Russia-Ukraine

[Zoidberg]

Thanks! I definitely don't know too many Spanish people so this makes sense. Would be interested in the links, yeah. Youtube on the other hand. Nobody should do youtube to get informed about politics.

I added a paragraph to explain where it stems from, it will make more sense I think.

As for youtube, people will watch what they have access to (same goes for Facebook, if it's right on your FB wall and recommended by groups you follow, you'll watch it).

Pedro Sánchez mete de cabeza a España en la guerra | Análisis

analisis.pcoe.net

LUH Noticias

Blog con artículos de diferentes temáticas

luhnoticias.es

Paremos la guerra. Una agenda de lucha - Tortuga

www.grupotortuga.com

People without Ukrainian passports had trouble crossing into the EU, so of course the EU is again the bad guy (not a peep about the guy who actually bombed them and made them refugees in the first place):


Oh, and of course, the EU now will buy more gas from the US, so it means it benefits them, so they made Russia do it:

El gran negocio de EEUU: vende el gas a Europa un 40% más caro que Rusia

Estados Unidos se prepara para hacer un gran negocio con la exportación de gas natural. El país está acelerando la puesta en operación de algunas de sus principales infraestructuras de regasificación para incrementar su volumen de ventas.

www.eleconomista.es

It's quite simple, really, just one-sided bad faith arguments, but they get pushed out through tens of outlets, so it becomes ingrained.

 

[Huntn]

Putin had his guy there until 2014. When Ukrainians (at least in the West) wanted their country to become more European, with the ambition of one day joining the EU, Yanukovych wanted the opposite. He got ousted, and seeing that the writing was on the wall, Putin moved into Crimea and started war in the East, which ensured Ukraine couldn't join NATO. The rest of the country kept moving further West (ideologically) and Putin saw weakness in the reaction in the West (weak sanctions, loopholes galore, no consequences), so he got bolder.

Thank you. Part if this just a poor memory on my part.

 

[Huntn]

2004, @Huntn, 2004.

Not 2009.

And, Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007.

I'm a bit of a pedant (very anal, put it down to my background as an historian; facts matter, and so do dates) about such things.

Elsewhere, I suspect that @Zoidberg, @Pumbaa, @yaxomoxay, and @Arkitect - among others - may agree with me: Please, please, please, spare me US exceptionalism.

And please stop, cease, desist from - thinking that how the US experiences some philosophies (rooted in European history, politics, culture and experience) is the same as what Europe knows, lived, and has experienced. It isn't.

The European historical experience, and political experience - and what passes for what is defined as "right" (far right) and "left" (far-left) is not the same as the US.

Just because what passes for the left in the US is not (slavishly) - or, axiomatically - pro-Russian (a historic hangover from having been pro-Soviet) does not mean that other far-left (and there was a time, in my youth, when I belonged to, danced with, identified with, willingly, perhaps myopically, but most certainly, insanely idealistically, - that world) groups, individuals, fellow-travellers in Europe (anyone take a look at Jeremy Corbyn's fatuous press conferences this week? Or, the voting preferences registered by a few idiots on the far left in the European Parliament, who were elected under Ireland's geninely generous proportional representation electoral system?) do not still (yes, perhaps, illogically, inexplicably) hold these views.

Is this directed at me or a general statement? I fixed the date.

 

[User.45]

I added a paragraph to explain where it stems from, it will make more sense I think.

As for youtube, people will watch what they have access to (same goes for Facebook, if it's right on your FB wall and recommended by groups you follow, you'll watch it).

I added a paragraph to explain where it stems from, it will make more sense I think.

As for youtube, people will watch what they have access to (same goes for Facebook, if it's right on your FB wall and recommended by groups you follow, you'll watch it).

Pedro Sánchez mete de cabeza a España en la guerra | Análisis

analisis.pcoe.net

LUH Noticias

Blog con artículos de diferentes temáticas

luhnoticias.es

Paremos la guerra. Una agenda de lucha - Tortuga

www.grupotortuga.com

People without Ukrainian passports had trouble crossing into the EU, so of course the EU is again the bad guy (not a peep about the guy who actually bombed them and made them refugees in the first place):


Oh, and of course, the EU now will buy more gas from the US, so it means it benefits them, so they made Russia do it:

El gran negocio de EEUU: vende el gas a Europa un 40% más caro que Rusia

Estados Unidos se prepara para hacer un gran negocio con la exportación de gas natural. El país está acelerando la puesta en operación de algunas de sus principales infraestructuras de regasificación para incrementar su volumen de ventas.

www.eleconomista.es

It's quite simple, really, just one-sided bad faith arguments, but they get pushed out through tens of outlets, so it becomes ingrained.

When I read the words la burguesía, proletariado, imperialista, la clase obrera, I haveto laugh. The language used is so blatantly communist, I can't help just laugh about it. Where and when I grew up not even the Soviets pushed language like this without getting a "go home, you're drunk" reaction.

 

[Deleted member 215]

I think it's not really a matter of being pro-Putin, but rather that there are some "lefties" who feel so compelled to argue that anything that happens that might be viewed as bad is actually the fault of the West, and particularly the US......and that argument gets misunderstood as coming from somebody who is "pro-Putin"

It's very disingenuous to conflate any criticism of the West with being "pro-Putin". It's a holdover from the Cold War when criticism of the West meant being a pro-Russian communist-sympathizer who hates freedom. It's also plainly a tactic used to shut down discussion and silence those with alternative views.

 

[Zoidberg]

When I read the words la burguesía, proletariado, imperialista, la clase obrera, I haveto laugh. The language used was is so blatantly communist, I can't help just laugh about it. Where and when I grew up not even the Soviets pushed language like this without getting a "go home, you're drunk" reaction.

It still works, though. And while in Spain this is negligible (the hardcore communist parties hover at maybe 5%, and they are slowly dying as these blogs lose funding in favour of the far Right), it works much, much better in South America.

 

[Huntn]

I think it's not really a matter of being pro-Putin, but rather that there are some "lefties" who feel so compelled to argue that anything that happens that might be viewed as bad is actually the fault of the West, and particularly the US......and that argument gets misunderstood as coming from somebody who is "pro-Putin"

Who exactly are you critiquing? Some things that have happened are the fault of the West, so who does that make appear pro-Putin, the left when they say it? And to whom, the Right (in the US)?
Dealing with Russia Ukraine most of what I’ve heard from “liberal” sources in the US is a constant blame on Russia, not any of “it’s our fault“ as a primary critique, with a few historical hindsight comments how things could have been done better. And I’ve heard some right wingers until a weak ago mimicking Trump and actually praising Putin, but that seems to have dried up In the current backlash.

 

[Yoused]

Here is a leftist opinion from one Roger Waters, for whom I have a great deal of respect,

We on the left often make the mistake of still looking upon Russia as a somewhat socialist enterprise. Of course, it isn’t. The Soviet Union ended in 1991. Russia is an unadulterated neoliberal capitalist gangster’s paradise, modeled during the time of its horrific restructuring under Boris Yeltsin … In these difficult days, we should resist the temptation to pour good guy/bad guy gasoline on the fire; demand a ceasefire in the name of humanity … and stop pouring weapons of war into Eastern Europe, further destabilizing the region just to satisfy the insatiable appetite of the international armaments industry.​

So, yes, I can see how the anti-war left might be perceived as facilitating Putin by way of being dogmatically anti-war. But what do you do when war itself is an awful thing to be opposed at all costs?

 

[Eric]

 

[Huntn]

In the 21st century, when a Leader of a country, decides for no other reason that I want this country back under my control, then subsequently proceeds to rape, destroy, and murder citizens of said country, this sounds like a war crime to me.

 

[Huntn]

Is this directed at me or a general statement? I fixed the date.

@Scepticalscribe, who did you direct this to? Asking because it was replied to me.

Please, please, please, spare me US exceptionalism.

And please stop, cease, desist from - thinking that how the US experiences some philosophies (rooted in European history, politics, culture and experience) is the same as what Europe knows, lived, and has experienced. It isn't.

 

[User.45]

Unfortunately this is exactly what we were expecting the moment it became evident that Ukraine is not gonna surrender.

With a grain of salt:

It does imply that the war is becoming much bloodier. These numbers were around 5800 yesterday

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Reading reports of how the Russians have been shelling the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant (the largest in Europe).

Ugh.

 

[User.45]

Reading reports of how the Russians have been shelling the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant (the largest in Europe).

Ugh.

do you have the source?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

@Huntn: Re your post (subsequently amended/corrected) I drew attention to the inaccurate date (re EU accession).

Maybe it is because I am female (I do not speak unless I am sure of - or comfortable with - my facts), or my background as an historian - (boring me, I like facts, and prefer them to opinions unless those opinions are well argued and/or sourced), but, I never - and I mean this - I never - post something I believe to be a fact without having already confirmed this, and that is despite my exceptional (almost anal) memory for dates.

Now, re US exceptionalism (which increasingly exhausts me): No, @Huntn, on that, you were not my target.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

do you have the source?

The source?

There are several.

Try, the Guardian, HuffPost, National Review, Reuters.....

 

[User.45]

The source?

There are several.

Try, the Guardian, HuffPost, National Review, Reuters.....

Well, thanks...

Here it is.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-03-22/h_90d6015ddd64556835791ff5d9cbc857

The Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Rafael Mariano Grossi, has spoken with Ukraine's Prime Minister and the country's nuclear regulator about the reported fire at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, the IAEA said on Twitter early Friday.

Grossi "appeals for halt of use of force and warns of severe danger if reactors hit," the tweet added.
IAEA's warning: Earlier on Friday — before the fire broke out — the IAEA released a statement warning that Russian troops were approaching the area and any fighting near the plant could be disastrous.

Ukraine told the IAEA "a large number of Russian tanks and infantry 'broke through the block-post' to the town of Enerhodar, a few kilometres from the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (NPP)," the IAEA said in a statement.

It added that Ukraine's regulatory authority had sent them an "urgent letter," warning that Russian troops were moving directly toward the nuclear plant and the situation was "critical."

In the statement, Grossi had "appealed for an immediate halt to the use of force at Enerhodar and called on the military forces operating there to refrain from violence near the nuclear power plant."

 

[Huntn]

Well, thanks...

Here it is.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-03-22/h_90d6015ddd64556835791ff5d9cbc857

If the plant does not shut down properly with another Melt down scenario… Russia is in for a world of international hurt.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Russia should've just applied to join NATO.

Actually it was almost done in the early 2000. I think it was a big mistake not allowing some sort of or

2004, @Huntn, 2004.

Not 2009.

And, Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007.

I'm a bit of a pedant (very anal, put it down to my background as an historian; facts matter, and so do dates) about such things.

Elsewhere, I suspect that @Zoidberg, @Pumbaa, @yaxomoxay, and @Arkitect - among others - may agree with me: Please, please, please, spare me US exceptionalism.

And please stop, cease, desist from - thinking that how the US experiences some philosophies (rooted in European history, politics, culture and experience) is the same as what Europe knows, lived, and has experienced. It isn't.

The European historical experience, and political experience - and what passes for what is defined as "right" (far right) and "left" (far-left) is not the same as the US.

Just because what passes for the left in the US is not (slavishly) - or, axiomatically - pro-Russian (a historic hangover from having been pro-Soviet) does not mean that other far-left (and there was a time, in my youth, when I belonged to, danced with, identified with, willingly, perhaps myopically, but most certainly, insanely idealistically, - that world) groups, individuals, fellow-travellers in Europe (anyone take a look at Jeremy Corbyn's fatuous press conferences this week? Or, the voting preferences registered by a few idiots on the far left in the European Parliament, who were elected under Ireland's geninely generous proportional representation electoral system?) do not still (yes, perhaps, illogically, inexplicably) hold these views.

Hear hear! I second each and every single word of this post.

 

[yaxomoxay]

If the plant does not shut down properly with another Melt down scenario… Russia is in for a world of international hurt.

That’s why it was a huge mistake for the west to say “no troops” or other stuff of that kind. Putin will not stop for anything now.

This must be the most destabilizing situation I’ve ever witnessed in my 40 years of life. I truly don’t know what to say. I just want to cry.