Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[Chew Toy McCoy]

And I saw this before I logged off. The ADL has a list that is not exhaustive. Frankly they're being kind by calling some of these groups "fringe" (some are). In the realm of shocking but not surprising, the fucking DSA has been pretty fucking bad. One prominent Congressman resigned from the DSA as a result of the DSA-NY's statement talking about how the terror attack was all about liberation of Palestine. Fucking ghouls. I think DSA-SF had a particular horrifying take. Code Pink as well, but no one expects anything better from them anyway. One individual BLM chapters also justified it (not the organization as a whole as far as I can tell ), and even for those who didn't outright justify it there are a hell of lot of organization with weird anodyne statements with refusals to call what Hamas did terrorism. Just vague, we're sorry this is happening which is insulting to both Palestinians and Israelis. If you take the time to put out a statement, put out one that recognizes each group individually. They're people for fucks sake. There have also been rallies saying "gas the jews" in Sydney of all places I think it was, attacks on Jewish establishments pretty much everywhere, another rally in NYC mocking the dead concert goers ... it's a pretty bad list. Also there are a lot of students past and present who are pissed at that letter. Deservedly so as it was not signed by most of them, the organization leadership signed without consent of the students and some former students are getting harassed because they used to be members of those organizations even if they haven't been for years or currently are and reject the letter. Which brings me to: To be clear I have seen a couple of pretty terrible things the other direction beyond the harassment of students. That rally in NYC seems to have met a counter rally calling for the extermination of Gaza and I've seen a lot of Palestinian hate online and pro-peace Palestinian voices being harassed. There have been a few Republican lawmakers getting awfully close to using that language of extermination, e.g. Lindsey Graham calling it a religious war and to "level the place". Okay I got to get off for real my heart rate is through the roof.

Edit: sorry logged back on because I realized I deleted the link to the ADL website.

Thanks for all that info. I can admit when I’m out of the loop, but sometimes it feels like there’s somebody who has a list of groups or people waiting for a situation where they can go “I bet they’re going to have a bad take” and then unshockingly they do. And then the only reason you are aware of these groups or people is because of their mountain of bad takes that gets seeked out. I’m sure among these people and groups there are those who are just blanket “I’m anti-oppression!” and then dehumanize and distance themselves from the details of the actual event.

 

[Herdfan]

Seeing a few Twitter (not going to call it X) posts about attacks on the US tomorrow, Friday the 13th.

But not seeing anything in the news about it.

Anyone seeing any legit news source reporting this?

In any case, told the offspring (in LA) to stay home.

Depending on how this goes over the weekend, I may change my plans about going to the NLCS next week.

 

[Eric]

Seeing a few Twitter (not going to call it X) posts about attacks on the US tomorrow, Friday the 13th.

But not seeing anything in the news about it.

Anyone seeing any legit news source reporting this?

In any case, told the offspring (in LA) to stay home.

Depending on how this goes over the weekend, I may change my plans about going to the NLCS next week.

Probably because Twitter is a total shithole of misinformation with no reliable information that anyone can trust anymore.

 

[dada_dave]

Probably because Twitter is a total shithole of misinformation with no reliable information that anyone can trust anymore.

And not just misinformation.

I posted about this in the other thread about Twitter, but here again: there are extremely graphic images of what transpired. Because assholes are denying the worst part of the Hamas attacks several newspapers have chosen to publish some of the images (inside the fold). It shouldn't be necessary but we are where we are as a society. These images are likely to spread across social media. Please be extra careful. I have not seen them. I don't want to see them. People who have seen them have had said they are as bad as you could imagine and incredibly upsetting. I don't know which ones the Telegraph/other papers are showing. Twitter will likely be the worst due to its lack of content moderation and blue checks literally getting monetized for engagement. If you still use Twitter, you may want to stay off the algorithm for awhile.

 

[dada_dave]

Thanks for all that info. I can admit when I’m out of the loop, but sometimes it feels like there’s somebody who has a list of groups or people waiting for a situation where they can go “I bet they’re going to have a bad take” and then unshockingly they do. And then the only reason you are aware of these groups or people is because of their mountain of bad takes that gets seeked out. I’m sure among these people and groups there are those who are just blanket “I’m anti-oppression!” and then dehumanize and distance themselves from the details of the actual event.

While there are groups on that list who are non-entities, the DSA unfortunately is not. They should be, but they aren't.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Seeing a few Twitter (not going to call it X) posts about attacks on the US tomorrow, Friday the 13th.

But not seeing anything in the news about it.

Anyone seeing any legit news source reporting this?

In any case, told the offspring (in LA) to stay home.

Depending on how this goes over the weekend, I may change my plans about going to the NLCS next week.

I did hear this today, and I kid you not the person who told me is a Republican.

I did not believe it and still don’t.

 

[dada_dave]

Probably because Twitter is a total shithole of misinformation with no reliable information that anyone can trust anymore.

EU taking action

Failure to comply with the DSA can result in EU fines of as much as 6% of a company's global turnover, or potentially suspension of the service.
X has until 18 October to provide details on how its crisis response protocol is activated and functions, and until 31 October on other issues.
Mr Musk dissolved Twitter's Trust and Safety Council shortly after acquiring the company in 2022. Formed in 2016, the volunteer council contained about 100 independent groups who advised on issues such as self-harm, child abuse and hate speech.

 

[dada_dave]

I did hear this today, and I kid you not the person who told me is a Republican.

I did not believe it and still don’t.

Twitter is drowning in mis/disinformation right now. Videos/images of Russian attacks on Ukraine, Assadist attacks on Palestinian refugees, and Turkish use of white phosphorous on Syrian Kurds are being passed off as Israeli attacks on Palestinians - often by people who ignored or dismissed the crimes of Russians and the Assad regime, but they have no problem blaming the Israelis for them. Can't think what the difference might be ...

 

[Alli]

So it’s Jews > Palestinians… it was Palestinians who lost most of their land and who have been oppressed ever since by Israel, because the US, Brits, and UN decided that was ok. The Jews had no more of an historic claim over the Arabs who live there, so yes, their state was plopped down on top of the Palestinians.

How far back in history do you go to first hear mention of Palestine? How far back in history do you go to hear mention of Israel? Hint: It’s not 1948.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I think as long as people fail to separate Palestinians from Hamas we're not going to get anywhere here. Nothing justifies the actions of Hamas and IMO defending their actions is sympathizing with terrorists.

There's conversation to be had about a two-state solution and the unjust actions against Palestine and their land, but indiscriminate murder is not the way to handle it and it only turns the world against them and their plight. This is right up there with 9/11, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the Holocaust.

The problem is that (allegedly) 58% percent of Gazans support Hamas. Children are indoctrinated into radical beliefs where they are literally taught all Jews are bad and must be killed… and frankly that’s nothing compared to teaching children that martyrdom is righteous and they should be willing to blow themselves up to kill Jews and dignify Palestine.

That however does not mean civilians should be indiscriminately killed… even those who support their terrorist regime. But deprogramming adults who were raised and fervently believe the most radical ideas is a seemingly insurmountable task, especially while their government is run by people instilling such ideas.

 

[dada_dave]

The number of responses to this that I'm seeing online that boil down to either "Good! Fuck 'em" or "See Hamas was justified!" is just so very depressing. And Hamas is probably reveling. They want to drown the region in blood. They don't much care that most of it will be Palestinian. An IDF report from several years ago said it would take 5 years to reoccupy Gaza and indeed the last time Israel sent ground forces into Gaza to combat Hamas, it didn't go very well. However, obviously this time, it is a different scale of operation. But even if the IDF report was pessimistic, apparently mobilization is at 150%!, we're looking at another potentially very long, very bloody affair. The only silver lining is that it looks like Hezbollah is largely staying out of it (for now) which precludes a wider war (for now). But that situation is so fragile ... it wouldn't take much.

With all the horrors in the world it is really hard to keep in mind that literally right now we live in one of the least violent times in human history. That stat though is a cold fucking comfort to the average Israeli and Palestinian, or the average Ukrainian, or the average ... well take your pick of person from Myanmar, Sudan, Mali, Uyghur China, Syria ... I'm sure there are many more. I'm sure there will be many more. The sheer scale of human society and suffering are so high it is hard for us to comprehend. Our brains quite literally weren't built for it. I know not a new observation nor particularly deep. Still, it's the only thing as an outside observer to these conflicts sitting cozy in America I can hold onto that things can get better. That we have gotten better. But my God the cost has been so high and will continue to be.

 

[dada_dave]

While there are groups on that list who are non-entities, the DSA unfortunately is not. They should be, but they aren't.

Seeing a lot of this kind of thing from these kinds of people (and worse):

Note for clarity: I'm not talking about Jimmy Rushton but the account he is responding to, equating resistance to the horrors Hamas committed. Ukraine has done some fairly ruthless things, even paired with some fairly evil people (one of the two Russian units fighting for Ukraine really are neo-Nazis, I don't think the other one is). They haven't been "perfect", nobody could be, but they have largely kept their forces on a very tight leash despite what has been done to them and the threat they face. Of course they're a functioning state, but still.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The problem is that (allegedly) 58% percent of Gazans support Hamas. Children are indoctrinated into radical beliefs where they are literally taught all Jews are bad and must be killed… and frankly that’s nothing compared to teaching children that martyrdom is righteous and they should be willing to blow themselves up to kill Jews and dignify Palestine.

That however does not mean civilians should be indiscriminately killed… even those who support their terrorist regime. But deprogramming adults who were raised and fervently believe the most radical ideas is a seemingly insurmountable task, especially while their government is run by people instilling such ideas.

The harsh conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and later the US Great Depresign were what drove Germans to the Nazi Party. It wasn’t just one long antisemitism parade. The average German was actually horrified by the Nazi’s early violent attacks on Jews so they briefly dialed it back until it became crystal clear anybody defending the Jews would be dealt with harshly. It’s shockingly inexcusable and irresponsible that the Israeli government would create these same conditions in Palestine when the world isn’t looking. They should know better than anybody else on earth. I’m afraid to find out how they teach history.

 

[Huntn]

How far back in history do you go to first hear mention of Palestine? How far back in history do you go to hear mention of Israel? Hint: It’s not 1948.

I completely condemn Hamas’s actions and Israel’s reaction to flatten the Gaza Strip in retaliation. If you have war crimes commit against you and you commit war crimes in retaliation it’s lose lose. Israel orders the evacuation of 1.1 M people in 24 hours. Yea sure.

Some woman in Israel in an interview said, This is our second Holocaust, hardly. a complete misrepresentation. Yes, this attack was committed by people who hate Israel, but not in a vacuum.

I acknowledge it was the Holocaust, one of the most heinous acts in our relatively recent history, that made for this highly flawed decision, by Western powers, including those with a colonial presence making a decision that Palestinians could eat this and not complain regarding the creation of Israel. A decision that was met with violence from the start and ongoing ever since from people who had nothing to do with the Holocaust, but who have been arguably oppressed ever since. Hence my comment reaping what you sew.

 

[Roller]

I completely condemn Hamas’s actions and Israel’s reaction to flatten the Gaza Strip in retaliation. If you have war crimes commit against you and you commit war crimes in retaliation it’s lose lose. Israel orders the evacuation of 1.1 M people in 24 hours. Yea sure.

Some woman in Israel in an interview said, This is our second Holocaust, hardly. a complete misrepresentation. Yes, this attack was committed by people who hate Israel, but not in a vacuum.

I acknowledge it was the Holocaust, one of the most heinous acts in our relatively recent history, that made for this highly flawed decision, by Western powers, including those with a colonial presence making a decision that Palestinians could eat this and not complain regarding the creation of Israel. A decision that was met with violence from the start and ongoing ever since from people who had nothing to do with the Holocaust, but who have been arguably oppressed ever since. Hence my comment reaping what you sew.

Since you seem to know so much about the geopolitical landscape and history of the region, please let us know what your solutions would have been immediately after WW II and now.

 

[Alli]

I completely condemn Hamas’s actions and Israel’s reaction to flatten the Gaza Strip in retaliation. If you have war crimes commit against you and you commit war crimes in retaliation it’s lose lose. Israel orders the evacuation of 1.1 M people in 24 hours. Yea sure.

But can you answer the question? How far back do the states go? Which is older?

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Since you seem to know so much about the geopolitical landscape and history of the region, please let us know what your solutions would have been immediately after WW II and now.

This decision was the most convenient solution for the ally countries that didn't want a large influx of Jews added to their population which was most, if not all of them. It was a glossed-over antisemitic solution to a greater antisemitic atrocity.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That

The past week has shown humanity at its worst: A horrific terrorist attack left at least 1,300 Israelis dead, among them peace activists and even innocent children. The fates of many more kidnapped civilians still lie in the balance. Meanwhile, statements from Prime Minister Benjamin...

www.theonion.com

 

[Huntn]

Since you seem to know so much about the geopolitical landscape and history of the region, please let us know what your solutions would have been immediately after WW II and now.

What I know is decades of reporting , about how Palestinians have been relegated to second class status by Israel because they want to feel secure. However, this all started before I was born, so it’s easy to speak in terms of hindsight. It has to seem completely obvious at this point that creating the Jewish State in Palestine was a mistake. As previously stated I blame the US, UK, and UN for choosing Israelis over Palestinians, specifically the UK who controlled the area and enabled this to happen, but keep reading.

The argument was their own State would make them safer, but they took land from Palestinians to do this, which was against International law. So have they been safer Ever? My wife tells me the UK did not want to participate in the creation of a Jewish state, because they wanted to maintain good relations with the Arab States. and that the USA did not really want it either, but they ended up supporting it. (I’m unclear about this ). In addition the Arab states threatened to attack Israel from the get go.

The Jews did not have a state before then, it would have been better Imo to absorb them in the countries in existence after WWII, their choice. My wife tells me there were other places they were offered to settle. I’m happy to listen to any counters about how well this is working out, after 5 wars?

Today basically declaring war on Northern Gaza is a mistake. If you commit war crimes in response to war crimes, how can you say you are better, other than you did not start this round, but we still have to consider the last 70 years. All in all it’s a bad situation, and I do have sympathy for modern Israelis living a never ending nightmare. But to be fair, they are not the only ones suffering in the region or in the world.

Btw, do you realize how much Israel costs the United States? These conflicts cost us greatly, with the argument, we can’t even fiscally afford to look after ourselves. We could so some fantastic things for infrastructure with $3.8B.

Israel-Gaza: How much money does Israel get from the US?

Israel gets billions of dollars in US aid - we look at why, and what that money is used for.

www.bbc.com

The US Money Tree: The Untold Story of American Aid to Israel | Common Dreams

Expecting the US to play a constructive role in achieving a just peace in Palestine does not only reflect indefensible naivety but willful ignorance as well.

www.commondreams.org

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I don’t think there has ever been a situation where punishing an entire group of people with violence, sanctions, and restrictions on movement, supplies, and services has successfully turned them against their own leadership. As a minor parallel look how many idiots have bought into Trump’s propaganda that an attack on him is an attack on them and with each indictment his approval goes up. Now imagine if the Democrats cut off supplies and services to everybody right of center, Trump supporter or not. What do you think would happen?