Russia-Ukraine

Seems like all of this could've been avoided with a guarantee that Ukraine would not join NATO.
This is the equivalent of giving your lunch to a bully and expecting them to stop bullying you. Like that's what bullies do, right?

In many ways I think NATO has outlived its purpose.
Coming from the ex-Soviet union. Hell fucking no it didn't.
Would we tolerate Mexico joining a Russian alliance?
The analogy would be more comparable if we invaded Southern Canada (cultural similarities), and then didn't expect Canada to seek alliances to help defend itself from future invasions.
 
There is no way that Russia won’t invade. Putin certainly got some sort of green light from the western countries. Call me a cynic, but I am pretty sure all the calls and visits to Putin were to make sure that gas would still flow westward even after the invasion rather than actual diplomacy. Want to stop - or at least pressure - a Russian invasion? Put 1000 American soldiers at the border, or leave the embassy in Kiev.
This is a totally absurd statement assuming it is worth it for Russia to invade. If Putin doesn't invade in the next 2 weeks, he won't. He underestimated the NATO's response and now he is trying to save face.


I almost spit my coffee. Biden’s foreign policy is as awful as the post Bill Clinton foreign policy. And here he is showing, once again, American unreliability. I am actually very disappointed because I had high hopes for Biden in matters of foreign policy.
So humor us, what would indicate/prove reliability?

Putin is a formidable enemy, and nobody should underestimate him. He's an exKGB mastermind who has 40+ years of experience that no westerner has access to, and let's be fair, he is also very smart, otherwise he would have already been sidelined. I do think Putin expected this to go down like Crimea and got more pushback than anticipated.
 
This is a totally absurd statement assuming it is worth it for Russia to invade. If Putin doesn't invade in the next 2 weeks, he won't. He underestimated the NATO's response and now he is trying to save face.



So humor us, what would indicate/prove reliability?

Putin is a formidable enemy, and nobody should underestimate him. He's an exKGB mastermind who has 40+ years of experience that no westerner has access to, and let's be fair, he is also very smart, otherwise he would have already been sidelined. I do think Putin expected this to go down like Crimea and got more pushback than anticipated.
I wonder - was Clinton’s foreign policy the worst in recent times? It seems like the GW Bush foreign policy failures would be hard to beat. Over a trillion bucks wasted in Afghanistan, and nothing but corpses to show for it.
 
I wonder - was Clinton’s foreign policy the worst in recent times? It seems like the GW Bush foreign policy failures would be hard to beat. Over a trillion bucks wasted in Afghanistan, and nothing but corpses to show for it.
I'm old enough to see this ad on TV:
The advert, which has been broadcast in the US for the past week, begins with footage from the 1972 Olympic games in Munich, during which 13 Israeli athletes were killed by terrorists, and continues with a narrator saying: "Freedom is spreading through the world like a sunrise. And this Olympics there will be two more free nations and two less terrorist regimes."

As the flags of Afghanistan and Iraq flutter in the breeze, it concludes: "With strength, resolve and courage, democracy will triumph over terror and hope will defeat hatred."

I was extremely apolitical then, but this really made my blood boil.
 
From listening to people who know what they are talking about it would seem that the Russians would make huge gains in the first few hours or days, but that the following months/years could become Afghanistan II.
Ukraine has significant military forces. Their equipment is old so they need help in that regard –and their Navy fits in a small marina– but between the regular army and volunteers, they could make it extremely costly for the Russians in the long term, which is why the strategy of giving them top notch weaponry is actually a smart move from the West:

- No Westerners are put in danger.
- It costs very little (a relatively cheap single-use missile can down a very expensive helicopter/tank).
- I stopped counting, but the US, the UK, and several Baltic countries have sent many thousands of these (that we know of). That's much harder to defeat than ~20 aging, fragile fighter jets (or however many Ukraine has) that can only briefly stay airborne and need huge logistics behind.
- The Soviet Union/Russia already knows how much damage these things can do in a long-term guerrilla war so they will think twice.
If the Russians were to invade Ukraine - (and they would love to be able to provoke Ukraine into starting such a conflict - as had happened in Georgia in 2008) - and, even now, that is by no means definite, for it is better, perhaps, to threaten to do so in the hope of actually achieving one's aims (a permanently divided Ukraine, and a western part of Ukraine only ever able to join some sort of western political/economic (EU) or military (NATO) alliance on the condition that they recognise the separate existence and/or independence of a Russian controlled/influenced east Ukraine) - while they may conquer the country, I very much doubt that they would be able to hold western Ukraine. Not long term.

This is because they (Russia) are loathed in the west of the country (Ukraine) and their rule would never be (permanently) accepted by the population, and the price (political, military, economic, diplomatic) of insisting on this would come at a cost that Russia would not be willing to pay.

Therefore, I would envisage, instead, a strategic Russian withdrawal from the west of the country, (remember, Russia withdrew from some of the military gains they had made in Georgia in 2008, - they could have taken Tbilisi had they wished to do so - but instead withdrew to the places where - which - they really wanted), and peace talks aimed at securing a permanent - and internationally recognised and accepted (which would include recognising Donbass, Luhansk, Crimea, perhaps Kyiv, as under, or subject to, Russian influence) agreement which would formalise the permanent division of the country.
 
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The chance of Russia actually invading is tiny. War costs money and Russia does not have enough to fuel what a full scale invasion of Ukraine would cost. Russia has also seen the effects of Turkish made drones on their tanks and artillery. Ukraine has those drones. The best Russia can hope to achieve is something really clever utilising their special forces.
They want concessions. If Ukraine and/or NATO doesn’t give them anything, that would be best. Let Putin know that this type of nonsense is not tolerated and doesn’t get him anything that he wants.
 
Let Putin know that this type of nonsense is not tolerated and doesn’t get him anything that he wants.

It seems the nonsense was tolerated with Crimea so who can really blame him for trying here.

Maybe he can get a bunch of Palestinians to move there and then at that point we'll just hand him the keys.
 
It seems the nonsense was tolerated with Crimea so who can really blame him for trying here.
There's a big difference, though: at the time Ukraine was experiencing general unrest with only an interim government, so it was harder to determine a right course of action when there wasn't an established government. For instance, during the 2014 Crimean crisis, a number a high ranking officers promptly defected and joined the Russians. You wouldn't want to send 5000 man-pads only for them to end up in the hands of the Russian military.

That said, it would be wrong to say that it was "tolerated": Russia was subject to sanctions, which was a weak response, but it was not an endorsement either.

It was smart of the Russians, though, looking back: as I understand it, by preemptively annexing Crimea and fuelling a war in the East, they ensured that if Ukraine eventually elected a democratic, pro-Western government, they would be unable to join NATO unless they renounced to their sovereignty over the East of the country (countries cannot join while they are in an active conflict such as that one).
 
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The timing of this is very interesting. Russia's economy depends heavily on fossil fuel exports, while the rest of the world tries to wean itself off them. Germany's reliance on Russia's natural gas is often pointed at as the reason why Germany is willing to look the other way in matters such as these, but it's not like they don't realise that being reliant on natural gas is a bad thing.

In reality, over 50% of Germany's energy is from renewable sources and that number keeps increasing every year. Natural gas is only something like 13% or 15% of Germany's energy supply, but it is an important one for a very large percentage of German homes. Back in 2000 approx 74% of new German homes had gas boilers installed for heating. That number has gradually come down over the years to around 40% in 2020. I believe that Germany, much like the UK, plans to make new gas boiler installations illegal by 2026 and are pushing for heat pumps and pellet based heating instead.

Russia will not have the same grip over Europe in the near future, as it does now.

What's preventing Russia from diversifying its economy?
 
From the meeting in Moscow between Putin and Scholz (the German chancellor):

60785471_403.jpg

Caption this...
 
Probably the fact that it’s controlled by a bunch of people who behave very much like a mafia organisation and draw their power and wealth from controlling the fossil fuel industry. It was not an accident that certain people ended up with the majority of shares in the then bankrupt and newly privatised state companies when these shares became available to ‘the public’

I assumed it was something like but I didn’t want to preemptively prove my ignorance on this one. I was going to say they are like the Texas of Europe but I feel like even Texas has diversified into finance, tech, and abortion bounty hunting.
 
Quite the distance but that’s where all visitors of Putin had to sit recently from what I recall.
Not so. This is him meeting Kazakhstan's newest strongman on the 10th this month:

c3700000-0aff-0242-d293-08d9ec9baed2_w1597_n_r0_st.jpg


It's his way of being petty:

Big table = "I'll sit down with you and pretend I listen to you and we both know I don't care about what you say, but you have to keep the appearances, and the table will show on every picture and people will talk about how big it is and how I put you at the other end on purpose."

Small table = "See, I had other tables, I just chose to use the big one for you so in every picture of the meeting the table will remind everyone of how little I care about you and how I made you talk to me for hours even though I had no intention of negotiating."
 
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Not so. This is him meeting Kazakhstan's newest strongman on the 10th this month:

c3700000-0aff-0242-d293-08d9ec9baed2_w1597_n_r0_st.jpg


It's his way of being petty:

Big table = "I'll sit down with you and pretend I listen to you and we both know I don't care about what you say, but you have to keep the appearances, and it will show on every picture and people will talk about how big the table is and how I put you at the other end on purpose."

Small table = "See, I had other tables, I just chose to use the big one with you so in every picture of the meeting the big table will remind everyone of how little I care about you."
Honey, I shrunk the table…

Looks like the same centerpiece though!
 
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