Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[Roller]

What I know is decades of reporting , about how Palestinians have been relegated to second class status by Israel because they want to feel secure. However, this all started before I was born, so it’s easy to speak in terms of hindsight. It has to seem completely obvious at this point that creating the Jewish State in Palestine was a mistake. As previously stated I blame the US, UK, and UN for choosing Israelis over Palestinians, specifically the UK who controlled the area and enabled this to happen, but keep reading.

The argument was their own State would make them safer, but they took land from Palestinians to do this, which was against International law. So have they been safer Ever? My wife tells me the UK did not want to participate in the creation of a Jewish state, because they wanted to maintain good relations with the Arab States. and that the USA did not really want it either, but they ended up supporting it. (I’m unclear about this ). In addition the Arab states threatened to attack Israel from the get go.

The Jews did not have a state before then, it would have been better Imo to absorb them in the countries in existence after WWII, their choice. My wife tells me there were other places they were offered to settle. I’m happy to listen to any counters about how well this is working out, after 5 wars?

Today basically declaring war on Northern Gaza is a mistake. If you commit war crimes in response to war crimes, how can you say you are better, other than you did not start this round, but we still have to consider the last 70 years. All in all it’s a bad situation, and I do have sympathy for modern Israelis living a never ending nightmare. But to be fair, they are not the only ones suffering in the region or in the world.

Btw, do you realize how much Israel costs the United States? These conflicts cost us greatly, with the argument, we can’t even fiscally afford to look after ourselves. We could so some fantastic things for infrastructure with $3.8B.

Israel-Gaza: How much money does Israel get from the US?

Israel gets billions of dollars in US aid - we look at why, and what that money is used for.

www.bbc.com

The US Money Tree: The Untold Story of American Aid to Israel | Common Dreams

Expecting the US to play a constructive role in achieving a just peace in Palestine does not only reflect indefensible naivety but willful ignorance as well.

www.commondreams.org

I take it, then, you don't think the Jews deserve a homeland and should have been dispersed to the countries they had lived in after WW II. Are you aware of the persecution Jews have faced throughout history? Time after time, being alternately tolerated and then expelled, only to have six million (more than a third of the worldwide Jewish population in 1939) slaughtered in the Holocaust. The current total is around 15 million, which is less than the population of many cities.

That's the lens through which the decision to found Israel must be considered. You're right about security, but it didn't have to be that way. Had the Palestinians and Arab states accepted the U.N. partition plan or something similar to it, the Palestinians would now occupy a sovereign country of their own. But here we are, 75 years later, with Israel looking very different than it did in 1948. Should Israeli Jews just pack up and immigrate to places that often don't want them, especially given the rising tide of antisemitism, including in the U.S. Put yourself in the position of Jews who watched thugs storming the Capitol wearing a "Camp Auschwitz" T-shirt and other Nazi symbols, or hearing marchers in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us."

I've said here before that I am solidly against the way Palestinians have been treated, but that goes for Israel and Hamas, the elected government in Gaza that doesn't care about its constituents. There are certainly some Israelis who want to perpetuate the status quo, but I believe the majority would much rather live peacefully with and next to a state where Palestinians can thrive. That would be possible if the wealthy Arab countries committed to it.

As for your suggestion that aid given to Israel isn't worth it, consider the many accomplishments and inventions by Israelis over decades. Although some of them might have happened had the people involved lived elsewhere, I believe many came to fruition because of Israel's strong commitment to technological development, something I've had personal experience with.

 

[GermanSuplex]

I truly don’t get the hatred. Of anyone really, but especially this whole thing against Jews. It’s quite bizarre. Perhaps in only the regions we are seeing now, the conflict has to do with a lot beyond religion. But the antisemitism worldwide? Do half of these skinheads and self-professed Nazis in America even know history or understand who they are hating or why they are hating them? Or is it just a tradition for morons that’s passed down and based on nothing?

It’s as infuriatingly stupid as it is evil and vile.

 

[Huntn]

I take it, then, you don't think the Jews deserve a homeland and should have been dispersed to the countries they had lived in after WW II. Are you aware of the persecution Jews have faced throughout history? Time after time, being alternately tolerated and then expelled, only to have six million (more than a third of the worldwide Jewish population in 1939) slaughtered in the Holocaust. The current total is around 15 million, which is less than the population of many cities.

That's the lens through which the decision to found Israel must be considered. You're right about security, but it didn't have to be that way. Had the Palestinians and Arab states accepted the U.N. partition plan or something similar to it, the Palestinians would now occupy a sovereign country of their own. But here we are, 75 years later, with Israel looking very different than it did in 1948. Should Israeli Jews just pack up and immigrate to places that often don't want them, especially given the rising tide of antisemitism, including in the U.S. Put yourself in the position of Jews who watched thugs storming the Capitol wearing a "Camp Auschwitz" T-shirt and other Nazi symbols, or hearing marchers in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us."

I've said here before that I am solidly against the way Palestinians have been treated, but that goes for Israel and Hamas, the elected government in Gaza that doesn't care about its constituents. There are certainly some Israelis who want to perpetuate the status quo, but I believe the majority would much rather live peacefully with and next to a state where Palestinians can thrive. That would be possible if the wealthy Arab countries committed to it.

As for your suggestion that aid given to Israel isn't worth it, consider the many accomplishments and inventions by Israelis over decades. Although some of them might have happened had the people involved lived elsewhere, I believe many came to fruition because of Israel's strong commitment to technological development, something I've had personal experience with.

I don’t want to fight about this, I expressed my opinion, I don’t condone what Hamas has done, they’ve upped the anti, but I’m not going to give Israel a free pass either. And don‘t try to put words into in my mouth. My understanding is that other places were suggested but were rejected by the Jewish representative in favor of Palestine which was the absolute worst place. Besides taking over half of Palestine, an act against international law, (which since Israel has upped to 77%) both locals locals and surrounding countries were against this location and were dead set against a Jewish state in Palestine. War has been declared multiple times because of it. I’ve got it, let’s designate Georgia the new Jewish State and have all the Geogrians vacate, yeah no problem, no pushback there… .

Regarding $3B a year, we desperately need to get our infrastructure fixed up.. It’s all about priorities.

 

[Roller]

I don’t want to fight about this, I expressed my opinion, I don’t condone what Hamas has done, but I’m not going to give Israel a free pass either. And don‘t try to put words into in my mouth. My understanding is that other places were suggested but were rejected by the Jewish representative in favor of Palestine which was the absolute worst place. Besides taking over half of Palestine, an act against international law, (which since Israel has upped to 77%) both locals locals and surrounding countries were against this location and were dead set against a Jewish state in Palestine. War has been declared multiple times because of it. I’ve got it, let’s designate Georgia the new Jewish State and have all the Geogrians vacate, yeah no problem, no pushback there… .

Regarding $3B a year, we desperately need to get our infrastructure fixed up.. It’s all about priorities.

Fair enough — I won't continue the discussion with you. (I think we tend to agree on most other topics.)

 

[Herdfan]

Fair enough — I won't continue the discussion with you. (I think we tend to agree on most other topics.)

Well here, I will freak you out - I agree with almost everything you have posted on this subject.

 

[Huntn]

Fair enough — I won't continue the discussion with you. (I think we tend to agree on most other topics.)

I appreciate being able to keep this civil. I having nothing against Jews, because they are Jews. I judge people hopefully based on their actions and therefor harshly condemn Hamas for such an over the top escalation of violence, but then I’ll get to watch a million Palestinians be brutalized in return. It’s a tragedy of which the total scope is yet unknown.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Fixing to get ugly. Amazing how sometimes hindsight is 20/20 but everything is normal one day and then there’s a war of epic tragedy, proportions and implications the next. Because it’s not at home for me, it’s not the same as 9/11, but it’s pretty damn close.

To think that there were holocaust survivors among the victims of this attack.

The barbarism proves it’s not about a religious agenda. You can argue a person willing to blow themselves up may be devoted to a cause, even an evil or wrong one. There’s nothing that shooting or beheading infants is done in devotion to.

 

[AG_PhamD]

The harsh conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and later the US Great Depresign were what drove Germans to the Nazi Party. It wasn’t just one long antisemitism parade. The average German was actually horrified by the Nazi’s early violent attacks on Jews so they briefly dialed it back until it became crystal clear anybody defending the Jews would be dealt with harshly. It’s shockingly inexcusable and irresponsible that the Israeli government would create these same conditions in Palestine when the world isn’t looking. They should know better than anybody else on earth. I’m afraid to find out how they teach history.

I disagree with many of the actions Israel has taken in regards to settlements and the destruction of Palestinian homes. As are many Israelis. Unfortunately Israel has a population of their own religious ideologues- many of whom are subsidized by the govt, pay little in taxes, and produce a large amount of children per capita- meaning they are a quickly growing minority. And this is despite them contributing little to society.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people need to understand Hamas is not some democratic, freedom seeking society. They are an oppressive dictatorship that affords no rights to their own citizens. They squander foreign aid by enriching the ruling class and smuggling and improvising weapons. Had Hamas actually used foreign aid to benefit their society as intended, there’s no reason they couldn’t be an advanced society like Israel. I just saw a video of where Hamas had purportedly removed large water mains in Gaza to build bombs.

But to be entirely fair, historically speaking anyways, other Arab nations in the past have encouraged Palestine not to accept any peace deals because they would help fight Israel. History of course has turned out differently.

Fundamentally Palestine does not accept Israel’s right to exist and regardless of treatment throughout history has always wished to carryout the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.

 

[Roller]

Just watched an interview with a former Israeli negotiator on MSNBC. He characterized the ongoing blockade of Gaza and Israel’s ultimatum that people in north Gaza move to the south as intolerable. I agree. Israel can’t obliterate Hamas without destroying Gaza and killing or injuring many Palestinians.

It’s similar to what’s happened during previous incursions, but far greater in scale and scope. I don’t think Israel deliberately kills civilians, but it’s no better if they lose their lives as “collateral damage.” For a supporter of Israel, it’s horrifying. I think this was Hamas’s objective.

 

[Huntn]

Fixing to get ugly. Amazing how sometimes hindsight is 20/20 but everything is normal one day and then there’s a war of epic tragedy, proportions and implications the next. Because it’s not at home for me, it’s not the same as 9/11, but it’s pretty damn close.

To think that there were holocaust survivors among the victims of this attack.

The barbarism proves it’s not about a religious agenda. You can argue a person willing to blow themselves up may be devoted to a cause, even an evil or wrong one. There’s nothing that shooting or beheading infants is done in devotion to.

It’s hate, of which a discussion can be had about the causes of such chicken or egg hate.

In my view the Israelis went from oppressed to oppressors when they were attacked frequently, hence an extremely poor choice for a homeland.* They faced war almost immediately. From then on in “our security mode”, they have oppressed the Palestinians to keep themselves secure and they have refused to address the Palestinian’s situation, which has become, “sorry this is your lot in life so we can be safe”, not realizing, not caring, or thinking there is no other option for their security. They tossed the idea of a two State solution. This all goes back to the location of the Jewish State, a dreadful error that insured decades of strife, and death.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

 

[Eric]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that there are so many people, prior to this attack, who had it in them to rape women and murder children/babies. They must have fantasized about such activities, we would think no normal person would ever be so terrible but here we are with an entire army full of them. Who TF would ever want to bring a child into such a horrible world.

Israel is at least attempting to target known terrorist strongholds and while it's hard to reconcile what they deem as acceptable losses, you also get why they have to do it.

 

[Roller]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that there are so many people, prior to this attack, who had it in them to rape women and murder children/babies. They must have fantasized about such activities, we would think no normal person would ever be so terrible but here we are with an entire army full of them. Who TF would ever want to bring a child into such a horrible world.

Israel is at least attempting to target known terrorist strongholds and while it's hard to reconcile what they deem as acceptable losses, you also get why they have to do it.

Human cruelty has known no bounds throughout history, and Hamas is no exception. Yes, it’s disgusting and hard to understand from our perspective.

Israel definitely has the right and obligation to its people to respond. But how to do so is constrained by the dispersal of Hamas among Gaza’s population. What is Israel to do if a Hamas cell occupies the same building as Palestinian families?

Having said that, I question whether the extent of Israel’s aerial bombardment, which has been much more intense than in previous episodes, is justified. I also ask whether there are alternative approaches that would minimize Palestinian casualties, especially children.

 

[dada_dave]

Human cruelty has known no bounds throughout history, and Hamas is no exception. Yes, it’s disgusting and hard to understand from our perspective.

Israel definitely has the right and obligation to its people to respond. But how to do so is constrained by the dispersal of Hamas among Gaza’s population. What is Israel to do if a Hamas cell occupies the same building as Palestinian families?

Having said that, I question whether the extent of Israel’s aerial bombardment, which has been much more intense than in previous episodes, is justified. I also ask whether there are alternative approaches that would minimize Palestinian casualties, especially children.

We also shouldn't let Egypt off the hook. They could supply humanitarian aid through their side of the border, they could try to allow refugees and provide services. So far, they're choosing not to do so.

We also shouldn't let the Qataris or others harboring Hamas leadership off the hook either. They aren't going to give them up and Qatar is nominally a US ally. In years past I wouldn't have doubted Israel's ability to get to them anyway, but it turns out right-wing governments for all their performative ruthlessness, by prioritizing cronyism over competence, tend to gut things like the Intelligence and Military. We can only hope that hasn't been true in this case.

This may be all out of date but this was the state of play last night and I'm too tired and upset to check this morning. I know the US is trying to apply pressure to get refugees out and get states that are "allies" in the region to hand over Hamas leadership. Hopefully they will succeed soon.

 

[dada_dave]

We also shouldn't let Egypt off the hook. They could supply humanitarian aid through their side of the border, they could try to allow refugees and provide services. So far, they're choosing not to do so.

We also shouldn't let the Qataris or others harboring Hamas leadership off the hook either. They aren't going to give them up and Qatar is nominally a US ally. In years past I wouldn't have doubted Israel's ability to get to them anyway, but it turns out right-wing governments for all their performative ruthlessness, by prioritizing cronyism over competence, tend to gut things like the Intelligence and Military. We can only hope that hasn't been true in this case.

This may be all out of date but this was the state of play last night and I'm too tired and upset to check this morning. I know the US is trying to apply pressure to get refugees out and get states that are "allies" in the region to hand over Hamas leadership. Hopefully they will succeed soon.

I couldn't help myself and checked. There has been some movement, but unfortunately not much:

May be an opening for more, may be all we're going to get (ah ... see *Edit below).

Clean water has reportedly run out in Gaza according the UN.

2.1 million people, 40% children. No clean water. That's not targeting Hamas.

But of course Hamas are in it too:

Fog of war and all that, but would anyone be surprised? Again, Hamas want as many Palestinians to die as possible. And Israel appears to be stupidly obliging them. After 9/11 our illustrious Dubya government did everything it could to fuck up the response and created a humanitarian catastrophe in Iraq and completely failed Afghanistan ... you'd think even right wing assholes like Likud would look at the consequences of that and say "nah, we'll be smarter even if we aren't nicer", but no.

*Edit: I'm having trouble making out what this means, but it seems to be saying that maybe the agreement mentioned up top isn't even in place after all?

At least people are still talking ... I guess.

Smartest thing Netanyahu has done so far and so far Hezbollah seems to be doing the minimum to attack Israel without provoking a full scale response and Israel seems to be shooting back with a minimum of escalatory intent (people, including civilians, are still dying on both sides still, keep that at mind, neither are exchanging fire at empty ground - it just so far doesn't look like it's breaking out into full scale war)

 

[dada_dave]

Iran is now threatening to get involved directly if the war continues. It may just be saber rattling for now. After all there are a couple of aircraft carriers waiting to say hi. And they'd be kissing Assad goodbye (literally the only positive to wider war is that fucker would probably be amongst the first to fall, trouble is everyone else of course).

 

[AG_PhamD]

Iran is now threatening to get involved directly if the war continues. It may just be saber rattling for now. After all there are a couple of aircraft carriers waiting to say hi. And they'd be kissing Assad goodbye (literally the only positive to wider war is that fucker would probably be amongst the first to fall, trouble is everyone else of course).

Frankly it seems rather silly for them to get involved if they do not yet have their nuclear weapon created- but who knows where they stand with that. If they get involved with Israel, the US will get involved and that will once again be the end of their nuclear aspirations for decades to come.

On the other hand, I have no doubt Israel would proactively strike Iran (including a nuclear strike of their own) if they had highly credible on a nuclear attack by Iran. Given the size of Israel, a nuclear strike quite literally becomes an existential threat.

It seems very suspicious both the Israelis and US are continuously saying they have no intel on Iranian involvement- despite a lot of now public statements and info. It seems to me like a diplomatic effort to prevent additional conflict at this point in time.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Just watched an interview with a former Israeli negotiator on MSNBC. He characterized the ongoing blockade of Gaza and Israel’s ultimatum that people in north Gaza move to the south as intolerable. I agree. Israel can’t obliterate Hamas without destroying Gaza and killing or injuring many Palestinians.

It’s similar to what’s happened during previous incursions, but far greater in scale and scope. I don’t think Israel deliberately kills civilians, but it’s no better if they lose their lives as “collateral damage.” For a supporter of Israel, it’s horrifying. I think this was Hamas’s objective.

It certainly is a challenge to move all civilians to southern Gaza, but let’s remember Gaza is about 25 miles north to south, the size of 2 DC’s. It’s not like we’re talking about moving from Maine to Florida. Naturally Hamas has not only told citizens not to move, but have reportedly setup checkpoints to prevent movement to safety

Some people fail to recognize that a Hamas intentionally chooses to launch attacks from populated areas and from buildings associated with civilian infrastructure. If Hamas is launching rockets from the roof of a school, is Israel just supposed to accept the risk to Israeli civilian's? Air defenses like iron dome are not 100% effective and projectiles headed for less populated areas may not be intercepted at all as there are only so many interceptor missiles. The alternative is to risk soldiers with a tactical operation, but the turn around time for that to occur means the terrorists will be gone by the time they arrive. Apparently Israel is just supposed to accept being bombarded without the right to neutralize the source.

Israel is not guilt free over the past 70 years but I’m tired of this double standard saying Israel is running an open air prison with no regard for human life (meanwhile ignoring Egypt) while Palestine/Hamas can do no wrong and would otherwise be the pinnacle of peace freedom in the Middle East. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that there are so many people, prior to this attack, who had it in them to rape women and murder children/babies. They must have fantasized about such activities, we would think no normal person would ever be so terrible but here we are with an entire army full of them. Who TF would ever want to bring a child into such a horrible world.

Israel is at least attempting to target known terrorist strongholds and while it's hard to reconcile what they deem as acceptable losses, you also get why they have to do it.

That’s what happens when you live under an oppressive, fundamentalist regime who indoctrinates children into their radical ideology. They are taught Jews are evil and subhuman, and that Allah and their state will reward them for killing Jews. Take a look at the children’s school books promoting antisemitism and the videos of children committing to martyrdom. They are not just taught Israelis must be obliterated along with Israel, it’s that all Jews worldwide must die. It’s really disgusting stuff- not only the promotion of antisemitism but to program such murderous and suicidal beliefs into young children. Truly unfathomable.

And the fact people in the west are celebrating Hamas accomplishments- chanting “death to Jews”, “gas the Jews”… I thought the sane people of the western world had largely moved on from this.

 

[Roller]

It certainly is a challenge to move all civilians to southern Gaza, but let’s remember Gaza is about 25 miles north to south, the size of 2 DC’s. It’s not like we’re talking about moving from Maine to Florida. Naturally Hamas has not only told citizens not to move, but have reportedly setup checkpoints to prevent movement to safety

Some people fail to recognize that a Hamas intentionally chooses to launch attacks from populated areas and from buildings associated with civilian infrastructure. If Hamas is launching rockets from the roof of a school, is Israel just supposed to accept the risk to Israeli civilian's? Air defenses like iron dome are not 100% effective and projectiles headed for less populated areas may not be intercepted at all as there are only so many interceptor missiles. The alternative is to risk soldiers with a tactical operation, but the turn around time for that to occur means the terrorists will be gone by the time they arrive. Apparently Israel is just supposed to accept being bombarded without the right to neutralize the source.

Israel is not guilt free over the past 70 years but I’m tired of this double standard saying Israel is running an open air prison with no regard for human life (meanwhile ignoring Egypt) while Palestine/Hamas can do no wrong and would otherwise be the pinnacle of peace freedom in the Middle East. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

Like most things in the Middle East, it's not black or white. I'm very much aware of the reality in Israel and the region — I've been there several times, have family throughout the country, and have listened to Israelis and Palestinians. Yes, Hamas is deeply embedded in Gaza and operates from apartments, schools, and other civilian buildings. They're evil, and they have no care for human life, including the Palestinians they're supposed to be governing.

But I think you're underestimating the difficulty of moving more than a million civilians from north to south Gaza, despite the short distance by our standards. For one thing, they're navigating bombed-out streets that are difficult to pass whether by car, carriage, or on foot. I just saw a report of a convoy attack that resulted in about 70 deaths. Unclear whether it was an errant Israeli missile or bomb, or even done by Hamas for propaganda, it's horrible for the people involved. I also worry what will happen to the main hospital in Gaza City when the ground offensive begins. It's good that it hasn't begun yet, despite Israel's stated deadline — I hope they're intentionally giving the refugees more time to leave.

Egypt could help by opening its border crossing with Gaza, but they haven't so far and probably won't. Perhaps some of the gulf states that have some sort of relationship with Hamas can do something, though I'm not hopeful.

 

[dada_dave]

Frankly it seems rather silly for them to get involved if they do not yet have their nuclear weapon created- but who knows where they stand with that. If they get involved with Israel, the US will get involved and that will once again be the end of their nuclear aspirations for decades to come.

On the other hand, I have no doubt Israel would proactively strike Iran (including a nuclear strike of their own) if they had highly credible on a nuclear attack by Iran. Given the size of Israel, a nuclear strike quite literally becomes an existential threat.

It seems very suspicious both the Israelis and US are continuously saying they have no intel on Iranian involvement- despite a lot of now public statements and info. It seems to me like a diplomatic effort to prevent additional conflict at this point in time.

I agree that it seems unlikely but I think an object lesson of the last few years is that internal group think, especially in closed-off authoritarian regimes or terrorist groups, is extremely powerful and what may seem like an insane decision from the outside is deemed not just "rational" on the inside but optimal - sometimes because of factors than are unknown to the outside, sometimes because the weights and probabilities of events as calculated internally are completely different from what we calculate, and sometimes because the autocrat/leader decides to hit the "ah fuck it" button. That's why we're sending a second carrier group: let's make that calculation a little more obvious to everybody, "don't fuck up this situation even more than it is already".

As for the extent of Iran's involvement in the original terrorist attack, who knows? The more people that know a thing and have to coordinate with each other, the more likely it leaks. So it could be some people on the inside knew and were directly supporting and some had no idea. There are certainly indications that Iran might've known or pieces of them did, but there are others that make it seem like they (and Hezbollah) were caught almost as flatfooted as the IDF. Maybe they knew and were involved and right now we're covering to prevent a wider conflict (as well as the extent of our failures), maybe they knew and were involved and we don't have hard intel to accuse them (after all we basically missed the attack and while it feels like forever it's only been a few days), maybe they mostly didn't know (i.e. they had some notion, similar to the intel we and the Israelis had, that something was up, but the details including the scale was completely unknown), or maybe they had no clue and they're just winging it right now. Truthfully these are all distinct possibilities and I don't think there's enough to rule any of them out.