Russia-Ukraine

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Typical US-centrism according to which all countries reason in line with US-Perceived notions.

Also, this is exactly why the left will take a pounding in November: it’s never enough. We are at the brink of a major crisis, with the threat of nuclear war, and immediately an American (ok he was born in SA) leftist millionaire has to tell people on the other side of the world that after welcoming million of immigrants, they are racist because in a moment of emergency they welcome other immigrants.

Tying this to cancel culture, it’s 10% somebody or people on the left making a stink about something and 90% right-wing media droning on about that ad nauseam. Add to that people on the right are fairly aligned on most issues while people on the left are a lot more diverse and fractured in their values and priorities. But since most of the right is on the same page they assume the left must also be on their same page. Sooooo…somebody like Trevor Noah points something out, the right has to counter that times 1,000 which gives the impression that the entire left is an army of Trevor Noahs.

To compound that, you even have left or center left public figures, including Obama, buying into the right-wing propaganda and coming out and saying “We really need to dial back the cancel culture, folks.” I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know any militant cancel culture lefties and I’m pretty much engulfed in lefties. But the way the media portrays it, you’d think you wouldn’t be able to step off your porch without getting accosted by one.

But having said all that, it’s been a successful propaganda campaign by the right for which Democrats will lose voters. Somehow they’ll ignore the attempted rampant white washing of history because they believe there’s mass firings of people with impure thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 215]

people on the right are fairly aligned on most issues while people on the left are a lot more diverse and fractured in their values and priorities.

Ain't that the truth. Lately I've been finding myself more frustrated with Democrats/left-of-center people than right-wingers. Trumpists are too far gone anyway. The left-of-center at least is worth debating. But as usual, Republicans can move further and further to the right and it works for them, but Democrats do anything even remotely left-wing and they have to dial it back, make concessions, and apologize.

(And yes, I'm fine with a new thread for this discussion).

 

[yaxomoxay]

Are you claiming Syrian refugees were treated the same way that Ukrainian refugees are being treated now?

No. I am not saying the “same way”. I myself said that there are some differences (including but not limited to timeline). But that doesn’t automatically mean racism as the root of the differences.

“People enter a house” can mean different things.

1) your friends
2) your neighborhors
3) total strangers
4) robbers

In different context
a) invited
b) surprise visit
c) trespassing
e) in a verified emergency
d) in the performance of a criminal act.

Depending on the combination of the above - plus multiple factors of course - behavior and rules will be different.
So 1A will have a much different reaction than 1B, which will be different than 3E or 2B and so on.

Can racism play a role? Undeniable. Is it a role here? Possibly. However I don’t like the automatic argument that since X was done in a certain way than Y has to be equal or it’s racism. No, as in my example below, there are differences that might cause different reactions. The context of Ukraine and the war is much different than the context of Syria. Much much different. (Plus I believe the EU has information to identify Ukrainians; I might be wrong on this but my understanding is that most of the info, at least on criminals, was shared).

 

[JayMysteri0]

Wow!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1499585225546170370/

Mitch?

And a little more Wow!

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1499786773131628551/

Really? Calling for assassinations?

 

[Arkitect]

Putin's Way (Frontline Documentary)

This first aired in 2015, but I see it popped up on the PBS YouTube channel.

It is well worth watching…

And yes, watch til the end. We've got a trapped rat on our hands, and Putin knows all about that.

 

[chengengaun]

Putin's Way (Frontline Documentary)

This first aired in 2015, but I see it popped up on the PBS YouTube channel.

It is well worth watching…

And yes, watch til the end. We've got a trapped rat on our hands, and Putin knows all about that.

Hah, I just watched this a few hours ago. Putin is now getting cornered even within his circle, and it's hard to see how he can exit the stage gracefully.

 

[Arkitect]

Hah, I just watched this a few hours ago. Putin is now getting cornered even within his circle, and it's hard to see how he can exit the stage gracefully.

Yup. I think he's preparing to take it all down with him.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

To compound that, you even have left or center left public figures, including Obama, buying into the right-wing propaganda and coming out and saying “We really need to dial back the cancel culture, folks.” I’m sure they are out there, but I don’t know any militant cancel culture lefties and I’m pretty much engulfed in lefties. But the way the media portrays it, you’d think you wouldn’t be able to step off your porch without getting accosted by one.

Of course the right's attack on cancel culture is hypocritical. Just ask Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, censured by the RNC. And of course Trump immediately turns on anyone who says something unflattering about him. It's just more nonsense fed to their gullible, uncritical audience.

 

[Zoidberg]

I still don't think we (US/Europe/NATO, whatever) should send troops to Ukraine and risk starting WWIII

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is possible that WW3 has already started. Denying it because ICBMs are not flying (yet) is not helpful. So the question is what are we going to do about it?

And before I get called a war hawk, I am very much on the left even by European standards (my American FIL thinks I'm a commie). I protested when my country participated in the Iraq War (not unlike the protests for which people are getting arrested in Moscow right now). Unfortunately, you cannot stop Putin by waving signs against the war, just like you couldn't appease Hitler with diplomacy giving him what he wanted. It only takes one who wants a war, to have a war.

This appeasement attitude regarding Putin –which I used to have as well, because war seemed like something from a distant past that happened to others, not to me– is exactly why he got bolder: he massacred Chechnya and the world looked away. He went to war against Georgia, and the same thing happened. He took parts of Ukraine in broad daylight, and he got a slap on the wrist. That's what he does: he probes, and if he feels like there's no resistance, he will take it.

So now he's going to "take" Ukraine, no matter how brave the Ukrainian resistance is (I include the quotes because the insurgency war will last for as long as the Russians are there). If the West decided to say "stop", our forces would make mince meat of his army and the war would be done in hours. Yes, there is a risk that he will launch a nuke (based on where I live, my family would probably be amongst the first to die, by the way). But if we don't push back for real, the Ukrainians will lose, and he will take the country. Then he will move on to take the next country (Moldova?). Will NATO react if he chomps on just a little bit of Estonia, or will there be some kind of grey area he'll use as a loophole, so that we can say "ah, fair enough, he can have that tiny region" and save face? At what point will you realise that it is not about wanting war (I definitely do not want that), it is about not wanting to have our cities bombed into rubble.

 

[Arkitect]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is possible that WW3 has already started. Denying it because ICBMs are not flying (yet) is not helpful. So the question is what are we going to do about it?

And before I get called a war hawk, I am very much on the left even by European standards (my American FIL thinks I'm a commie). I protested when my country participated in the Iraq War. Unfortunately, you cannot stop Putin by waving signs against the war, just like you couldn't appease Hitler with diplomacy giving him what he wanted. It only takes one who wants a war to have a war, unless you're willing to give them everything they want.

This appeasement attitude regarding Putin –which I used to have as well, because war seemed like something from a distant past that happened to others, not to me– is exactly why he got bolder: he massacred Chechnya and the world looked away. He went to war against Georgia, and the same thing happened. He took parts of Ukraine in broad daylight, and he got a slap on the wrist. That's what he does: he probes, and if he feels like there's no resistance, he will take it.

So now he's going to "take" Ukraine, no matter how brave the Ukrainian resistance is (I include the quotes because the insurgency war will last for as long as the Russians are there). If the West decided to say "stop", our forces would make mince meat of his army and the war would be done in hours. Yes, there is a risk that he will launch a nuke (based on where I live, my family would probably be amongst the first to die, by the way). But if we don't push back for real, the Ukrainians will lose, and he will take the country. At which point, he will move on to take the next country (Moldova?). Will NATO react if he chomps on just a little bit of Estonia, or will there be some kind of grey area he'll use as a loophole, so that we can say "ah, fair enough, he can have that tiny region" and save face? At what point will you realise that it is not about wanting war (I definitely do not want that), it is about not wanting to have our cities bombed into rubble.

Excellent post.
I'm with you on that.

 

[SuperMatt]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is possible that WW3 has already started. Denying it because ICBMs are not flying (yet) is not helpful. So the question is what are we going to do about it?

And before I get called a war hawk, I am very much on the left even by European standards (my American FIL thinks I'm a commie). I protested when my country participated in the Iraq War. Unfortunately, you cannot stop Putin by waving signs against the war, just like you couldn't appease Hitler with diplomacy giving him what he wanted. It only takes one who wants a war to have a war, unless you're willing to give them everything they want.

This appeasement attitude regarding Putin –which I used to have as well, because war seemed like something from a distant past that happened to others, not to me– is exactly why he got bolder: he massacred Chechnya and the world looked away. He went to war against Georgia, and the same thing happened. He took parts of Ukraine in broad daylight, and he got a slap on the wrist. That's what he does: he probes, and if he feels like there's no resistance, he will take it.

So now he's going to "take" Ukraine, no matter how brave the Ukrainian resistance is (I include the quotes because the insurgency war will last for as long as the Russians are there). If the West decided to say "stop", our forces would make mince meat of his army and the war would be done in hours. Yes, there is a risk that he will launch a nuke (based on where I live, my family would probably be amongst the first to die, by the way). But if we don't push back for real, the Ukrainians will lose, and he will take the country. At which point, he will move on to take the next country (Moldova?). Will NATO react if he chomps on just a little bit of Estonia, or will there be some kind of grey area he'll use as a loophole, so that we can say "ah, fair enough, he can have that tiny region" and save face? At what point will you realise that it is not about wanting war (I definitely do not want that), it is about not wanting to have our cities bombed into rubble.

The Russian convoy would have been totally impractical if they hadn’t wiped out Ukraine’s Air Force first. Even a few NATO planes could end this, like you said.

 

[Deleted member 215]

It's not even about not wanting war, it's about not wanting the world destroyed. The last time this happened was before nuclear weapons. I'm not going to support something that means my home could be nuked.

Yes, if Putin uses nukes, then the conversation changes. We've gone past the threshhold at that point. But before that happens, I am going to support what I can to prevent nuclear war.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is possible that WW3 has already started. Denying it because ICBMs are not flying (yet) is not helpful. So the question is what are we going to do about it?

And before I get called a war hawk, I am very much on the left even by European standards (my American FIL thinks I'm a commie). I protested when my country participated in the Iraq War (not unlike the protests for which people are getting arrested in Moscow right now). Unfortunately, you cannot stop Putin by waving signs against the war, just like you couldn't appease Hitler with diplomacy giving him what he wanted. It only takes one who wants a war, to have a war.

This appeasement attitude regarding Putin –which I used to have as well, because war seemed like something from a distant past that happened to others, not to me– is exactly why he got bolder: he massacred Chechnya and the world looked away. He went to war against Georgia, and the same thing happened. He took parts of Ukraine in broad daylight, and he got a slap on the wrist. That's what he does: he probes, and if he feels like there's no resistance, he will take it.

So now he's going to "take" Ukraine, no matter how brave the Ukrainian resistance is (I include the quotes because the insurgency war will last for as long as the Russians are there). If the West decided to say "stop", our forces would make mince meat of his army and the war would be done in hours. Yes, there is a risk that he will launch a nuke (based on where I live, my family would probably be amongst the first to die, by the way). But if we don't push back for real, the Ukrainians will lose, and he will take the country. Then he will move on to take the next country (Moldova?). Will NATO react if he chomps on just a little bit of Estonia, or will there be some kind of grey area he'll use as a loophole, so that we can say "ah, fair enough, he can have that tiny region" and save face? At what point will you realise that it is not about wanting war (I definitely do not want that), it is about not wanting to have our cities bombed into rubble.

Agreed, with all my heart.

I think that not putting troops right outside the two regions that he wanted will be remembered as a huge mistake.

 

[yaxomoxay]

The Russian convoy would have been totally impractical if they hadn’t wiped out Ukraine’s Air Force first. Even a few NATO planes could end this, like you said.

Yep. I am going out on a limb here but I think that the destruction of the huge convoy would’ve probably caused Putin’s assassination too.

 

[Zoidberg]

It's not even about not wanting war, it's about not wanting the world destroyed. The last time this happened was before nuclear weapons. I'm not going to support something that means my home could be nuked.

Yes, if Putin uses nukes, then the conversation changes. We've gone past the threshhold at that point. But before that happens, I am going to support what I can to prevent nuclear war.

So as long as he doesn't use nukes, he can do whatever he wants? Cluster bombs, FOABs in cities, flamethrowers on occupied buildings?

 

[Deleted member 215]

So as long as he doesn't use nukes, he can do whatever he wants? Cluster bombs, FOABs in cities, flamethrowers on occupied buildings?

How willing are you to risk nuclear war? How great do you think the risk is if the West sends in troops right now to combat the Russians?

 

[yaxomoxay]

How willing are you to risk nuclear war?

If you want peace, the willingness must be total.

How great do you think the risk is if the West sends in troops right now to combat the Russians?

In Ukraine it’s too late now.

 

[Zoidberg]

How willing are you to risk nuclear war? How great do you think the risk is if the West sends in troops right now to combat the Russians?

How willing I am to risk nuclear war is irrelevant, if the other side is going to level my city/country anyway. Look at videos of Kyiv, you have whole avenues that look like a bunch of rubble, and if you look closer, you see what's left of electric car chargers, modern things. Barely over a week ago, they had life much like yours. If you think that can't happen to you, think again. Sometimes we just get caught in the gears of History.

By the way, in the other thread, I answered "go all in in Ukraine, short of using nukes". Yes there's a chance he'll nuke something, but if he does, it's because he planned on doing it all the same.

 

[Deleted member 215]

I would be for going all in on Ukraine if it meant no risk of nuclear war. So depends on how willing one is to take that chance. I do not like the odds.

(And I do think yaxo is right that it's too late to go all in).

 

[Zoidberg]

(And I do think yaxo is right that it's too late to go all in).

If the West had placed troops in Ukraine ahead (assuming we'd have Ukraine's permission) we'd have given Putin the upper hand in future negotiations, Biden, Macron, et al would have been portrayed as warmongers and likely lost elections to Russia-friendly parties.

It's the preparation paradox, again. If you prepare for something well enough, it doesn't happen, so in retrospect it appears you have overreacted.

When one side is willing to fight, and the other will do anything to avoid fighting, there's only one possible outcome.