Transgender, a Challenge for the Conservative Mindset

[Herdfan]

To those that raise legitimate questions, surely they don’t mind answering a legitimate question.

Should transgender people be banned from all sports?

Who is banned? A biological male can still play on the men's team even if they identify as a woman.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Transgender rights vs women’s rights is not a zero-sum game. Shouldn’t we find a way to respect all humans? Allow everybody to participate?

Respect all humans yes, but not at the expense of humans who are female, who are women.

Besides, women in sport is a relatively recent thing, with many who still oppose it - or seek to belittle it, or dismiss it - (including male sportsmen, male churchmen, some male sports commentators, among many others).

The fact that what will deny women success in sports (when competing against trans competitors) is precisely that which makes them women, while the success of their trans competitors will have arisen from the fact that the advantages and benefits they enjoyed as male, will still stand to them when competing against people who were born, and went through puberty, as female.

Thus, the defining feature of success, defeat, and - what will be perceived as failure - is born biological sex, the old, tired trope, of equating being female to failure, being second rate, and incapable of success.

I'm not sure that this is a lesson that we would like teenage sports to further consolidate. Or, perhaps it is.

Perhaps a separate category of sports.

However, trans rights shouldn't occur at the expense of women's rights.

How many examples of injuries are there involving transgender women in sports?

I don't know (this is not a subject that I am remotely expert in; normally, I do not post on stuff I know little about).

However, I have read accounts (in the Guardian - about rugby, and an online account about a mother writing about why her daughter - a medal winner at an advanced level - quit judo), of injuries, which concern me.

One such serious injury - delivered by someone with the strength and reach and power - and with the fists - of an adult male in such a setting - is one too many.

While the governor of Utah is not an authority I look to, writers such as J K Rowling, (yes, she is more than capable of looking after herself, but she was treated outrageously having penned a piece on the trans issue)- and Suzanne Moore, who quit the Guardian - do express legitimate concerns, which need to be addressed.

Surely there is a way for things to be fair without excluding all transgender people from all sports. Even the conservative governor of Utah felt that way, opposing an outright ban of transgender people from sports.

Transgender women in sport: Are they really a 'threat' to female sport?

Transgender women's participation in female sport has prompted criticism, but two trans athletes says there is a lot of misunderstanding.

www.bbc.com

I have never said "exclude trans athletes".

However, I do think that there is a case to be made for excluding them - post puberty - from women's sports.

Perhaps a separate category.

Otherwise, in time, we run the risk (to the joy of religious conservatives everywhere, who hate womne more than they hate anything else) of a world of men's, or male sport, and trans sport (which will, misleadingly, be passed off as "women's sports").

Yes, I exaggerate.

But - candidly- denying women's experiences (and suppressing women's rights) under the umbrella of supporting others, does not seem to me to be the way to go.

 

[Herdfan]

And worse: What about physical safety (in sports) for women: I have read stories - yes, a small number, thus far, but, but, but, - where girls/women who competed against trans women (in rugby, judo, for example - contact sports) suffered injuries far in excess of what they might have suffered when competing against girls or women who hadn't already had - or enjoyed - the considerable advantages and/or benefits (strength, reach, weight, reaction speed, power, size, oxygen capacity in heart and lungs) of having gone through puberty in a male body.

For years I "managed" a Co-Ed softball team. We played in an A/B League meaning we were pretty good. But I would never let one of the girls play 3rd base. Not even someone who played 3rd for their college team. Guys simply hit the ball too hard down the line.

I know I have posted this before, but when my daughter was swimming growing up, there was a club that hosted a meet where everyone swam together by seed. There were no genders or age brackets. You swam where your seed put you. The results were then scored by age and gender. But the swims in the pool were all mixed.

Up until about age 10, the girls did pretty good job of beating the boys. Girls at that age had more control of their bodies, they listened to instruction better and were just better swimmers. Once the boys hit puberty everything changed. The boys took off and left the girls in their wake. It simply isn't a level playing field.

 

[SuperMatt]

Excluding transgender women from activities, such as sports aligned with their gender identity, can be very detrimental to their mental health and well-being.

I am unaware of a similarly negative effect on others caused by including transgender women in women’s sports.

Protecting Transgender Youths' Right to Participate in Sports

The mental health benefits and the community support of sports are of critical importance for this at-risk population.

www.publichealth.columbia.edu

Additionally, a 2016 study showed that transgender students denied access to gender-appropriate bathrooms on their college campuses were 45 percent more likely to attempt suicide. This has direct implications for sports participation, demonstrating how policies of exclusion can exacerbate the mental health crisis already surrounding transgender youth.

Furthermore, the commonly cited belief that transgender girls and women will dominate sports is unfounded, as there is currently no scientific evidence that transgender people have an athletic advantage. Transgender athletes have been eligible for Olympic, professional, and NCAA competition for years, without any instance of trans dominance in sports.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Excluding transgender women from activities, such as sports aligned with their gender identity, can be very detrimental to their mental health and well-being.

And including transgender women in women's sport may be detrimental (physically, psychologically, emotionally, mental health and mental and physical and emotional well-being) to girls and women.

Women's rights, and women's lived experience - and the needs of women, in sport and elsewhere, - should not be sacrificed (yet again) to the well being of others, transwomen or anyone else.

 

[SuperMatt]

And including transgender women in women's sport may be detrimental (physically, psychologically, emotionally, mental health and mental and physical and emotional well-being) to girls and women.

Women's rights, and women's lived experience - and the needs of women, in sport and elsewhere, - should not be sacrificed (yet again) to the well being of others, transwomen or anyone else.

I would be interested in seeing some evidence of the detriments listed above affecting women who include transgender women in their gender-specific activities.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I would be interested in seeing some evidence of the detriments listed above affecting women who include transgender women in their gender-specific activities.

Well, sport isn't my area of expertise.

However, I do have (increasingly serious) concerns.

Nevertheless, I have read (subjective, yes) accounts where people (usually, but not exclusively, women, also some men) have written about experiences they - or, their children - experienced when competing against trans women in sports such as cycling, rugby (some severe injuries), and one recent horrific case re judo.

Moreover, when I see women whose writing I respect (Suzanne Moore, Hadley Freeman - both from the Guardian, who have written about this - and J K Rowling, who was torn apart when she published a thoughtful piece on the subject), I pay attention.

I am also concerned on the state of the current debate re access to what are specifically women's spaces, women only spaces, changing rooms, rest rooms, - and, also, prisons, and domestic violence refuges, and to the silencing and sacking of some female academics in the UK when they raised some concerns about this.

Again, some material - a few pieces - I read re gay women (who experienced extraordinary unpleasantness, the sort more usually associated with entitled men who become vicious and violent when rejected) when rejecting "romantic" overtures from trans women (who then attempted to argue that this was "transphobic"), I found unsettling.

None of this is conclusive: However, it is unsettling, and the tone of some trans activists - echoes of monstrous male entitlement, and classic mansplaining, but, in a female setting - does little to persuade me of the merit of their case.

In any case, I see no reason why women's rights should be sacrificed on the altar of trans women's rights. We fought too long and too hard for them.

(Interesting that none of this seems to occur with trans men).

And, it is also interesting that more men seem to be passionately concerned and exercised with the rights of trans women than they ever were with the rights of women who had the misfortune (biological, legal, cultural, sporting, for that matter, socio-economic, political) to be born women.

 

[Herdfan]

I would be interested in seeing some evidence of the detriments listed above affecting women who include transgender women in their gender-specific activities.

There are plenty of interviews out there with the female swimmers who got beat by Lia Thomas.

 

[SuperMatt]

There are plenty of interviews out there with the female swimmers who got beat by Lia Thomas.

What did they say?

 

[Herdfan]

What did they say?

I think you have a WaPo subscription.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-teammates/

Kentucky swimmer who tied with Lia Thomas says majority of women not okay with 'trajectory' of female sports

Kentucky swimmer Riley Gaines, who tied with transgender swimmer Lia Thomas for fifth place in the 200-yard freestyle NCAA swimming championships, says the “majority” of females are “not okay with the trajectory” that female sports are taking.

www.yahoo.com

 

[SuperMatt]

I think you have a WaPo subscription.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-teammates/

Kentucky swimmer who tied with Lia Thomas says majority of women not okay with 'trajectory' of female sports

Kentucky swimmer Riley Gaines, who tied with transgender swimmer Lia Thomas for fifth place in the 200-yard freestyle NCAA swimming championships, says the “majority” of females are “not okay with the trajectory” that female sports are taking.

www.yahoo.com

16 swimmers opposed it. But other swimmers supported her.

I notice that even those opposed to her competing were not calling for a ban on transgender women in women’s sports. They just wanted some changes to the rules.

So back to this question:

And including transgender women in women's sport may be detrimental (physically, psychologically, emotionally, mental health and mental and physical and emotional well-being) to girls and women.

Women's rights, and women's lived experience - and the needs of women, in sport and elsewhere, - should not be sacrificed (yet again) to the well being of others, transwomen or anyone else.

I do not see any of the above-listed detriments mentioned in the statement from those opposed to Ms. Thomas competing. I didn’t see anybody’s rights being sacrificed by including her.

Nothing is 100% fair, right? So, how about who is harmed more? The harm to transgender women by excluding them from all women’s sports is greater than the harm to women by having a small number of transgender women (about 1/2 of 1% of the population is transgender) compete with them.

If one wants to discuss how the NCAA or other sports governing bodies can change the rules to make sure things are as fair as possible, I think that’s reasonable.

But banning transgender women from all women’s sports is unreasonable, and unfairly discriminatory. Saying “they can play with the boys” or “use the boys bathroom” or “use the unisex bathroom” marginalizes and ostracizes them more. It really doesn’t hurt the 99%+ of people to accommodate the occasional transgender person that they encounter. To even think that such a small group of people pose a threat to the 99%+ is really silly.

Transgender people are not willingly enduring discrimination and hate in order to sneak a peek at somebody’s genitals in a bathroom or to be “first” in some sport.

 

[Herdfan]

When I was growing up, our town didn't have any girls sports other than cheerleaders for the midget league football teams. There was usually a girl or two on the boys little league team, but that was it.

Then when I was 14 they built 2 new ball fields at the park. The reason is remember this is after I aged out of LL, I had no place to play baseball. We didn't have Babe Ruth or Senior League. So my 13yo year, I had no place to play. Then at 14 they created a Senior League and a Girls Softball League. And the girls came out of the woodwork. It went from a couple on each boys team to several girls teams.

So the women who fought for the right to play benefited my daughter. She had soccer (although it was coed bunchball when she played), softball and volleyball all to choose from as she grew up. She finally decided swimming was what she wanted to do even though she did play volley ball in MS because she was taller than just about everyone else.

But those women who fought for girls to have their own sports, where they could compete against each other, is being dismantled.

 

[SuperMatt]

But those women who fought for girls to have their own sports, where they could compete against each other, is being dismantled.

Allowing a marginalized tiny sliver of the population to participate is not “dismantling” anything.

Instead of finding better ways to include transgender people, I see multiple people here falsely accusing them of harming women.

Data has been provided of the harms suffered by transgender people when they’re excluded. As I asked before, I’d like to see some data on non-transgender people being harmed by including transgender people in their activities. Perhaps it hasn’t been studied? I don’t know, but as it stands, the claims of supposed harm coming from transgender people are not backed up by anything.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I didn’t see anybody’s rights being sacrificed by including her.

Only women's rights.

Nothing is 100% fair, right?

I've yet to see this argument put forward by a male when they (that is, men) may well be affected negatively by the proposed policy.

In fact, I marvel at how easily this argument is advanced by men when the rights to be encroached upon are those of women.

Nothing is 100% fair, right? So, how about who is harmed more? The harm to transgender women by excluding them from all women’s sports is greater than the harm to women by having a small number of transgender women (about 1/2 of 1% of the population is transgender) compete with them.

That is not the argument that you think it is.

Anyway, my answer (that is, for now, at present, as matters are,) is that women stand to be harmed more.

Women's sports - which, remember, were originally devised as a separate category precisely because in most sports, adult males enjoy (and, as an ardent feminist, you can have no idea how much it galls me to have to even bash this out on the keyboard, to grit my teeth to write this), an advantage, a physical advantage, (in reach, size, height, speed, strength, lung and heart oxygen capacity), granted them by biology once they passed puberty, which means that, in most sporting events, men and women compete in separate categories.

This is precisely because men and women cannot compete in most sports on any sort of an equal footing, for men will always have an advantage.

In fact, in most sporting events (equestrian events are different, because the size, speed and strength in competition are those of the horses, whereas victory comes to riders, or jockeys, who bring skill, intelligence, experience, judgment, a good working relationship with the horse - on those criteria, women are easily equal; while extreme endurance events and long distance swimming are about the only sports where women - at an elite level - appear to enjoy some advantage) the physical advantage lies with men.

Thus, to allow women (who used to be men, with all of the advantages puberty grants to men in most forms of physical competition with women) to compete against women is not only grossly unfair to the girls and women who have practised, trained, dreamed, sacrificed weeks, if not months or years of their lives, - because they will never achieve success - they cannot, (and all of @Herdfan's points about destroying the dreams of girls matter here) hope to achieve success.

Furthermore, it is not just grossly unfair but, it is also grotesquely unfair to girls and women, because it tells them that - even in a category supposedly confined to women, to female competitors - that they cannot win. Cannot ever win, in these circumstances.

It further tells them - reinforces the message - that, even as women, (let alone competing against men in life, love, careers, education, professions) they are still lesser, still inadequate, still second-rate.

That, even as women, they are failures. Because, the only women that will win in such stacked competitions, competitions supposedly confined to women, are women who used to be men, women who enjoy the advantages of men.

It is hard enough to persuade women (and girls) to want to exercise, to want to play sports, especially competitive sports; I have no doubt whatsoever that this will make matters far harder still.

And that does not take into account the very real (if yet insufficiently explored) question of injuries to womne and girls at the hands of transwomen on the field of competition (I mentioned cases of rugby and judo, both of which have been written about: @Herdfan mentioned ball games).

But banning transgender women from all women’s sports is unreasonable, and unfairly discriminatory.

Not banning them is unfair to women and girls.

Transgender people are not willingly enduring discrimination and hate in order to sneak a peek at somebody’s genitals in a bathroom or to be “first” in some sport.

I'm afraid that this comes across as a classic case of the cheerful oblivion granted by what is sometimes referred to as "male privilege".

Try to see this from a woman's point of view, from the bitterly lived experience of many women.

While "sneaking a peek" is a shared giggle to many men, (yes, yawn, not all men), it is something that is experienced as - and viewed as - a threat, and an invasion, and a violation of privacy, consent, personal space, and autonomy, to many women.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Instead of finding better ways to include transgender people, I see multiple people here falsely accusing them of harming women.

Include them, yes.

And regulate (and enforce) how - and under what conditions - they may participate.

But - and this is key - not at the cost of harming women, or, and this is fundamental, undermining women's rights, or what constitutes women's sports.

And - even more key - preserving safe spaces (genuinely safe spaces) for women, womne only safe spaces (and here, I am referring to domestic violence refuges, women's prisons).

On the issue of access to women only safe spaces, this is one area where I would be implacably opposed to access for trans women, or anyone who is male in any size, or shape; to my mind, the rights, the safety, and the need for safety, of the 99% outweighs the sensitivities of the 1%.

Re data, I think that the area is too new to have gathered much data, although I think that this will change as more women become emboldened to voice their reservations.

Personally, I only became aware of some of these issues over the past two years, - and then, only because writers I respect (Suzanne Moore, Hadley Freeman, and J K Rowling) had written about it.

Sports, in general, are not my area of expertise, - thus, I rarely comment on them - although I read about them, and am interested in how they affect and influence culture and society, and, yes, I do follow soccer.

 

[mollyc]

I am the mother of a son and daughter, both whom competitively swim. They are neither at the elite level, although my son probably could get there if he liked swimming more. My daughter is 16, 5'4" and 120 pounds. She is not built for elite level swimming, even if she trained hard enough. Not all humans are genetically designed to be elite athletes. My son is 14, 6' tall and wears a size 11 mens shoe. He is not done growing (not sure how much he weighs currently, I'd say probably 160). He is not fully through puberty. That said, theoretically, if he were to come out as transgender and decided to transition today.....his major growth has already happened. He will never be a small person. He should not compete against my daughter; he is already faster than she is at two years younger with less training. Are there 16 yo female swimmers who are 6' tall? I'm sure they are. But they are genetically slighter and finer boned than my son.

Although my daughter is not as fast as many of her friends, she was fast enough to qualify for high school states in her school's league this year, so she isn't pokey. I hestitate to think how many of the female swimmers she competes with, who are elite level for their age, will find themselves up against swimmers like Lia Thomas, who is built like my son, and competed for years as a male. There will be girls who will drop out of competitions before they should because they know they will never win against people like Lia.

The comments section in the linked Washington Post article were surprising; as a known liberal biased newspaper, most of the comments were against trans male athletes in women's competitions. This comment caught my eye:

Lia obviously has not been taught one of life's most important principles: that we none of us get everything we want in life, and that sometimes we have to make a choice.

Male athletes who fervently desire to live their lives as women, but also fervently love their sport, must make a choice between the two. EITHER they pursue transition OR they pursue their sport, competing with and against males. They cannot have both.

The patent unfairness of Lia's male body competing against female swimmers is glaringly obvious to everyone—even to those who will feebly insist the Emperor is fully clothed.

I don't have an answer. I don't think there is harm in letting trans people compete at the everyday, club type of level. But elite?? We aren't there yet, and there are too many unknowns to throw everyone together just yet.

 

[Herdfan]

Try to see this from a woman's point of view, from the bitterly lived experience of many women.

I will never be able to do that. But what I do know is the hours that my daughter put in to excel at her sport. She was in the pool 10-12 hours a week plus running on non-pool days, all while keeping a 4+GPA. Once she got her license, she would go swim an hour BEFORE school (she was one of those weird morning people). I could not have been more proud of her simply based on her dedication, regardless of how she did in a race.

 

[Herdfan]

Although my daughter is not as fast as many of her friends, she was fast enough to qualify for high school states in her school's league this year, so she isn't pokey.

Sounds very similar to my daughter. She was more of a distance swimmer, for which HS doesn't really have any events (even the 500 is considered a sprint for elite athletes).

A good friend who is also a swim parent has two kids just like yours, the younger one is a great swimmer, but doesn't love it, the older one one loves, but will never be as good as her younger sister no matter what.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This debate (discussion) appears to be heating up:

Having prowled online, I came across a thoughtful, balanced, statement (published yesterday, - initially, I had spotted it on Twitter, - and I read the subsequent discussion; anyway, I also tracked it down (from the BBC) so that I can quote it, or cite it, here, from Katie Archibald, who, as an Olympic champion, is more than qualified to offer an opinion on the subject.

The statement is from the two time Olympic Champion, Katie Archibald, on the vexed issue of transgender athletes in cycling:

"20.04.2022.

Cycling has given me things that I value deeply. It's given me friendships, mentors, and rivals. It's given me an outlet for my desire to compete, an escape from the world when I need it, and a community I can always rely on.

Riding a bike keeps me healthy, riding a bike keeps me happy, and I believe everyone should have a chance to feel this way about cycling, and to feel welcomed by the cycling community that I hold dear.

With this in mind, it is my opinion that the international governing bodies of several sports have let down transgender athletes, in particular transgender women, with their inclusion policies.

These policies have put the athletes, their involvement in sport, and their personal lives under intense scrutiny when all the athletes have done is follow the rules and enter a category they were encouraged to enter.

I, too, feel let down by these policies.

I feel let down by the International Olympic Committee who tell me there should be no assumed advantage for an athlete with a gender identity different to their sex.

I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented.

Cycling's global governing body, by its president's own admission, knows this. But they chose to delay action until it became sadly personal for one rider. That wasn't fair.

I have the utmost respect for transgender people and equally respect their right to fair and safe inclusion in sport.

Global sports bodies, instead of doing the work to create a welcoming and inclusive environment in a category where fairness could be ensured, have put the personal lives of these athletes on to the pages of tabloid newspapers. It's not right and we can't continue this way.

I'd like the work to start now. I'd like national and global sports bodies to work with the wider scientific community when developing their policies.

I'd like the governing bodies of cycling and related endurance sports like triathlon and rowing to work together and pool their resources for this work.

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Re possible suggested solutions:

That the idea of three categories (as recommended by some on Twitter) be given consideration:

Males (post puberty):

Females:

And other (open to all).

One writer who also put forward the argument of devising further additional categories for competition, offered as an example how fairness decreed not only competitions segregated by gender (for post pubertal individuals), but also how fairness required that people who are disabled not be obliged to compete aginst the able bodied (hence the development of the concept and competition of the Paralympics).