M2 Pro and M2 Max

Jimmyjames

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Just realised that this is the first Apple Silicon presentation (that I recall) that doesn't have one of those "controversial" pc comparison graphs. Probably for the better tbh. The one that compared the Ultra to the rtx 3090 took a lot of criticism.

Also it seems like the Max has removed one of the decode/encode engines apparently. The M1 Max had two and now the M2 has just one. That's a shame and a real step back. Just as Nvidia has increased their encode engines and managed to double encode speed by stitching frames together. Reports of 4k300fps+ on the 4090. Shame Apple has made this decision.
 

casperes1996

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So the 96GB of RAM only on the top tier Max die could be to save cost. If they have to put the RAM on the silicon package it can be harder to predict how many packages to make with how much memory on which level of cut-down Max. If you say 96 only on Max you eliminate one whole chip configuration from manufacturing. It's a bit harder to separate RAM from SoC than it used to be so the operational cost of more configs can be higher.

While doing a high end M2 Pro Mac mini gets near a Mac Studio in cost, I think it's more complicated to compare them than just saying the Studio is better. If your work is generally purely CPU bound and you don't require extra I/O from the Studio then the M2 Pro should work better for that than the M1 Max. Anything that uses the Neural Engine (whatever serious work that might be...) would also run better on the M2 Pro. Though anything using the GPU cores would likely be better off with the Studio and M1 Max.

As for the die shots provided by Apple, how trustworthy do we think they are in reflecting the true nature of the chip? I'd like to see one actually de-lidded. Would having this peculiar 19 core GPU thing not make it significantly harder to design? I mean just it being an odd number I would think would make it hard to wire up to caches and memory. But I don't know, it may not really be too different to building a 20 core chip and fusing it off in the design complexity; Not really my field. Just don't think I've ever seen a chip that actually has an uneven number of cores, be it CPU or GPU, without it being a case of them physically being there but being fused off.
Sure, storage cards and the I/O make sense, and it’s good to know that there are a bunch that work out of the box. But what people want are GPUs, presumably, and just adding a few slots for storage and I/O doesn’t really give the Mac Pro a reason to exist that couldn’t more easily be served by TB expansion.
There's also things like hardware keys like iLok that act as software license keys in hardware. Very common for music software. I know that people like to put those inside of Mac Pros even though you could get an external setup working for that.
Do people still connect devices like this with fibre channel cards?
Afterburner 2.0 is a possibility.
Apple already made MPX modules a thing, and while it is effectively just PCIe+ it still took RnD and I could see them continue on with MPX modules, perhaps with only MPX capable slots and none that are pure PCIe.
On the x86 side of the fence there's also work to make RAM in CXL form, which is effectively building on top of PCIe. I could see a situation where this could be done for Mac Pro as a form of tiered RAM. You have your caches, L1, L2, SLC, then RAM then CXL RAM, then SSD swap.
People never seemed to like Fusion Drives much but the basic ideas of tiering things out like that for fast but small and slower but bigger has always made sense in computing and extending it with another layer could have meaningful improvements especially on a design like Apple Silicon where we will presumably never get 2019 Mac Pro levels of SoC packaged RAM.

I'm daydreaming with possibilities and speculations that are currently without too much basis here. Ultimately we can't really know much for certain right now.

But as others have mentioned too, there could be fun finds from the Asahi project directing M2 Max that could reveal aspects of future possibilities. IIRC the memory controller for M1 Max was also already quite a bit over-spec for what even the M1 Ultra was capable of. 512GB limit IIRC
 

Nycturne

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Apple already made MPX modules a thing, and while it is effectively just PCIe+ it still took RnD and I could see them continue on with MPX modules, perhaps with only MPX capable slots and none that are pure PCIe.

The add-on connector that makes a PCIe slot an MPX capable slot is stuff that is mostly useful for GPUs: Extra power so you don't need additional wires, inbound PCIe lanes for mixing into Thunderbolt ports, outbound DisplayPort lanes for mixing into Thunderbolt ports.

If you don't support add-on GPUs, there's not much need for MPX.
 

casperes1996

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The add-on connector that makes a PCIe slot an MPX capable slot is stuff that is mostly useful for GPUs: Extra power so you don't need additional wires, inbound PCIe lanes for mixing into Thunderbolt ports, outbound DisplayPort lanes for mixing into Thunderbolt ports.

If you don't support add-on GPUs, there's not much need for MPX.
That’s a good point. It just feels weird to me if MPX’ lifespan winds up just being the 2019 MP. And as a consequence cards for it also fade away quickly after an apple silicon one comes out.
 

Andropov

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As for the die shots provided by Apple, how trustworthy do we think they are in reflecting the true nature of the chip? I'd like to see one actually de-lidded. Would having this peculiar 19 core GPU thing not make it significantly harder to design? I mean just it being an odd number I would think would make it hard to wire up to caches and memory. But I don't know, it may not really be too different to building a 20 core chip and fusing it off in the design complexity; Not really my field. Just don't think I've ever seen a chip that actually has an uneven number of cores, be it CPU or GPU, without it being a case of them physically being there but being fused off.

Well in the video Apple shows this shot of the M1 Pro. Could it be a composed plane using a true die shot of the M1 Pro? It looks pretty much identical to the die shot on the marketing images.

Screenshot 2023-01-18 at 00.51.10.png
 

Cmaier

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Would having this peculiar 19 core GPU thing not make it significantly harder to design? I mean just it being an odd number I would think would make it hard to wire up to caches and memory.

I don’t think so. The only magic numbers are powers-of-2. So if you don’t have 16 or 32, having 19 isn’t any worse than having 20. Somewhere deep in the bowels of the thing, there’s something that accepts an address and routes data to the appropriate GPU. That address may be 5 bits long in some places, and 19 bits long in others, but having unused address space doesn’t hurt anything.
 

Cmaier

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Well in the video Apple shows this shot of the M1 Pro. Could it be a composed plane using a true die shot of the M1 Pro? It looks pretty much identical to the die shot on the marketing images.

View attachment 21282

Interestingly there is nothing to hide with the M2 Pro. It’s the M2 Max that is interesting - are there crossbars or other indication of support for an Ultra (or 2x Ultra) configuration? Maybe why this photo has a Pro - to keep us guessing.
 

Citysnaps

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Sure. But what could you put on the PCI bus? Who is writing those drivers? And will Apple build PCI support in, or do its own thing and limit you to some new type of cards that it blesses? I think there will be slots, but i have no idea what you’ll be able to use them for.

Pretty much any special processing card you want to design if you're building a product that meets the needs or solves a problem for customers in a market you're trying to reach.

Granted, this is a niche - off the beaten track. And not for the general computer market.

In the past while working at several defense/aerospace companies in SV I developed products for signal acquisition and processing based on both rack-mount PCs and Macs that had a bus for cards designed for acquisition/processing/analysis. Customers were defense, national labs, and government agencies. Another engineer developed a system for capturing (via a large bulk memory), processing, and analyzing low probability of intercept signals of interest.

I've also designed PC-based pure digital radios (often inaccurately called software defined radios) that would take a wideband digital site IF and digitally tune/filter/decimate for further processing and storage

Inputs could be analog centered at an IF, and then converted to digital via a high dynamic range A/D converters and then digitally tuned, filtered, and processed, or come in as a digital spectrum centered at an IF, and downconverted to baseband (zero IF, I&Q data streams ), and then processed using various signal processing techniques in hardware. Once signal of interest data is filtered/decimated/processed - the computer would format and further process, and ultimately display and or store the results that could be later accessed by a user, or sent to another computer.

The above is not limited to defense/aerospace, but could find uses in a variety industrial and scientific applications.

What makes the above scenarios work is having a relatively low cost yet powerful computer that's easy to write apps, with cards slots to hold whatever kind of special purpose processors one cares to design and build.
 

Cmaier

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Pretty much any special processing card you want to design if you're building a product that meets the needs or solves a problem for customers in a market you're trying to reach.

Granted, this is a niche - off the beaten track. And not for the general computer market.

In the past while working at several defense/aerospace companies in SV I developed products for signal acquisition and processing based on both rack-mount PCs and Macs that had a bus for cards designed for acquisition/processing/analysis. Customers were defense, national labs, and government agencies. Another engineer developed a system for capturing, processing, and analyzing low probability of intercept signals of interest.

I've also designed PC-based pure digital radios (often inaccurately called software defined radios) that would take a wideband digital site IF and digitally tune/filter/decimate for further processing and storage

Inputs could be analog centered at an IF, and then converted to digital via a high dynamic range A/D converters and then digitally tuned, filtered, and processed, or come in as a digital spectrum centered at an IF, and downconverted to baseband (zero IF, I&Q data streams ), and then processed using various signal processing techniques in hardware. Once signal of interest data is filtered/decimated/processed - the computer would format and further process, and ultimately display and or store the results that could be later accessed by a user, or sent to another computer.

The above is not limited to defense/aerospace, but could find uses in a variety industrial and scientific applications.

What makes the above scenarios work is having a relatively low cost yet powerful computer that's easy to write apps, with cards slots to hold whatever kind of special purpose processors one cares to design and build.
Sure, i get all that. I guess my point is that most people who buy mac pros are sticking GPUs in there. And it’s questionable whether that will be a thing in an apple silicon Mac Pro.
 

Citysnaps

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Sure, i get all that. I guess my point is that most people who buy mac pros are sticking GPUs in there. And it’s questionable whether that will be a thing in an apple silicon Mac Pro.

Yeah, I get that.

I guess when I see something like a Mac Pro what races through my mind is what could someone do with that, that's off the beaten path and can take advantage of the supporting infrastructure (slots/bus, beefy power supply, high speed ethernet communications to whatever, support for high-res displays, high performance CPU, etc) all in a nice and robust chassis that I could never build on my own.

It's just begging to be a product used in some other interesting context. :)
 

Nycturne

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That’s a good point. It just feels weird to me if MPX’ lifespan winds up just being the 2019 MP. And as a consequence cards for it also fade away quickly after an apple silicon one comes out.
It does feel weird to jettison a solution to the whole "Thunderbolt makes dGPUs more complicated" situation, for sure. I made the same argument a couple years ago now, assuming Apple would have been thinking ahead with MPX and that they had something planned.

But if Apple's not doing anything with dGPUs, I don't see why they would keep the MPX slot.
 

exoticspice1

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Pretty unlikely. Most of what was on Afterburner is already in the SoC. The average Studio scorches the '19 Pro on just about everything.
Expect CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD upgradability and also the fact you can connect 12 monitors to the Mac Pro.

Mac Pro exists because of it's upgradeable factor and with Apple Sillicon ruining that what's the point of Mac Pro especially if there is no higher tier than Ultra?
 

Cmaier

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Expect CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD upgradability and also the fact you can connect 12 monitors to the Mac Pro.

Mac Pro exists because of it's upgradeable factor and with Apple Sillicon ruining that what's the point of Mac Pro especially if there is no higher tier than Ultra?

Number_of_people_who_use_12_monitors = (number_of_people_who_buy_it_just_for_bragging_rights + number_of_people_who_buy_it_because_it_looks_cool) * 1e-6
 

ArgoDuck

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on a typical work day I review literature, write papers, run statistical analyses and code. I topped out at 3 monitors. When one blew up I found I didn’t miss it enough to replace it.

I since replaced the remaining 2 x 4K monitors with one each 5k2k and 4K curved monitors, which I’ve found an ideal combination. I did retain one of the old 4Ks - a 43" - for when i need occasionally to sit at a distance and view my graphs from the comfort of my couch … or take in the odd movie 🍿
 

B01L

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There's also things like hardware keys like iLok that act as software license keys in hardware. Very common for music software. I know that people like to put those inside of Mac Pros even though you could get an external setup working for that.

The 7.1 Mac Pro has an internal USB-A port intended exactly for that, right next to the internal SATAIII data & power ports...!
 

mr_roboto

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Sure, i get all that. I guess my point is that most people who buy mac pros are sticking GPUs in there. And it’s questionable whether that will be a thing in an apple silicon Mac Pro.
A few years ago I watched some youtube videos made by a freelance music composer who writes and records orchestral scores out of a home music studio. The main topic was "here's why I chose a 2019 Intel Mac Pro with the biggest CPU option rather than building my own cheap threadripper box", but he also talked quite a bit about its advantages over the outgoing Mac system it was replacing.

The old and busted was a pair of 2013 Mac Pros mounted in a Sonnet rack shelf, connected to PCIe expansion chassis for all the PCIe cards he needed, none of which were GPUs. To him, one of the biggest wins was that the 2019 Pro rackmount edition used the same amount of rack space as the twin 2013 Pros, but he got to delete the additional rack space used by a PCIe expansion chassis and consolidate all his cards inside a single computer.

Among other things, this volume and cabling reduction made it much more practical for him to put a useful subset of his studio into a travel rack he could take with him for jobs that wanted him to do some work on-site rather than remote.

IIRC the cards he put into the 2019 were one of those multi-NVME adapters, interface cards for various external audio boxes (which also lived in his rack), and a couple of DSP cards required by one of the applications he needed. (As he himself pointed out, the two DSP cards together probably provided less FLOPs than a single 2019 Pro CPU core, but crusty seldom-updated professional software is what it is. It required them, so he had to have them.)
 

KingOfPain

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It seems that the 10 core M2 Pro is now 6+4 instead of the 8+2 in the M1 Pro.
I think the 4 efficiency cores make sense, and the ones in the M2 are more performant than those in the M1 anyway.

Also, it was somewhat clear that a Mac mini with M2 Pro would come, because there was a clear gap between the Mac mini M1 and the Mac Studio M1 Max.
But if the maxed out Mac mini is as expensive as the Studio, as Cliff says, then the Studio is most likely the better choice.

I'm still content with my M1 MacBook Air, which originally was just a way of replacing my old Nehalem Mac Pro, until a hardware is released that I really want. Thus, I'll be waiting for M3 at least.
 

casperes1996

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Pretty unlikely. Most of what was on Afterburner is already in the SoC. The average Studio scorches the '19 Pro on just about everything.

Well Afterburner 2.0 would not just be adding Afterburner to a machine that can already do better with what's built into its SoC. It would be an improved version that can do 7 gazillion streams of ProRes 4444XQ at 64K resolution. - Numbers are arbitrary but point is that Afterburner should be scaled up and would be able to offload work from the SoC, freeing it up for more effects work or whatnot. They might not do this with the argument that it's unnecessary, but I'm sure there's some studio out there that would want this
 
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