Russia-Ukraine

[Thomas Veil]

So it seems like Putin’s use of these hypersonic missiles doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Moscow's claim about firing hypersonic missiles could be more hype, experts say

"It’s a bit of a head-scratcher to be honest with you," a Pentagon official said.

www.nbcnews.com

“Russia doesn’t have many of them and, frankly, doesn’t need to use them in this conflict,” said Mark Cancian of the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

 

[AG_PhamD]

So it seems like Putin’s use of these hypersonic missiles doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Moscow's claim about firing hypersonic missiles could be more hype, experts say

"It’s a bit of a head-scratcher to be honest with you," a Pentagon official said.

www.nbcnews.com

A page or so back I have a post questioning their use considering the circumstances. And the fact that these “hypersonic” weapons are not what we think of when that word is used. They are quasi ballistic air launch missiles. Nearly all ballistic missiles are hypersonic. These are no hypersonic glide or cruise missiles that are really an entirely different story.

Another question is how many of these actually exist. Russia is very much into hyping new technologies but can’t afford to field them. Take for instance the Su-57, there are maybe 3 operational planes. The T-14 tank was supposed to be in mass production years ago but haven’t gone anywhere. They maybe have 100 models. It’s a lot of posturing and marketing. Marketing because without foreign sales Russia can’t afford to fund their own army.

In other news, the US is finally sending our Soviet era air defense systems, which we acquired for testing and reverse engineering many years ago. It’s far from the best technology but any little bit helps.

 

[Huntn]

From the Church’s perspective, and formally, it means that Russia will be “reserved” for a holy purpose. The symbolic mean of the consecration to the immaculate heart of Mary basically means that through the wounds, Russia will serve a holy purpose.

Obviously I know that I am the only one here that believes in this stuff, so I report it more for political and historical importance.

The main political significance - and why John Paul II was very intentional in not naming Russia in his consecrations - is that by consecrating the Vatican “expects/wants” Russia to become westernized (and of course to become Catholic ), in order to be in the future a bastion of… goodness, if you will.

But in your previous post you, unless I misread it, you said Russia and Ukraine would be consecrated. so I was thinking consecrated is considered something done as an approval mechanism.

Post in thread 'Russia-Ukraine'
https://talkedabout.com/threads/russia-ukraine.2303/post-94787

 

[Huntn]

Here’s a decent explanation

Pope Francis will consecrate Russia and Ukraine. What's that mean?

A Pillar Explainer

www.pillarcatholic.com

Which touches the important point ref. John Paul II:

“the pope was urged not to mention Russia by name in the public prayers of the 1984 consecration, because it would anger the Russian Orthodox hierarchy, who opposed the notion of Catholics consecrating their country to Mary, and because of Vatican efforts at political diplomacy with the USSR.”

In other words, the Pope is now saying that “fixing” Russia (and the Russian Orthodox Church) is fair game and the ethical thing to do.

What I think of as consecration is when some person of notoriety like Mary is consecrated, she is recognized as a holy, special person. I don’t see how this would apply to Russia, not even Ukraine, just because you are unjustly attacked by an evil person does that make you “holy”?

To clarify, I’m not arguing or disagreeing with anything you have said about this, just trying to understand what this means to the Catholic Church. I’m assuming it is trying to put pressure on Russia and I wonder would the Church consecrate someone like Putin, Hitler, or Nazi Germany? It’s just not making sense to me, unless they are trying to say Russia you are sacred, don’t let this ass wipe of a leader ruin you?

 

[yaxomoxay]

What I think of as consecration is when some person of notoriety like Mary is consecrated, she is recognized as a holy, special person. I don’t see how this would apply to Russia, not even Ukraine, just because you are unjustly attacked by an evil person does that make you “holy”?

To clarify, I’m not arguing or disagreeing with anything you have said about this, just trying to understand what this means to the Catholic Church. I’m assuming it is trying to put pressure on Russia and I wonder would the Church consecrate someone like Putin, Hitler, or Nazi Germany? It’s just not making sense to me, unless they are trying to say Russia you are sacred, don’t let this ass wipe of a leader ruin you?

No problem. Let’s see if I can explain it better.

First and foremost, a consecration is a formal act, and it can be true for a person as for an entity (church, family etc). In this case, it’s a very important formal act of the Vatican, with clear political meaning and consequences; it also stems from the 2010-2015 reluctance by the Vatican from formally accusing Russia and Putin. This act is a total pivot in diplomatic ties which will have consequences for years to come and will likely cause a huge chasm between Catholics and Russian Orthodox. I don’t see a persecution of Russian Catholics as impossible.

As for the more “theological” explanation, remember that it’s not simply “consecration of Russia” but “consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary.” In other words, the pope entrusts the sanctity of Russia to Mary’s intercession, and affirms the Church’s belief that Russia can become a place in which holiness (within human limits) might actually arise. It’s an affirmation that in order to have long-lasting peace, Russia needs to be… fixed, purified. It is also a recognition (or a declaration, if you will) that the situation is so dire that simple human intervention isn’t enough (which theologically it will piss off the Russian patriarch as technically he would be the one entrusted with the sanctity of Russia).

As for your last question, no. The consecration of Russia wouldn’t consecrate Putin unless he repented. Actually, with this formal act, the Vatican is making sure that Russia (the people, heritage etc) are separate from the ruler (Putin, oligarchs, etc.)

 

[Huntn]

No problem. Let’s see if I can explain it better.

First and foremost, a consecration is a formal act, and it can be true for a person as for an entity (church, family etc). In this case, it’s a very important formal act of the Vatican, with clear political meaning and consequences; it also stems from the 2010-2015 reluctance by the Vatican from formally accusing Russia and Putin. This act is a total pivot in diplomatic ties which will have consequences for years to come and will likely cause a huge chasm between Catholics and Russian Orthodox. I don’t see a persecution of Russian Catholics as impossible.

As for the more “theological” explanation, remember that it’s not simply “consecration of Russia” but “consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary.” In other words, the pope entrusts the sanctity of Russia to Mary’s intercession, and affirms the Church’s belief that Russia can become a place in which holiness (within human limits) might actually arise. It’s an affirmation that in order to have long-lasting peace, Russia needs to be… fixed, purified. It is also a recognition (or a declaration, if you will) that the situation is so dire that simple human intervention isn’t enough (which theologically it will piss off the Russian patriarch as technically he would be the one entrusted with the sanctity of Russia).

As for your last question, no. The consecration of Russia wouldn’t consecrate Putin unless he repented. Actually, with this formal act, the Vatican is making sure that Russia (the people, heritage etc) are separate from the ruler (Putin, oligarchs, etc.)

Thank you, I appreciate it. It kind of sounds like we will consecrate Russia so it burns him when he touches it, while being a totally symbolic religious-political act of scolding.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

another piece of news that might be of interest - especially to @Scepticalscribe - on March 25th, Pope Francis in unison with all the Bishops of the world and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI will consecrate Russia (and Ukraine).

This is a major event which has been discussed and subject of much controversy since at least 1917. For the political purpose of this forum, just know that this will be one of the strongest political signals of the Catholic Church in recent memory, and will likely piss off the Russian Orthodox Church to no end. It will also set the tone for Catholics worldwide (that’s also why Catholic Churches worldwide are rising lots of $$$ for Ukraine).

In other words, within its context, this is a massive development

Pope invites bishops to join him in consecration of Russia and Ukraine - Vatican News

The Consecration of Russia and Ukraine to the Immaculate Heart of Mary will be pronounced by the Pope on the afternoon of Friday 25 March in St ...

www.vaticannews.va

Fascinating.

Whatever about the role of the Catholic Church in this, I cannot see any way in which the Orthodox communion will not be deeply, and perhaps irrevocably, split as a result of this invasion.

That deranged dream of a united Russian/Slav world - with a political capital in Moscow, and a spiritual capital in Kyiv, (even though Moscow is, supposedly, "the third Jerusalem") - is, paradoxically, ever further away, as a direct consequence of this invasion.

Reaching into the depths of pan-Slavic history, I am reminded of the bitter observation - recalled by some of the reform communists of the Dubcek government during the Prague Spring, (quoting and paraphrasing the 19th century writer and philospher, Palacky) - that, "Russians say that Russians are Slavs, so that they can say that Slavs are Russian."

 

[Scepticalscribe]

No problem. Let’s see if I can explain it better.

First and foremost, a consecration is a formal act, and it can be true for a person as for an entity (church, family etc). In this case, it’s a very important formal act of the Vatican, with clear political meaning and consequences; it also stems from the 2010-2015 reluctance by the Vatican from formally accusing Russia and Putin. This act is a total pivot in diplomatic ties which will have consequences for years to come and will likely cause a huge chasm between Catholics and Russian Orthodox. I don’t see a persecution of Russian Catholics as impossible.

As for the more “theological” explanation, remember that it’s not simply “consecration of Russia” but “consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary.” In other words, the pope entrusts the sanctity of Russia to Mary’s intercession, and affirms the Church’s belief that Russia can become a place in which holiness (within human limits) might actually arise. It’s an affirmation that in order to have long-lasting peace, Russia needs to be… fixed, purified. It is also a recognition (or a declaration, if you will) that the situation is so dire that simple human intervention isn’t enough (which theologically it will piss off the Russian patriarch as technically he would be the one entrusted with the sanctity of Russia).

As for your last question, no. The consecration of Russia wouldn’t consecrate Putin unless he repented. Actually, with this formal act, the Vatican is making sure that Russia (the people, heritage etc) are separate from the ruler (Putin, oligarchs, etc.)

Exactly.

Normally, (in political, philosophical, diplomatic, geographical and theological terms) the Catholic Church will not, (not in these somewhat ecumenical times,) stamp on, or tread on, the theological toes of a fellow Christian denomination, instead, recognising that the spiritual welfare of those people is the responsibility of - and lies in the hands of - their own (national) church, Protestant, or Orthodox, as the case may be.

This is the Catholic Church (never mind that its name states that it has a "universal" theological jurisdiction) asserting its right - or claim - to pass judgment - theologically - on what is happening in the lands of (and under the theological jurisdiction of) a fellow Christian denomination.

As @yaxomoxay says, in that context, - where theology meets diplomacy (for the Vatican is a state as well as the home to one of the world's great religions) this is significant.

Not least as - until recently - the Catholic Church had been attempting to construct closer ties with the Orthodox world.

 

[Eric]

Good.

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up​

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up

Officials have urged Ukrainians not to share footage of military equipment or checkpoints on social media.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Zoidberg]

Good.

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up​

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up

Officials have urged Ukrainians not to share footage of military equipment or checkpoints on social media.

www.businessinsider.com

"Loose TikToks Sink Ships."

One of the journalists I follow on Twitter did a short thread on the security measures the Ukrainians have put in place, and they are quite stringent. You'd think that not broadcasting on TikTok the position of the forces that are defending your life would be obvious, but apparently not.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Good.

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up​

TikToker arrested after posting clip of Ukrainian military vehicles parked near a mall that Russia later blew up

Officials have urged Ukrainians not to share footage of military equipment or checkpoints on social media.

www.businessinsider.com

What a moron. Why would you risk the people and hardware that stand between you and occupation?

I suppose that makes striking the mall legitimate strike. It’s hard to say it’s a civilian target if it’s storing military equipment.

 

[Citysnaps]

Ukraine Just Captured Part Of One Of Russia's Most Capable Electronic Warfare Systems

Russia's lost Krasukha-4 electronic warfare system command module would be a prize for foreign intelligence agencies.

www.thedrive.com

Ooops.

 

[yaxomoxay]

And so, it begins.

Putin Wants Hostile States to Pay Rubles for Gas, Interfax Says

Russia plans to demand ruble payments for natural gas purchases from European nations, deepening its standoff with the west and potentially aggravating Europe’s worst energy crunch since the 1970s.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Eric]

And so, it begins.

Putin Wants Hostile States to Pay Rubles for Gas, Interfax Says

Russia plans to demand ruble payments for natural gas purchases from European nations, deepening its standoff with the west and potentially aggravating Europe’s worst energy crunch since the 1970s.

www.bloomberg.com

Behind a paywall but l assume hostile states = anyone who doesn't support the bombing hospitals and schools.

Looking forward to the day someone drops a bunker buster on this piece of shit.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Behind a paywall but l assume hostile states = anyone who doesn't support the bombing hospitals and schools.

Looking forward to the day someone drops a bunker buster on this piece of shit.

It says all the EU plus Japan, Switzerland and a few more.

 

[Eric]

IMO he's dangerous whether we put boots on the ground or not.

Putin ally warns of nuclear dystopia due to United States​

Putin ally warns of nuclear dystopia due to United States

One of President Vladimir Putin's closest allies warned the United States on Wednesday that the world could spiral towards a nuclear dystopia if Washington pressed on with what the Kremlin casts as a long-term plot to destroy Russia. Dmitry Medvedev, who was president from 2008 to 2012 and is...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Macky-Mac]

And so, it begins.

Putin Wants Hostile States to Pay Rubles for Gas, Interfax Says

Russia plans to demand ruble payments for natural gas purchases from European nations, deepening its standoff with the west and potentially aggravating Europe’s worst energy crunch since the 1970s.

www.bloomberg.com

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. It seems to me that this would be an inevitable aspect of this conflict. Of course there are contracts in place that specify how payment is to be made, so Russia may not be able to make this switch happen at all, although it could just stop the supply. As the article points out;

"...The order may mean some terms of Russia’s contracts with European customers, which are mostly in euros -- will need to be renegotiated...."

 

[yaxomoxay]

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. It seems to me that this would be an inevitable aspect of this conflict. Of course there are contracts in place that specify how payment is to be made, so Russia may not be able to make this switch happen at all, although it could just stop the supply. As the article points out;

"...The order may mean some terms of Russia’s contracts with European customers, which are mostly in euros -- will need to be renegotiated...."

Like you, I am really curious. I see the negotiation happening because the EU badly needs gas and Russia badly needs Rubles (and one method to keep its value up).

 

[Yoused]

Hackread - Latest Cybersecurity News, Press Releases & Technology Today

www.hackread.com

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Watch This Russian Journalist and Former Politician Predict the Outcome in Ukraine Back in April 2021

Aleksandr Nevzorov seemed to see exactly how things would play out. Why didn't Vladimir Putin?

www.esquire.com

So it seems when you surround yourself with yes men you don’t always get the outcome you believed.

I’m tempted to make some US connections on that one but I won’t derail the thread.