Nuvia: don’t hold your breath

leman said:
Why not? The patents so far have been great indicators of upcoming CPU and GPU features. We knew details about raytracing, GPU dual-issue, dynamic caching, new branch predictors etc. months before the chips themselves were available. I do agree that their packaging tech patents are much more general.
Click to expand...
I think people tend to read way too much into them. For every hitter, there are at least 8 schizophrenic absurdities. That’s the problem. Other tech guys do this too fwiw, not particular to Apple. It’s not terrible though, I wouldn’t deny you might get some things right!
leman said:
They won’t do tiles, they will jump straight to 3D packaging. I mean, they’ve been doing tiles for years.
Click to expand...
What exactly do you mean by 3D packaging? And they’ve not been doing tiles splitting up the actual SoC like Intel. They’ve been doing package on package for some time or system in package like with the Apple Watch yeah.
leman said:
There is some evidence that Apple helps co-developing some of this tech.
Click to expand...
“Some evidence” sure. But I mean it’s just InFO-L tech. Anyone can use that. They might have protocols of their own wrt die interconnects, but still.
 
Qualcomm has announced a dev kit.
www.theverge.com

Here’s the eight-inch Snapdragon PC for your Windows on Arm experiments

Qualcomm is selling it in black.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

One interesting detail which isn’t in the art is this dev box has a top frequency of 4.4ghz. A little higher than even the 84100 iirc. Makes sense given it’s a mini desktop
EDIT: that’s incorrect. It doesn’t reach 4.4. It’s 4.3 like the 84100 according to official documentation.
 
Last edited:
Jimmyjames said:
Qualcomm has announced a dev kit.
www.theverge.com

Here’s the eight-inch Snapdragon PC for your Windows on Arm experiments

Qualcomm is selling it in black.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

One interesting detail which isn’t in the art is this dev box has a top frequency of 4.4ghz. A little higher than even the 84100 iirc. Makes sense given it’s a mini desktop
Click to expand...
Yeah. I wonder how much of this really comes down to their extensive binning. I must say I prefer what Apple does to a degree. They’ll deactivate cores that can’t make it, but generally they just settle on one frequency throughout the range (besides with the M2 Max that one time or the A15 in iPads). Kinda wild how extensive Qualcomm’s is
 
Am I the only one who thinks that Vivobook and the Lenovo Slim look like fair deals? I think the Lenovo will start with 15/512GB.

Honestly, the Surface looks terrible lol. It really is sad how far ahead the M4 is due to having real E Cores for like a tablet or fanless device (such that the Surface Pro tablet couldn’t be fanless).
 
Cmaier said:
are there games that don’t run? i thought the point was that everything you have should just run.
Click to expand...
That’s a good question. I think they do but this is a list of those that have been tested. That being said, some are listed as runing better than others. Cyberpunk 2077 is listed as “Runs”, Alan Wake is listed as “Perfect”.

Crysis is not listed.
 
Cmaier said:
are there games that don’t run? i thought the point was that everything you have should just run.
Click to expand...
I think it’s just a list like those Mac lists for “does it Arm” with a red x or green check from 2020, but given the extensive game library this doesn’t make a ton of sense. They should just list the verified stuff.
 
Artemis said:
I think people tend to read way too much into them. For every hitter, there are at least 8 schizophrenic absurdities. That’s the problem. Other tech guys do this too fwiw, not particular to Apple. It’s not terrible though, I wouldn’t deny you might get some things right!
Click to expand...

It depends on the topic. CPU/GPU/SoC tech patents from Apple seem to have a very high implementation rate. These patents are also very useful in understanding how things work. Of course, here we are talking about packaging technology, which is probably much more experimental. So you do have a point that one has to be careful before jumping to conclusions.

Artemis said:
What exactly do you mean by 3D packaging?
Click to expand...

Arranging individual dies with full or partial overlaps, i.e., building a sandwich instead of tiles. They have a bunch of interesting patents describing possible arrangements, no idea when what and if of those things get implemented. My point is that this seems like an area go very active research for them, and they have been on it for years judging by the paper trail. They will need a more advanced packaging technology, so I am certain that something is coming, and that something won't be your regular 2D tiles. From what I understand the biggest challenges is cooling and low-energy die-to-die communication.

Artemis said:
And they’ve not been doing tiles splitting up the actual SoC like Intel. They’ve been doing package on package for some time or system in package like with the Apple Watch yeah.
Click to expand...

No, they haven't been splitting up the actual SoC, probably because they have deeper pockets. However, one could consider their on-package-RAM as using 2D tiles, and obviously Ultra is a 2D packaging technology.
 
leman said:
It depends on the topic. CPU/GPU/SoC tech patents from Apple seem to have a very high implementation rate. These patents are also very useful in understanding how things work. Of course, here we are talking about packaging technology, which is probably much more experimental. So you do have a point that one has to be careful before jumping to conclusions.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Like IIRC — you can correct me here because I may be off ky rocker on memory — Apple has had some patents about memory compression and memory controller stuff? I know on realworldtech, speculation has been waged about this for years, and with M1 it seems like that was true. Maynard has had some hits for sure, tbc. He was also ahead on CoreML’s organization IIRC (where Apple wanted a unified system between the CPU’s AMX, GPU, and ANE and the system would decide where to run kernels)
leman said:
Arranging individual dies with full or partial overlaps, i.e., building a sandwich instead of tiles.
Click to expand...
Ah yes.
leman said:
They have a bunch of interesting patents describing possible arrangements, no idea when what and if of those things get implemented. My point is that this seems like an area go very active research for them, and they have been on it for years judging by the paper trail. They will need a more advanced packaging technology, so I am certain that something is coming, and that something won't be your regular 2D tiles. From what I understand the biggest challenges is cooling and low-energy die-to-die communication.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is my understanding too. But I’m quite skeptical about 3D tiles for this reason — really the top one. TSV SRAM is one thing, but full 3D tiles has some other issues imo. We’ll see though.

And yeah, true enough re: actual research — that’s right. It’s a good trailing indicator for sure.


leman said:
No, they haven't been splitting up the actual SoC, probably because they have deeper pockets.
Click to expand...
Yes, correct. It would be awesome if Apple could figure out low energy 2D tiling for an SoC to the point of being worthwhile for laptops and tablets. The cost savings may not go that far but arguably could be distributed back to the consumer in the form of bigger GPUs or lower prices for some stuff. As nodes get more expensive it may be something they look into? Who knows. The pocketbooks are fat though and they don’t sell directly to OEMs as you know.
 
The RAM is actually not on package with X Elite — I was wrong about this and had a bad tip + bad info.

(There was a mobo shot leaked, if anyone wants I can find it)

ironically, that possibly proves a different point I made at this stage: the difference between DDR and LPPDR is ike ~ severalfold important than on-package vs off-package, and the traces are still close enough with LPDDR on a PCB to keep latency similar (which is only related to power as indicator of distance IMO). With the battery figures even MS is claiming or in their report, or QC’s power floors it does look like the floors are still pretty low. That said, I’d bet there’s still some to gain from moving it on and it’s disappointing they didn’t.
 
Can get enough of this person. Macrumors have found their monarch.
1716423497228.png
 
Jimmyjames said:
Can get enough of this person. Macrumors have found their monarch.
View attachment 29587
Click to expand...
LMFAO

This is funny, because I was talking about the exact opposite of this being the case on another forum. Apple and mobile vendors are the single best case against this kind of insanity, but even then, you can do significant IPC upgrades on the same process. Apple did it many times, AMD is about to do it, Intel has done it before from Sunny Cove to Golden Cove, Arm did it from the X2 to the X4, etc.
 
That is crazy. It’s so funny people think this way. AMD guys used to say this about Apple on 4 and 5 nano meter, and then with the Ryzen Zen 4 chips, we saw that was all fluff. They still consume anywhere from 2.5-4x the power to match the M2 on single thread performance, and have no chance in battery life. Architecture is huge.
 
Back
Top