Transgender, a Challenge for the Conservative Mindset

Renzatic said:
It's like all the conservatives on Facebook that scream about their recent hash of book bannings not being as bad as those hypocritical liberals wanting to ban Cat in the Hat.

...was that a big push among liberals? No, it wasn't. I think it was just some local thing brought up by some high strung people. I wouldn't have even remembered it being a thing if it weren't brought up recently.

The thing is, broad brush accusations are part and parcel with arguing politics on the internet. It's annoying, and you should call it out when it happens, but really, the best thing to do is offer up a more compelling, preferably less cheap, counterpoint.
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The biggest problem I have with the right-wing side of this argument is as follows:

They are using laws to force their way on others. Banning books, censoring teachers, prosecuting parents who have transgender kids for child abuse, etc.

They claim liberals are doing the same thing through cancel culture or decisions made by “woke” corporations. I’m sorry, but that isn’t the same as using the state to make your opponents’ views or ideas LITERALLY illegal.

Passing laws in an attempt to stop natural changes to society is just pissing into the wind. It won‘t stop the changes from happening, and it just blows back on the person doing it. They tried it when Galileo told them the world was round, and guess what? The world didn’t magically flatten out because they wanted it to.
 
SuperMatt said:
They are using laws to force their way on others.
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That is one thing I've noticed when I decide to waste my time making fun of people on Facebook. For a bunch who constantly preach about keeping government small, and taking care of your own problems, they tend to support the government legislating itself into other people's lives surprisingly quickly.

It's not the government's job to prove us with cheap healthcare, but micromanaging sports organizations, defining for them who can or cannot compete in certain events? Well, that's perfectly kosher.

I wholly support big government, so long as it's being used to fuck over someone I don't like. I can't abide them helping anyone, because god forbid my tax dollars go towards enabling some deviant's lifestyle. WANGS IS WANGS AND VAJANEUHS IS VAJANEUHS!
 
Herdfan said:
Doesn't matter since she is the author.
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Of course it matters. They are a hate group with their sole purpose being to take away rights. Simple as that. They will cherry pick cases to forward their agenda. Once again: the expected link to a right-wing attack group, the Alliance Defending Freedom (sic)
 
There are certain groups (ex: certain organized religions), whose charters/doctrines/bylaws at a minimum encourage, and sometimes demand, that their belief systems be imposed on people outside of their group. Their preference is to make you "one of us ...", call it, passive indoctrination (with maybe a little scare tactics, i.e., "Have you been saved?"), but if you won't/can't be part of the group, doesn't matter, you're still going to follow their rules.

I've noticed that all the groups I dislike, follow this same behavior.
 
The reason there's so much focus on trans women as opposed to trans men is that conservatives have always strongly played up things that could be seen as a threat to white women and children. Trans men are not an obvious threat to white women and children, so they more or less ignore them and the focus is on trans women, predatory men hiding in bathrooms or threatening women's sports. It's ironically sexist against men because it implies that men are inherently predatory (a similar current I think underlies those who have a problem with the idea of a male babysitter).
 
TBL said:
The reason there's so much focus on trans women as opposed to trans men is that conservatives have always strongly played up things that could be seen as a threat to white women and children. Trans men are not an obvious threat to white women and children, so they more or less ignore them and the focus is on trans women, predatory men hiding in bathrooms or threatening women's sports. It's ironically sexist against men because it implies that men are inherently predatory (a similar current I think underlies those who have a problem with the idea of a male babysitter).
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The 'ole "What can we do to scare white people today?" It works, and that's why they continue to do it.
 
I think this is a very complex issue that both sides tend to oversimplify. It amazes me how big of an issue this has become considering how few people are transgender. It also amazes me how litigious this has become- whether it be having to protect people’s ability to transition or preventing it and inhabiting the ability to even talk about it.

If parents want to debate at what age issues of sexuality are discussed in school and in what manner, I think there is merit to that. A lot of the incidents in the media that some parents are outraged about I think can be seen as age-inappropriate education. But that does not mean such realities should should be censored from a child’s entire life experience- it’s not productive or realistic.

From a medical perspective, considering the statistics, I think we need to be careful to properly determine who should be a good candidate for puberty blockers and surgery. Both are significant steps with risks and irreversible consequences. These are monumental decisions that a young teenager may not be fully equipped to comprehend or may change as they develop further.

I think this is an important perspective on the matter:
quillette.com

Forget What Gender Activists Tell You. Here’s What Medical Transition Looks Like

Medical transition, such as the kind I went through, can enhance an illusion that helps some gender dysphoric individuals navigate the world with more comfort.
quillette.com quillette.com

To be clear, my opinion is not to ban gender affirming treatments or make it practically impossible. My point is we should be careful as to how we judge when a patient is fit for such treatments and that they fully understand the potential risks. It concerns greatly me when you have large movements pushing against things like pre-surgery psych assessments (which exist with a number of other types of treatments unrelated to gender).

If children want to experiment and explore gender, that’s harmless in my opinion. But when it comes to hormones and surgery, I am just advocating that exercise be cautioned. In the noble effort to improve transpeople’s access to gender confirming treatment and social acceptance, we need to be careful not to let vulnerable kids (or even adults) get swept into making decisions the might later regret. I think it’s important for this to be further researched to better predict how we can help these people.
 
^Important valid points. I've said this before, but though it is possible for someone to know they are trans from a young age, it's also possible that certain behaviors and "signs" are not indicative of gender dysphoria but of something else and if anyone is going to transition, you must be absolutely certain that is what is happening. And they must be old enough to make their own, informed decision about it with a doctor's input. It's not helpful to put up a wall and label anyone who has questions or concerns about any of this "transphobic". Let's talk about it.
 
TBL said:
^Important valid points. I've said this before, but though it is possible for someone to know they are trans from a young age, it's also possible that certain behaviors and "signs" are not indicative of gender dysphoria but of something else and if anyone is going to transition, you must be absolutely certain that is what is happening. And they must be old enough to make their own, informed decision about it with a doctor's input. It's not helpful to put up a wall and label anyone who questions any of this "transphobic". Let's talk about it.
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Let’s allow young people, their parents, and doctors to work through these issues. Politicians threatening to lock parents up or take away their kids if they support gender transition is NOT the right way to do things.
 
Herdfan said:
So is it transphobic to question the fairness of a biological male competing against biological female?

I think it is a legitimate question.
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It isn’t transphobic for sport governing bodies to ask the question... because they are seeking solutions to allow transgender athletes to compete in a way that is fair for all.

It could be transphobic when people constantly harp on it. It could be transphobic when politicians ban all transgender people from participating in sports entirely.

My question would be: do most people believe in “live and let live”? If so, why constantly complain about transgender people competing in sports since it hasn’t affected over 99% of them directly and most likely never will? Instead, laws are passed attacking transgender athletes and transgender children. They aren’t hurting anybody, but for some reason they are the current punching bags for the right-wing.
 
SuperMatt said:
My question would be: do most people believe in “live and let live”? If so, why constantly complain about transgender people competing in sports since it hasn’t affected over 99% of them directly and most likely never will? Instead, laws are passed attacking transgender athletes and transgender children. They aren’t hurting anybody, but for some reason they are the current punching bags for the right-wing.
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Just going to repost something I wrote in another thread:

DT said:
There are certain groups (ex: certain organized religions), whose charters/doctrines/bylaws at a minimum encourage, and sometimes demand, that their belief systems be imposed on people outside of their group. Their preference is to make you "one of us ...", call it, passive indoctrination (with maybe a little scare tactics, i.e., "Have you been saved?"), but if you won't/can't be part of the group, doesn't matter, you're still going to follow their rules.

I've noticed that all the groups I dislike, follow this same behavior.
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:unsure:
 
Herdfan said:
So is it transphobic to question the fairness of a biological male competing against biological female?

I think it is a legitimate question.
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For once, as it happens, I am in agreement with you.

Questions do need to be asked.

Now, I don't care if this "applies to the elite 1%" - and I am writing as someone who loathes the very concept of working out, or gym culture, and used to detest sports (when I was expected to try to play them). So, personally, this doesn't apply to me.

However, it does apply to girls and women who are talented at sports, and it is a legitimate question to ask.

And, to my mind, it goes (or has the potential to go) far further.

What of female only spaces?

Changing rooms, rest rooms (and no, I am not comfortable with the ardent stance of the more motivated and - yes rabid - members of the trans community on such issues).

Okay: What of other female only spaces, places and spaces that are female safe spaces only for reasons of safety? Domestic violence shelters, female prisons?

Seriously, there are very good reasons why some spaces (historically, carved out and protected with considerable difficulty and often in the teeth of fierce and vehement conservative (often male) opposition) are designated female safe spaces only.
 
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Scepticalscribe said:
For once, as it happens, I am in agreement with you.+
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I think it is the THIRD time. Better watch out. ;)


Scepticalscribe said:
Questions do need to be asked.

Now, I don't care if this "applies to the elite 1%" - and I am writing as someone who loathes the very concept of working out, or gym culture, and used to detest sports (when I was expected to try to play them). So, personally, this doesn't apply to me.

However, it does apply to girls and womne who are talented at sports, and it is a legitimate question to ask.

And, to my mind, it goes (or has the potential to go) far further.

What of female only spaces?

Changing rooms, rest rooms (and no, I am not comfortable with the stance of the more rabid members of the trans community oon such issues).

Okay: What of other female only spaces, places and spaces that are female safe spaces only for reasons of safety? Domestic violence shelters, female prisons?

Seriously, there are very good reasons why some spaces (historically, carved out and protected with considerable difficulty and often in the teeth of fierce and vehement conservative (often male) opposition) are designated female safe spaces only.
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Lots of questions need to be asked and the answers need to be more than calling someone who disagrees transphobic (certainly not meaning you).
 
Herdfan said:
I think it is the THIRD time. Better watch out. ;)




Lots of questions need to be asked and the answers need to be more than calling someone who disagrees transphobic (certainly not meaning you).
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Oh, dear.

That many?

What can I say?

Anyway, yes, yet again, I agree with you.

To refer to people who raise legitimate questions - and belittle, denigrate, and dismiss their concerns - by the cheap shot of hoping to silence them by calling them "transphobic" - is not good enough.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
Oh, dear.

That many?

What can I say?

Anyway, yes, yet again, I agree with you.

To refer to people who raise legitimate questions - and belittle, denigrate, and dismiss their concerns - by the cheap shot of hoping to silence them by calling them "transphobic" - is not good enough.
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To those that raise legitimate questions, surely they don’t mind answering a legitimate question.

Should transgender people be banned from all sports?
 
SuperMatt said:
To those that raise legitimate questions, surely they don’t mind answering a legitimate question.

Should transgender people be banned from all sports?
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Perhaps a separate category.

However, I would argue (strongly) that women's sport (and - as things are - it is already hard enough to persuade teenage girls to participate in sport, why place further obstacles in their way) - and not just elite sport - what defines women's sports, and who gets to participate in them, - and the (damned hard won) rights of women - should not be sacrificed on the altar of trans rights.

In other words, trans rights do not - and ought not - trump women's rights.

And @Herdfan has a point.

Why should kids anywhere (female kids) participate in something that they will never - and that is, never - have a hope of succeeding in, or winning, in such circumstances?

Moreover, something that could actually prove to be physically dangerous if they do participate when competing against those who are trans?

And worse: What about physical safety (in sports) for women: I have read stories - yes, a small number, thus far, but, but, but, - where girls/women who competed against trans women (in rugby, judo, for example - contact sports) suffered injuries far in excess of what they might have suffered when competing against girls or women who hadn't already had - or enjoyed - the considerable advantages and/or benefits (strength, reach, weight, reaction speed, power, size, oxygen capacity in heart and lungs) of having gone through puberty in a male body.
 
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Scepticalscribe said:
Perhaps a separate category.

However, I would argue ((strongly) that women's sport (and - as things are - it is already hard enough to persuade teenage girls to participate in sport, why place further obstacles in their way) - and not just elite sport - what defines women's sports, and who gets to participate in them, - and the (damned hard won) rights of women - should not be sacrificed on the altar of trans rights.

In other words, trans rights do not - and ought not - trump women's rights.

And @Herdfan has a point.

Why should kids anywhere (female kids) participate in something that they will never - and that is, never - have a hope of succeeding in, or winning, in such circumstances?

Moreover, something that could actually prove to be physically dangerous if they do participate when competing against those who are trans?

And worse: What about physical safety (in sports) for women: I have read stories - yes, a small number, thus far, but, but, but, - where girls/women who competed against trans women (in rugby, judo, for example - contact sports) suffered injuries far in excess of what they might have suffered when competing against girls or women who hadn't already had - or enjoyed - the considerable advantages and/or benefits (strength, reach, weight, reaction speed, power, size, oxygen capacity in heart and lungs) of having gone through puberty in a male body.
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Transgender rights vs women’s rights is not a zero-sum game. Shouldn’t we find a way to respect all humans? Allow everybody to participate?

How many examples of injuries are there involving transgender women in sports?

What is wrong with the existing rules that regulate transgender women in sports?

Surely there is a way for things to be fair without excluding all transgender people from all sports. Even the conservative governor of Utah felt that way, opposing an outright ban of transgender people from sports.

www.bbc.com

Transgender women in sport: Are they really a 'threat' to female sport?

Transgender women's participation in female sport has prompted criticism, but two trans athletes says there is a lot of misunderstanding.
www.bbc.com
 
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