Transgender, a Challenge for the Conservative Mindset

[SuperMatt]

I hestitate to think how many of the female swimmers she competes with, who are elite level for their age, will find themselves up against swimmers like Lia Thomas, who is built like my son, and competed for years as a male. There will be girls who will drop out of competitions before they should because they know they will never win against people like Lia.

Transgender people make up about 1/2 of 1% of the population. So if you hesitate and think, you might consider that it’s quite unlikely that the proposed situation would actually affect most people. If all women dropped out of sports because of fear they’d face a transgender competitor, then over 99% of athletes would quit and we wouldn’t have women’s athletics at all.

Also, most transgender athletes are NOT elite.

Sports organizations have rules in place to try and create a level playing field. The NCAA recently changed rules to allow different sports to handle things differently. Why is that important? In some sports, some of the factors accounted for by gender-change surgery have different impacts on athletic ability than in other sports.

We don’t have a full understanding of the athletic capabilities of these unique individuals yet. But I believe we should continue to work and find ways to include them in a way that is as fair as possible.

I do not believe banning all transgender women from women’s sports is an acceptable solution.

 

[SuperMatt]

This debate (discussion) appears to be heating up:

Having prowled online, I came across a thoughtful, balanced, statement (published yesterday, - initially, I had spotted it on Twitter, - and I read the subsequent discussion; anyway, I also tracked it down (from the BBC) so that I can quote it, or cite it, here, from Katie Archibald, who, as an Olympic champion, is more than qualified to offer an opinion on the subject.

The statement is from the two time Olympic Champion, Katie Archibald, on the vexed issue of transgender athletes in cycling:

"20.04.2022.

Cycling has given me things that I value deeply. It's given me friendships, mentors, and rivals. It's given me an outlet for my desire to compete, an escape from the world when I need it, and a community I can always rely on.

Riding a bike keeps me healthy, riding a bike keeps me happy, and I believe everyone should have a chance to feel this way about cycling, and to feel welcomed by the cycling community that I hold dear.

With this in mind, it is my opinion that the international governing bodies of several sports have let down transgender athletes, in particular transgender women, with their inclusion policies.

These policies have put the athletes, their involvement in sport, and their personal lives under intense scrutiny when all the athletes have done is follow the rules and enter a category they were encouraged to enter.

I, too, feel let down by these policies.

I feel let down by the International Olympic Committee who tell me there should be no assumed advantage for an athlete with a gender identity different to their sex.

I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented.

Cycling's global governing body, by its president's own admission, knows this. But they chose to delay action until it became sadly personal for one rider. That wasn't fair.

I have the utmost respect for transgender people and equally respect their right to fair and safe inclusion in sport.

Global sports bodies, instead of doing the work to create a welcoming and inclusive environment in a category where fairness could be ensured, have put the personal lives of these athletes on to the pages of tabloid newspapers. It's not right and we can't continue this way.

I'd like the work to start now. I'd like national and global sports bodies to work with the wider scientific community when developing their policies.

I'd like the governing bodies of cycling and related endurance sports like triathlon and rowing to work together and pool their resources for this work.

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I agree with the conclusion. Let’s work hard to find a fair way to include transgender people in sports if they want to participate. I also appreciate that this author takes the sport’s governing body to task for failing to properly handle the situation. They do NOT attack transgender people, since they were simply following the rules set forth by the sport’s governors.

 

[Herdfan]

Transgender people make up about 1/2 of 1% of the population. So if you hesitate and think, you might consider that it’s quite unlikely that the proposed situation would actually affect most people. If all women dropped out of sports because of fear they’d face a transgender competitor, then over 99% of athletes would quit and we wouldn’t have women’s athletics at all.

But that one athlete, Thomas, affected the places of hundreds of girls. Some didn't qualify for the NCAA's because the slot was already taken. Some didn't make finals because the slot was taken. That one person affects a lot of other people.

Sports organizations have rules in place to try and create a level playing field. The NCAA recently changed rules to allow different sports to handle things differently. Why is that important? In some sports, some of the factors accounted for by gender-change surgery have different impacts on athletic ability than in other sports.

Which they promptly decided to ignore when they didn't like what USA Swimming came up with.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Transgender people make up about 1/2 of 1% of the population. So if you hesitate and think, you might consider that it’s quite unlikely that the proposed situation would actually affect most people. If all women dropped out of sports because of fear they’d face a transgender competitor, then over 99% of athletes would quit and we wouldn’t have women’s athletics at all.

Also, most transgender athletes are NOT elite.

Sports organizations have rules in place to try and create a level playing field. The NCAA recently changed rules to allow different sports to handle things differently. Why is that important? In some sports, some of the factors accounted for by gender-change surgery have different impacts on athletic ability than in other sports.

We don’t have a full understanding of the athletic capabilities of these unique individuals yet. But I believe we should continue to work and find ways to include them in a way that is as fair as possible.

I do not believe banning all transgender women from women’s sports is an acceptable solution.

Transgender athletes may well comprise (for now) a half of one percent of all of the female population.

However, I am willing to wager that they will comprise a far greater percentage of those who compete successfully (i.e. secure victory) when competing in female segregated sports than their overall proportion of the (female) population.

And no: This does not just apply to elite sports,, although that is where this issue has become most visible.

Candidly, I will confess that I am far more concerned about ordinary sports, and the impact this might have on girls wishing to participate (and compete) given that they already face considerable obstacles to engage with and play and participate in, sports.

Moreover, I suspect that male concern about right of access to, and participation in, (by trans athletes) to sporting competition would be far greater, (not to mention a lot louder), if the trans people who became male were to secure regular victories (and simply turn up to competitions bearing such clear basic biological advantages in terms of reach, strength, size, power, speed, lung and heart oxygen capacity) against mere boys whose own biology meant that they lacked such preternatural (but advantageous) qualities.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I agree with the conclusion. Let’s work hard to find a fair way to include transgender people in sports if they want to participate. I also appreciate that this author takes the sport’s governing body to task for failing to properly handle the situation. They do NOT attack transgender people, since they were simply following the rules set forth by the sport’s governors.

But Katie Archibald also raises the fundamental issue of fairness.

Fairness to girls and women.

 

[SuperMatt]

But Katie Archibald also raises the fundamental issue of fairness.

Fairness to girls and women.

Transgender women are women too, right?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Transgender women are women too, right?

All women are equal, but some women (not least, those born male with the advantages conferred by having gone through puberty in a male body) are more equal - a lot more equal - than others.

 

[SuperMatt]

However, I am willing to wager that they will comprise a far greater percentage of those who compete successfully (i.e. secure victory) when competing in female segregated sports than their overall proportion of the (female) population.

I’d suggest not wagering much. After all, transgender people have been allowed in the olympics since 2004.

Guess how many actually got into the olympics since then.

Then guess how many won a medal.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My concerns - in sport - lie with ensuring fairness for female athletes, (and that fairness not be sacrificed on the altar of trans rights) and elsewhere, ensuring that the rights of women are not undermined, or eroded, and the safety of women in single sex spaces remains guaranteed.

 

[Cmaier]

My concerns - in sport - lie with ensuring fairness for female athletes, (and that fairness not be sacrificed on the altar of trans rights) and elsewhere, ensuring that the rights of women are not undermined, or eroded, and the safety of women in single sex spaces remains guaranteed.

”the altar of trans rights” is a very clever turn of phrase designed to minimize the pursuit of those rights. Well done.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

”the altar of trans rights” is a very clever turn of phrase designed to minimize the pursuit of those rights. Well done.

Not sure what you mean by "well done" unless you have intended to use it as one of those faux clever dismissive expressions.

For all of the vocally expressed concern about trans rights for (female) trans athletes, I have yet to observe much by way of concern, or worry, about ensuring fairness for women from some who have posted here.

 

[SuperMatt]

Threatening to kill workers at Merriam-Webster because you don’t like their definition of “female” is apparently the logical conclusion of anti-trans sentiment constantly broadcast by right-wing media.

Merriam-Webster Targeted Online With Threats of Anti-LGBTQ Violence, U.S. Attorney Says

Prosecutors say a California man suggested company headquarters be "shot up and bombed"

www.yahoo.com

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Re possible suggested solutions:

That the idea of three categories (as recommended by some on Twitter) be given consideration:

Males (post puberty):

Females:

And other (open to all).

One writer who also put forward the argument of devising further additional categories for competition, offered as an example how fairness decreed not only competitions segregated by gender (for post pubertal individuals), but also how fairness required that people who are disabled not be obliged to compete aginst the able bodied (hence the development of the concept and competition of the Paralympics).

I would definitely support a neutral category in sports for people identifying as a different gender to their biological gender. I think that would be a lot fairer, especially in the women’s categories where women who were previously male, gain a distinct physical advantage despite their appearance.

I think the problem that would exist is the lack of individuals in some of the categories or the additional cost at events like the Olympic Games.

 

[SuperMatt]

I think that would be a lot fairer, especially in the women’s categories where women who were previously male, gain a distinct physical advantage despite their appearance.

The evidence has shown that it is quite rare for transgender athletes to gain a distinct physical advantage. It’s not the problem that many claim it is.

I posed 2 questions earlier that, if answered, might illustrate that point quite clearly.

Transgender people have been allowed in the olympics since 2004.

Guess how many actually got into the olympics since then.

Then guess how many won a medal.

Banning transgender athletes or creating a special category is a solution in search of a problem.

 

[mollyc]

My son, the 14yo 6' swimmer, brough Lia Thomas up today (out of the blue, but I think it was relevant to something he'd seen online) said that he does not think she should compete against girls.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Banning transgender athletes or creating a special category is a solution in search of a problem.

No, it is a solution to a problem (for women) that - belatedly - is becoming both more pronounced and more recognised.

From Twitter today (under the handle @ForWomenScot):

"Today, the ebike category at the TweedLove Enjoyro mountain bike race in Peebles was won by Maxine Yates, a trans athlete, who was allowed to enter the women's category under British cycling rules. This isn't just affecting elite women."

 

[mollyc]

The evidence has shown that it is quite rare for transgender athletes to gain a distinct physical advantage. It’s not the problem that many claim it is.

I posed 2 questions earlier that, if answered, might illustrate that point quite clearly.



Banning transgender athletes or creating a special category is a solution in search of a problem.

If biological women are being displaced from sports and awards by trans women, there is a problem.

Being open minded is a two way street. No one here has said trans athletes should not compete AT ALL. But there is an issue that needs to be addressed, and just saying "it's unfair to trans athletes" is sticking your head in the sand just as much as saying "trans athletes should be banned completely." Let's find a safe space where people on equal footing can compete.

 

[SuperMatt]

I’ve yet to see answers to the questions I posed about how many transgender people have gone to the Olympics or medaled in them since they were first allowed in 2004.

I also feel there is a lack of understanding how strongly hormones affect athletic ability.

Transgender women will supplant all other women from athletics? That idea is truly absurd and ignores reality.

If biological women are being displaced from sports and awards by trans women, there is a problem

That “if” isn’t happening. Participation in athletics by women is growing, not shrinking. The 2020 Olympics were the most gender balanced in history; 49% of participants were female.

The reality vs the fear is not even in the same ballpark.

 

[mollyc]

I’ve yet to see answers to the questions I posed about how many transgender people have gone to the Olympics or medaled in them since they were first allowed in 2004.

I also feel there is a lack of understanding how strongly hormones affect athletic ability.

Transgender women will supplant all other women from athletics? That idea is truly absurd and ignores reality.


That “if” isn’t happening. Participation in athletics by women is growing, not shrinking. The 2020 Olympics were the most gender balanced in history; 49% of participants were female.

The reality vs the fear is not even in the same ballpark.

i feel you lack understanding the effect of aging to 18-24 then transitioning on body frame and mass.

no one is saying transgender athletes will replace all females athletes. but if one trans athlete wins, there is a trickle down throughout the sport.

so because overall sports participation is dwindling by biological females we should allow trans females?

it’s okay to you for lia thomas to win over a biological female? or the biker in @Scepticalscribe’s post?

we are trying to consider this concept objectively and with reason. you are not. your mind is closed. without reason.

 

[SuperMatt]

i feel you lack understanding the effect of aging to 18-24 then transitioning on body frame and mass.

no one is saying transgender athletes will replace all females athletes. but if one trans athlete wins, there is a trickle down throughout the sport.

so because overall sports participation is dwindling by biological females we should allow trans females?

it’s okay to you for lia thomas to win over a biological female? or the biker in @Scepticalscribe’s post?

we are trying to consider this concept objectively and with reason. you are not. your mind is closed. without reason.

If one thinks I am truly closed-minded and without reason, then it is probably best to simply ignore me, not to accuse me of it publicly. Such a statement could be considered an insult, and I don’t see the benefit of insulting each other in this case.

I have highlighted the facts to put things into perspective. There are only 2 instances of transgender women coming in first in major competitions that I am aware of. The response to these 2 instances is quite disproportional, in my opinion.

And yes. I do believe it is ok for transgender women to compete… and if they compete, it is therefore ok for them to win. Not only are they very rare, their overall record so far is well below the record of other women, so it is nothing to worry about. Allow the sports governing boards to make sure things are as fair as possible.

I’ve yet to see any evidence that there is a negative effect on participation of women in athletics due to the inclusion of transgender women. I can see that some people are worried about that for the future. However, I believe such worries are unfounded.