attack to let Palestinians evacuate, but unfortunately they have nowhere to go but the south. I also have read that Hamas is preventing border crossings at Rafah, which shows their disregard for Palestinians, though I agree with you that Egypt doesn't really want them. For that matter, they're not even permitting Americans and other foreign nationals to leave, despite Egypt's apparent acceptance. Meanwhile, I want to see Israel allow for increased provision of necessities like water, gas, electricity, and medical supplies to Gaza.

I'm concerned that Iran, through Hezbollah, will open a second front from Lebanon, which would strain the IDF despite the massive call-up, and that's without an increase in hostilities from the West Bank. I'm hoping that the presence of two U.S. aircraft carrier groups in the Mediterranean will deter that. As well, continued progress toward normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which Iran wants to derail, would help counter Iran.

 

[dada_dave]

Hey an actual positive development!

 

[AG_PhamD]

I wonder if Israel's stated objective to wipe Hamas off the face of the Earth (or some equivalent phrase) is feasible at this point. By now, I suspect most of the Hamas terrorists who previously occupied north Gaza have relocated to the south or to underground shelters and tunnels. Rooting them out is going to be extremely difficult, even if Israel flattens every building, which would make the humanitarian crisis even worse. To accomplish their goal, they'd have to obliterate the subterranean network, and that's proven very challenging in the past.

It's good that Israel has held off on their ground attack to let Palestinians evacuate, but unfortunately they have nowhere to go but the south. I also have read that Hamas is preventing border crossings at Rafah, which shows their disregard for Palestinians, though I agree with you that Egypt doesn't really want them. For that matter, they're not even permitting Americans and other foreign nationals to leave, despite Egypt's apparent acceptance. Meanwhile, I want to see Israel allow for increased provision of necessities like water, gas, electricity, and medical supplies to Gaza.

I'm concerned that Iran, through Hezbollah, will open a second front from Lebanon, which would strain the IDF despite the massive call-up, and that's without an increase in hostilities from the West Bank. I'm hoping that the presence of two U.S. aircraft carrier groups in the Mediterranean will deter that. As well, continued progress toward normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which Iran wants to derail, would help counter Iran.

I think it’s possible in the same way that the west has battled various terrorist groups- it will take a very long time and require substantial resources. And something else will inevitably take their place (though they may not be the elected government).

I would hope that the leadership of Hamas is dismantled quickly so that the followers have no one to direct them. Gaza can then hopefully form a new, more peace oriented government. If Hamas or a similar terror group reforms, hopefully Gaza could deal with them. As it stands now the PLO in the West Bank isn’t exactly best friends with Hamas (PLO isn’t as religiously radical) and although they won’t say it, are probably extremely unhappy with their recent behavior.

Regardless, it’s not going to be a quick or easy task, but at least in the future they won’t have the resources of a government to carry out their attacks and squander foreign aid money building tunnels and bombs and paying civilians to get themselves killed.

It will be interesting to see how Gaza is governed post invasion. If elections are held will they be seen as legitimate? What happens if another violent government is elected? Maybe an international body will assume leadership for some time. Maybe Israel will occupy (literally) Gaza as they did pre-2006 for the longterm- though I don’t think the majority of Israelis ideally want to have anything to do with that.

 

[Roller]

I think it’s possible in the same way that the west has battled various terrorist groups- it will take a very long time and require substantial resources. And something else will inevitably take their place (though they may not be the elected government).

I would hope that the leadership of Hamas is dismantled quickly so that the followers have no one to direct them. Gaza can then hopefully form a new, more peace oriented government. If Hamas or a similar terror group reforms, hopefully Gaza could deal with them. As it stands now the PLO in the West Bank isn’t exactly best friends with Hamas (PLO isn’t as religiously radical) and although they won’t say it, are probably extremely unhappy with their recent behavior.

Regardless, it’s not going to be a quick or easy task, but at least in the future they won’t have the resources of a government to carry out their attacks and squander foreign aid money building tunnels and bombs and paying civilians to get themselves killed.

It will be interesting to see how Gaza is governed post invasion. If elections are held will they be seen as legitimate? What happens if another violent government is elected? Maybe an international body will assume leadership for some time. Maybe Israel will occupy (literally) Gaza as they did pre-2006 for the longterm- though I don’t think the majority of Israelis ideally want to have anything to do with that.

Good question. I'm fairly certain Israel wants no part in occupying or governing Gaza long-term. But they're not going to accede to another terrorist group doing that, either, assuming they can actually destroy Hamas's ability to operate. Reportedly, Hamas's political leaders live in Qatar, and Israel isn't about to attack there.

If the Israelis achieve their military objectives, an election under the supervision of regional Arab countries plus some international partners would be worth considering, but who would run? I don't imagine the PLO wants this on their plate.

 

[Huntn]

It has been claimed from several sources that Nietinyahu was warned in advance about this attack, by several countries and instead went on vacation. I would not be surprised if his attitude was “let them, then we have justification to destroy them, all of them.”

 

[dada_dave]

But now walked back:

 

[GermanSuplex]

It’s official, Biden will visit Israel.

President Joe Biden will visit Israel, US Secretary of State Blinken says — CNN Politics

US President Joe Biden will visit Israel on Wednesday, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken announced in the early hours of Tuesday in Tel Aviv.

apple.news

 

[Alli]

Meanwhile, I want to see Israel allow for increased provision of necessities like water, gas, electricity, and medical supplies to Gaza.

There is still the question of who pays for the utilities going into Gaza. That has always been up the PA, who are now under control of Hamas.

 

[Eric]

And here comes Iran.

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

www.aljazeera.com

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war​

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

 

[Huntn]

I think it’s possible in the same way that the west has battled various terrorist groups- it will take a very long time and require substantial resources. And something else will inevitably take their place (though they may not be the elected government).

I would hope that the leadership of Hamas is dismantled quickly so that the followers have no one to direct them. Gaza can then hopefully form a new, more peace oriented government. If Hamas or a similar terror group reforms, hopefully Gaza could deal with them. As it stands now the PLO in the West Bank isn’t exactly best friends with Hamas (PLO isn’t as religiously radical) and although they won’t say it, are probably extremely unhappy with their recent behavior.

Regardless, it’s not going to be a quick or easy task, but at least in the future they won’t have the resources of a government to carry out their attacks and squander foreign aid money building tunnels and bombs and paying civilians to get themselves killed.

It will be interesting to see how Gaza is governed post invasion. If elections are held will they be seen as legitimate? What happens if another violent government is elected? Maybe an international body will assume leadership for some time. Maybe Israel will occupy (literally) Gaza as they did pre-2006 for the longterm- though I don’t think the majority of Israelis ideally want to have anything to do with that.

You mean see how a pile of rubble is governed?

 

[Citysnaps]

And here comes Iran.

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

www.aljazeera.com

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war​

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

Perhaps Iran is feeling a little left out and under-valued not having a US carrier strike group off their coast in the Persian Gulf?

That can be fixed.

 

[dada_dave]

And here comes Iran.

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

www.aljazeera.com

Iran warns of ‘preemptive’ action against Israel amid Gaza war​

Tehran has warned that a ground offensive on the besieged Gaza Strip would be met with a response from other fronts.

Perhaps Iran is feeling a little left out and under-valued not having a US carrier strike group off their coast in the Persian Gulf?

That can be fixed.

Putting the caveat I mentioned above aside (that we can't always gauge the internal logic of a different group), I'm hoping this is just a ploy to draw Israel's resources away from the Gaza fight. If they feel they have to defend their northern border more than if Iran wasn't making these threats (presumably on the behalf of Hezbollah), then Israel will have fewer troops for the Gaza operation making that operation that much harder. Similarly, even though an attack from Belarus is unlikely, Ukraine can't completely ignore the possibility and leave their north and capitol completely undefended while trying to liberate the South. In contrast, Russia has, as we've seen pretty much emptied its garrisons within Russia and even the NATO border regions because it knows NATO isn't a threat and knows Ukraine has been largely restricted from attacking Russian territory beyond a few raids/drone strikes. That's my hope anyway rather than Iran being serious about opening a second front to the war. Of course, it would be a mistake for Israel to assume that which is why such a ploy works in the first place.

 

[dada_dave]

Again, more good news, hopefully can save lives.