Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

AG_PhamD said:
Wrap things up means figure out and exit strategy and execute it so you can end the hostilities, hopefully get the hostages back, begin moving forward.

The death toll is tragedy- as I pointed out many times. I don’t think it matters if it’s 10k or 50k or 100k. In an ideal world innocent people shouldn’t be dying and frankly I’d prefer no one have die including soldiers. They’re still someone’s father, brother, son. The reality is however this the consequence of large scale war in an environment like this- people living on top of each other with nowhere to flee to other than to shuffle around.

I am just frustrated by people’s complete ignorance when it comes to the reality of war and the ignorance that this is not the only ongoing war and frankly far from the worst. I’ve made my point clear already however that Israel needs to balance military ambitions with the optics- they know more than anyone they are held to totally different standard historically.

I think I’ve been pretty clear with my problems with Israel and Netanyahu and I think he will certainly be gone by the end of the year. There’s plenty of pressure (and quickly escalating) on Israel to be responsible, but where is the pressure on Hamas to release the hostages or to stop the incessant rocket attacks? 12,000 munitions between Oct 7 and Dec 27th alone. Let’s not forget here Hamas also bears some responsibility in deciding how this war ends too.

I think you missed my point with my Japan analogy… I said clearly the circumstances are different. What is similar however is the animosity itself and the seemingly irreconcilable cultural and ideological differences- not to mention totally divergent ideas on things like morality and honor. Concepts like kamikaze attacks and honor suicide were totally foreign. The spiritual affinity to the emperor, the incredibly inhumane treatment of POWs. FDR had held a lot of racist thoughts on the Japanese as did the general public, promoted in propaganda- unintelligent, barbaric, subhuman. Not to mention their battling refusal to surrender despite fire bombing the country and dropping a nuclear bomb. FDR wrote to his wife he didn’t think the Japanese could be reconciled. The Japanese of course had their own bigoted ideas about the US and Europeans similar to those common in the west at the time.

If you consider how deep the differences were, it’s kind of amazing things are what they are today. Given the horrors each side committed to the other, you’d think both sides would have no interest in working cooperatively. The US could have left Japan to rebuild itself alone or locked them into eternal occupation. Instead we helped rebuild, allowed them to govern themselves, and permitted them to rebuild their military, one or the most sophisticated on the planet.

Indeed Israel and Palestine have very different circumstances given the land conflict. But I would argue culturally, ideologically, morally, etc Jews and Muslims have hell of a lot more in common in life than early 20th Americans/Europeans and Japanese.
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You haven't said what an exit strategy might look like, nor has Netanyahu articulated one either, other than to say Hamas must be eliminated. It's in his personal interest to keep things going. But even if his goal of completely ending Hamas's threat were attainable, are the complete destruction of Gaza and the death, injury, and starvation worth the cost, or are they, as you seem to indicate, an inevitable cost of war in an environment where the enemy and innocent civilians are intertwined? Israel could be doing so much more to enable delivery of food, water, medicine, and other basic needs than they have. It's the polar opposite of tikkun olam.

I ask again: Is Israel safer and better off now? As much as I supported their initial response to October 7, I don't think so. Hamas may be degraded, but will regroup, fueled by hatred, and Israel is as alienated as I've seen in my lifetime. Will the tourists on whom Israel depends visit at historical rates, and will companies around the world be as ready to establish collaborative relationships with Israeli startups?

That's why I'm in favor of an international commitment to rebuild and put in place a framework to govern Gaza that doesn't depend on a terrorist organization like Hamas. I don't know if it's achievable, but the status quo isn't tolerable.
 
AG_PhamD said:
I think we in the west and people of our generations have a completely flawed view of the hell that is warfare. Our military has become so sophisticated we expect pinprick strikes. That’s a lot easier to do when you’re fighting a regional war. The Gaza war is urban warfare against an insurgency that looks no different from civilians, and all of this is confined to an extremely dense city. It’s not like it’s western Ukraine where you have pretty defined borders between militaries, it’s clear who is military and who is not, etc.
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Remember, that's was in response to some absurd hypothetical about Tijuana bombing San Diego or something like that. Would I be "OK" with some civilian deaths? Of course not. What kind of monster would be ok with innocent people dying to satisfy a need for revenge? My point was that "being 'ok' with..." and accepting that civilians might be accidental casualties are completely different concepts in my head. One doesn't care who the bomb hits and the other does everything in their power to just hit the right people.

AG_PhamD said:
This whole situation I think is distorted, particularly by young adults) by this trendy western lens of looking at everything as a victim/victimizer, colonized/colonizer relationships. It’s not about right or wrong, what society values you want to uphold, the context of history, etc. it’s about making judgements based on inequality and seeming the weaker side as oppressed and the stronger side as the oppressor. It’s just a reductive way of looking at the world. And it’s incredibly ego and ethnocentric to graft one’s interpretation of the American experience onto every other situation in the world while not even bothering to try to learn about the historical complexities involved.
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I'm not sure who that's directed at. As for myself, I was quite close to a girl in college who is Palestinian and lived in Kuwait. I had a bit of a crush on her if I'm being honest. For 3-4 years, I got to learn about the situation from her point of view. I got to learn about her situation from her roommate who was Kuwaiti. And from other friends they introduced me to (mostly from Saudi Arabia). I was interested in their point of view and they gladly shared that with me.

So I hope I'm not being accused of looking at this situation as a typical ignorant American. I'll accept "ignorant American", but not the "typical" part. While I'm not even close to being an expert, I'd like to think I understand the basics more than the average American. I actually learned quite a bit about those "historical complexities" you mention directly from people whose lives have been shaped by those "historical complexities".

That's the primary reason it took me 30 pages to jump in. I understand fairly well that it's a super complicated situation with no easy answers.
 
Here’s the problem Israel faces - even if they have a change of heart overnight and flood their neighbors with food, water, supplies and means to leave for another country… then what? What terrorist cell or upcoming group of Hamas thugs will be plotting the next big attack?

My ears are open to Palestinian American views on this, but there’s also criticism to be levied at peace-wanting Palestinians co-signing Hamas and allowing terrorist representatives. That’s not a critique at those forced to live under their rule, but the sizable amount who seem to be ok with it.

There has to be some kind of brokerage between the actual people who reside in those areas, not just the governments, or the ideology just boils into action, which boils into actual conflict.

I want the ceasefire, yet I’m also not entirely comfortable with the criticism of Israel either, especially not given our own hypocrisy.

One thing is for certain, Netanyahu is the biggest obstacle, and while he is not Trump, his power grab is not far off the mark. He’s also using this war to hold onto power. Your citizens shouldn’t be without their voice just because you are in a time of crisis.

Also, you’re dealing with terrorists. Lie to get your hostages back. Do what you have to… then target the terrorist and blow them up. Is he reigning fire indiscriminately now to show force? We already know he has that. I don’t see a long game being played here.

I’m upset at Israel’s indiscriminate killing, but I’m not keen on the young activist left either. I’m more empathetic to actual Palestinian Americans (not young bleeding hearts) and of course, the actual men, women and children suffering unimaginable horror just for living in a particular area. It’s ghastly and not fair. Still, there seems to be a recurring them of the Israelis being damned if they do, damned if they don’t, and I’m not comfortable with that.
 
MEJHarrison said:
Remember, that's was in response to some absurd hypothetical about Tijuana bombing San Diego or something like that. Would I be "OK" with some civilian deaths? Of course not. What kind of monster would be ok with innocent people dying to satisfy a need for revenge?
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Is it?

I don't think a single one of us knows what it is like to live under the constant threat of being bombed. I doubt any of us even lives with the fear of a bullet coming through the window. So we have no idea how we would actually react or feel if we had to live that way. Sure we can imagine we would be against any civilian casualties, but again, we have no idea how we would feel unless we live it.

Also, it is not about revenge. It is about eradicating HAMAS. Not revenge on the Palestinian people. Although I do find it hard to look at all of them as just civilians. Many support HAMAS's actions of bombing innocent Israeli's. And if you support that, then you are fair game.

Citysnaps said:
Biden and other Democrats are feeling the heat:

www.nytimes.com

How Gaza Protesters Are Challenging Democratic Leaders

From President Biden to the mayors of small cities, Democrats have been trailed by demonstrators who are complicating the party’s ability to campaign in an election year.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Again, loud college students who are already pissed at Biden for any other number of reasons.

College students have been against any military action since the 60's. I seriously don't think they move the needle.

But on the other hand, if Biden drops his support for Israel, that could hurt him.

GermanSuplex said:
Here’s the problem Israel faces - even if they have a change of heart overnight and flood their neighbors with food, water, supplies and means to leave for another country… then what? What terrorist cell or upcoming group of Hamas thugs will be plotting the next big attack?

My ears are open to Palestinian American views on this, but there’s also criticism to be levied at peace-wanting Palestinians co-signing Hamas and allowing terrorist representatives. That’s not a critique at those forced to live under their rule, but the sizable amount who seem to be ok with it.

There has to be some kind of brokerage between the actual people who reside in those areas, not just the governments, or the ideology just boils into action, which boils into actual conflict.

I want the ceasefire, yet I’m also not entirely comfortable with the criticism of Israel either, especially not given our own hypocrisy.

One thing is for certain, Netanyahu is the biggest obstacle, and while he is not Trump, his power grab is not far off the mark. He’s also using this war to hold onto power. Your citizens shouldn’t be without their voice just because you are in a time of crisis.

Also, you’re dealing with terrorists. Lie to get your hostages back. Do what you have to… then target the terrorist and blow them up. Is he reigning fire indiscriminately now to show force? We already know he has that. I don’t see a long game being played here.

I’m upset at Israel’s indiscriminate killing, but I’m not keen on the young activist left either. I’m more empathetic to actual Palestinian Americans (not young bleeding hearts) and of course, the actual men, women and children suffering unimaginable horror just for living in a particular area. It’s ghastly and not fair. Still, there seems to be a recurring them of the Israelis being damned if they do, damned if they don’t, and I’m not comfortable with that.
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Very well said!
 
GermanSuplex said:
Here’s the problem Israel faces - even if they have a change of heart overnight and flood their neighbors with food, water, supplies and means to leave for another country… then what? What terrorist cell or upcoming group of Hamas thugs will be plotting the next big attack?
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I don't think people who are taking issue and protesting Israel's actions are seeking that.

Rather, it's about demanding the IDF in their quest to destroy hamas, be far more cautious with respect to protecting, rather than killing, innocent Gaza civilians. Who are now apparently viewed as acceptable collateral damage by Israel.
 
Herdfan said:
Is it?

I don't think a single one of us knows what it is like to live under the constant threat of being bombed. I doubt any of us even lives with the fear of a bullet coming through the window. So we have no idea how we would actually react or feel if we had to live that way. Sure we can imagine we would be against any civilian casualties, but again, we have no idea how we would feel unless we live it.
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Under that level of pressure it's entirely possible that I would want to see them all die or whatever. There's no way to know for sure. But just because it's possible doesn't mean there's any reason to assume that's how I'd think in those conditions. That's mixing up possibility with probability. Until given good reason to assume my soul would turn dark, I'll presume I'd remain a close variation of the person I am now.
 
Citysnaps said:
I don't think people who are taking issue and protesting Israel's actions are seeking that.

Rather, it's about demanding the IDF in their quest to destroy hamas, be far more cautious with respect to protecting, rather than killing, innocent Gaza civilians. Who are now apparently viewed as acceptable collateral damage by Israel.
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It’s really difficult for the IDF (or anyone) to be more “cautious” when Hamas has embedded itself with the innocent civilians of Gaza.
 
GermanSuplex said:
Here’s the problem Israel faces - even if they have a change of heart overnight and flood their neighbors with food, water, supplies and means to leave for another country… then what? What terrorist cell or upcoming group of Hamas thugs will be plotting the next big attack?

My ears are open to Palestinian American views on this, but there’s also criticism to be levied at peace-wanting Palestinians co-signing Hamas and allowing terrorist representatives. That’s not a critique at those forced to live under their rule, but the sizable amount who seem to be ok with it.

There has to be some kind of brokerage between the actual people who reside in those areas, not just the governments, or the ideology just boils into action, which boils into actual conflict.

I want the ceasefire, yet I’m also not entirely comfortable with the criticism of Israel either, especially not given our own hypocrisy.

One thing is for certain, Netanyahu is the biggest obstacle, and while he is not Trump, his power grab is not far off the mark. He’s also using this war to hold onto power. Your citizens shouldn’t be without their voice just because you are in a time of crisis.

Also, you’re dealing with terrorists. Lie to get your hostages back. Do what you have to… then target the terrorist and blow them up. Is he reigning fire indiscriminately now to show force? We already know he has that. I don’t see a long game being played here.

I’m upset at Israel’s indiscriminate killing, but I’m not keen on the young activist left either. I’m more empathetic to actual Palestinian Americans (not young bleeding hearts) and of course, the actual men, women and children suffering unimaginable horror just for living in a particular area. It’s ghastly and not fair. Still, there seems to be a recurring them of the Israelis being damned if they do, damned if they don’t, and I’m not comfortable with that.
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There is a long history here that goes back to the creation of Israel orchestrated by the victors of WWII. It’s a mess, with blood on everyone’s hands. I could post a long list of factors, but if you want to use one fact, it was taking away Palestinian land to plop down the State of Israel. This was the recipe for conflict In the region ever since. 😔

As far as the world, I’m not sure what “damned if they don’t“ means. As far as “damned if they do”, as impossible as the situation is, the resulting World uproar is about Netanyahu, btw closely aligned with Trump, is that he and Israel leadership thought that the crimes against them were so grievous, that they could flush Geneva Conventions, and operate with ZERO regard to collateral damage. Yes my opinion, but basically any Palestinians who got in their way, simply by occupying space in Gaza were expendable. And then there is Israel’s position of blocking humanitarian aid to the population to Gaza, all of them. Is there any surprise there are accusations of genocide?
 
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MEJHarrison said:
When you have three major religions that all consider the same ground holy, you're going to have problems.
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Exactly. So let’s stop this BS of blaming Britain for creating Israel after WWII.
 
MEJHarrison said:
When you have three major religions that all consider the same ground holy, you're going to have problems.
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And when 2 of them are willing to Co-Exist but 1 isn't, the problems get bigger. Much bigger.

Time/Life (I think) published a coffee table book called 3 Faiths/1Place which looked at the history of each of the claims to the area.
 
Alli said:
Exactly. So let’s stop this BS of blaming Britain for creating Israel after WWII.
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I’m not making excuses for Hamas or Israel.
It’s not BS but an historical fact. It displaced a huge number of Palestinians. And what happened after? Multiple wars centered on this occurance in itself, not a Jewish state put out in an empty expanse of land, but a new state placed in the middle of a Muslim populated area. Not helping was Israel treating Palestine with a heavy hand for decades. Hence constant conflict based on that fact.
 
Huntn said:
I’m not making excuses for Hamas or Israel.
It’s not BS but an historical fact. It displaced a huge number of Palestinians.
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I have to ask why the majority Muslim countries want nothing to do with the Palestinians?
 
I don't understand their, or anyone else's, commitment to a "place". It isn't just them, but people I grew up with would never leave because it is their land. They grew up there etc.

I guess I am different in that I don't have a huge commitment to any one place. Even when we sold my mom's house I wasn't sad. Sure I all my childhood memories in it, but I still have them whether I own the house or not. So........

Hell, I moved across the country to a place I knew no one (well know some people in Phoenix, but that is 2 hours away). Don't regret it one bit and will not being going back. May go someplace else, but not back.
 
Herdfan said:
I don't understand their, or anyone else's, commitment to a "place". It isn't just them, but people I grew up with would never leave because it is their land. They grew up there etc.

I guess I am different in that I don't have a huge commitment to any one place. Even when we sold my mom's house I wasn't sad. Sure I all my childhood memories in it, but I still have them whether I own the house or not. So........

Hell, I moved across the country to a place I knew no one (well know some people in Phoenix, but that is 2 hours away). Don't regret it one bit and will not being going back. May go someplace else, but not back.
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Good question. But I don't think people in this country, or much of the world for that matter, feel a connection to place. I've moved several times in my lifetime and, while I still think fondly of where I grew up, I don't feel like I'm home when I go back there.

For many Jews, the connection to Israel may be spiritual, religious, and/or ancestral, but it's much more than a place to live. It's a location they may feel an affinity for even if they never go there. In some respects, I suspect it's the way Native Americans feel about their lands.
 
I hope and pray there's come a time when I can leave the place I live to "miss" it, because as much as there are things I enjoy, its a bland and uneventful city. Which can be a good thing at times, but not always. This place is as culturally diverse as a Mormon bible study.

So yeah, maybe its a religious or spiritual thing, which I also lack. I have no connection to place.
 
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