Tucker Carlson’s Depiction of 1/6

[mac_in_tosh]

This is where we disagree. That only works if others in Government go along with it. I think the FBI would have rousted him out of the WH forthwith and kept him away until Biden took the Oath.

So the way that a Trump coup would be prevented is for the FBI basically to stage their own coup? What you're suggesting is way outside the authority of the FBI.

 

[Yoused]

I was unsure why it mattered to them as to whether it was natural or a lab leak, but this story provides a couple of possible reasons. First is because Trump said it. Not a valid reason when we are faced with a global pandemic, but whatever.

It is exactly the point. You may or may not have noticed that Joe te President is not up there on the podium making authoritative pronouncements every other about much of anything. He is not the smartest President ever, unlike Individual-ONE.

If the press seemed to be setting out on a mission to show that everything Individual-ONE said was wrong, it was because not only was Individual-ONE wrong about everything, but dangerously wrong, and he was stoking up the CTists and common clay of the new land. Perhaps they could have just suppressed the urge to amplify (apparently in an effort to highlight how idiotic it all was) all his bullshit, and that probably would have helped some, but then we had Dorsey there to confound that strategy.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

As somebody who appreciates Herdfan being on this forum and sharing views that almost he alone needs to defend I think there is a noticeable amount of being disingenuous from both sides of the debate. I agree that, at least for now, there are still enough guardrails in place that would prevent Trump from retaking the presidency no matter what happened in the capitol building that day. In fact I think there is a good argument to be made that if things were even more violently successful for his supporters that he would be in even more deep shit than he already is, but perversely the fact that it wasn't bloodier and more successful is probably the main reason we're still debating it.

The events of that day were largely driven by Trump's ego and more nefarious actors behind the scenes and the majority were probably useful idiots guided by those forces, but history is full of violent and traumatic events where the majority involved were useful idiots, meat for the grinder to the benefit of those at the top. That doesn't excuse the actions of the useful idiots. If you don't punish them there's a good chance they'll be a useful idiot repeat offender. Imagine if Trump retakes power and pardons them all as celebrated martyrs to the cause. How many do you think will go "Thanks, man, but I'm no longer interested in this fight"? How many do you think will get reenergized by this new freedom and fame? Given what passes for value in our current society I think a lot would go with the latter. Flash forward to Senator Kyle Rittenhouse who had no interest in holding public office until he shot and killed some protestors.

 

[Roller]

As somebody who appreciates Herdfan being on this forum and sharing views that almost he alone needs to defend I think there is a noticeable amount of being disingenuous from both sides of the debate. I agree that, at least for now, there are still enough guardrails in place that would prevent Trump from retaking the presidency no matter what happened in the capitol building that day. In fact I think there is a good argument to be made that if things were even more violently successful for his supporters that he would be in even more deep shit than he already is, but perversely the fact that it wasn't bloodier and more successful is probably the main reason we're still debating it.

The events of that day were largely driven by Trump's ego and more nefarious actors behind the scenes and the majority were probably useful idiots guided by those forces, but history is full of violent and traumatic events where the majority involved were useful idiots, meat for the grinder to the benefit of those at the top. That doesn't excuse the actions of the useful idiots. If you don't punish them there's a good chance they'll be a useful idiot repeat offender. Imagine if Trump retakes power and pardons them all as celebrated martyrs to the cause. How many do you think will go "Thanks, man, but I'm no longer interested in this fight"? How many do you think will get reenergized by this new freedom and fame? Given what passes for value in our current society I think a lot would go with the latter. Flash forward to Senator Kyle Rittenhouse who had no interest in holding public office until he shot and killed some protestors.

I don’t think people here are being disingenuous. There’s not much disagreement about what happened on January 6, including the apparent revelation that there were many instances of nonviolent, frankly boring activities. What’s being debated is the significance of these events.

I tend to agree that things would have had to go considerably further for Trump to have remained in office, but thankfully we’ll never know.

Still, I contend that irreparable damage was done that day, if only by emboldening others to emulate the actions of the insurrectionists when elections or the laws enacted by politicians at all levels of government don’t go their way. As I’ve said elsewhere, the veneer of civilized society is thin.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

the veneer of civilized society is thin.

I think this is vitally important. At minimum the government should make people feel secure, but Trump and the Republican party has gone out of their way to scream "You're all fucked and everybody is out to get you!!" which is a huge leap from life isn't fair to storming the capitol and other violent acts are a good idea.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I don’t think it’s that likely that the country was at risk of collapsing on 1/6. Indeed there are safeguards in place and I don’t think most republicans would have gone along with a coup, even if today they today minimize the events of 1/6. And considering all the messages from republicans to top Trump officials, top officials unwillingness to participate in Trump’s delusions and concurrent resignations, I don’t think the risk was as real as some believed Overwhelmingly most if not all republicans denounced the the actions of 1/6. What I think is possible that that this could have turned into something much even destructive and deadly than what already occurred.

I’m not sure of the parallels to COVID controversy considering the origins had really no evidence in either direction when the decision was made to solely accept the natural origin theory. With 1/6 it was clear to see that there was violence which we all see the images of. I don’t think it is a surprise that not everyone who may have entered the capital was necessarily violent or destructive. That doesn’t change the fact there was indeed violence and destruction.

 

[Herdfan]

As somebody who appreciates Herdfan being on this forum and sharing views that almost he alone needs to defend

Thank you!

Imagine if Trump retakes power and pardons them all

He may not need to. Several of their attorney's are preparing to file appeals based on what is on the released videos. Maybe the Capitol Police were leading them around as a means to keep the peace, but the government still was required to turn over exculpatory video to the defendants. That is one of the main tenants of our legal system.

 

[Citysnaps]

Overwhelmingly most if not all republicans denounced the the actions of 1/6. What I think is possible that that this could have turned into something much even destructive and deadly than what already occurred.

It appears for many it has taken two years to get onboard with that, along with the fact the election was indeed not stolen or rigged; likely for image rehabilitation purposes. Prior to that, for some it was explained away as mere "legitimate political discourse."

Personally (and don't think I'm alone on this), I was shocked that Jan6th could have even happened at all. Realizing that, I'm not closing my mind to the notion that something far worse could have occurred, and could very well happen in the future.

 

[Yoused]

I'm not closing my mind to the notion that something far worse could have occurred, and could very well happen in the future.

Yes, it seems rather likely. The non-White-Wing should already actively be preparing to counter the same sort of thing if it should look like there might be a re-run.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Just think: a big part of this whole saga for Fox is because they actually reported the news when they projected Arizona was won by Biden.

They had to grovel, text and email each other, get people who make much less than they do fired because they dare tell the truth on their network, they call people crazy and then invite them on the show and treat them as serious as a heart attack.

This “network” is well below the most biased of opinion and analyst hosts on other networks. Fox News is far more biased and propaganda-driven than a network like MSNBC. At least the other networks don’t live in a reality crafted by a lunatic cult leader. Other networks may seem biased, and we can have that debate, but the truth is, if you are a viewer of Fox News who treat them as actual news, you are being lied to and more likely to be misinformed. You will think the most unbiased of news programs or journalists are “for the left” because you don’t live in reality, and the abhorrent behavior of many right-wing individuals and leaders is disgusting, and the reporting on those things will always be “anti-conservative” because you can’t be rational and also think the media should have reported on January 6 as a tourist visit and peaceful protest that got out of hand, not too long after you also thought everyone else should have been covering BLM riots as “entire cities burning to the ground”.

Neither of those scenarios are factual, correct or even believable to anyone but the most brainwashed or willfully ignorant person possible. And Carlson, Hannity, Ingraham and many others are neither of those things. Yet they know their audience absolutely are.

The right is at war with the truth and facts, and Fox News is a big reason why. A “news” network having an internal crisis because they correctly covered an election result - during coverage of a presidential election - tells you everything you need to know. I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve never panicked and wondered what to do after realizing I did my job well. When Fox told the truth, their viewers, and Trump himself and his network lackeys, let them know they crossed a line.

 

[Hrafn]

At the same time we have spent the last 3 years being lied to by the Dems and the media over the origins of COVID. I was pretty much called the dumbest MF'er walking the planet when I would post a new article about it being lab created. I was just spewing RW MAGA talking points. Hmmmm......... How is that holding up?

And that was an issue where I haven't been able to connect the dots as to why the Dems and media cared one way or the other.

But this issue is one they had a reason to want things to be a certain way, to push a certain narrative. Sorry, I have lost faith in most of the media and that includes Fox. So why should we trust them over this? Sure, watch the video? Like I posted about Hawley, they had Congress people making fun of him for running, and did so in a Congressional Hearing and showed the video. But then you watch the entire tape that narrative just falls apart. It's Trump and feeding the fish all over again. That type of crap should piss everyone off.

I am not saying 1/6 wasn't bad. It was. Never should have happened, but I do not think we were in any danger of losing the country over it.

I can't come up with any reason why this is the hill Repubs want to die on. What's so critical if it was created in a lab vs natural that you all want to make it the ISSUE OF THE SEASON? Specifically: why does it matter the origin of COVID?

 

[AG_PhamD]

I can't come up with any reason why this is the hill Repubs want to die on. What's so critical if it was created in a lab vs natural that you all want to make it the ISSUE OF THE SEASON? Specifically: why does it matter the origin of COVID?

Separate from all of the 1/6 discussion, which I fail to see the relationship,it is very important to know if this came from a lab vs nature.

Firstly, it would highlight that China lied even more than they already have AND that our own government actively worked to deceive us and may have been tangentially involved in creating the worst pandemic the world has seen in generations. If it was a lab leak, it uncovers an even more toxic media than we already know exists, not focused on truth but instead a particular narrative. And if it’s a lab leak, there’s potential implications of liability given the tremendous cost in lives and economically.

A lab leak also calls into question “gain of function research” or whatever you wish to call it and whether or not it should be performed, or how it should be performed, how we oversee such research, and/of how we should be funding it beyond our boarders.

And if it was of natural origin, it calls into question what greater safety measures we can take to protect from such viruses from spilling over from the animal population into the human population. And would be vital to understanding how these viruses emerge in the wild and to determine what future risks exist.

No scientist could ever say the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not very important or is irrelevant. To minimize the importance of the origin is akin to 9/11 occurring (except hundreds of thousands of deaths) and saying “but does it really matter who did it, why, and how?”

And this should not be seen as a left vs right thing. This is a science thing and politics should have nothing to do with it. Many on the right seem to believe the DoE and FBI’s conclusions as conclusive evidence and vindication, which it is not. But it cannot be denied it was largely the left, though not everyone, who refused to allow room for anything but a natural origin. And the response now among some on the left that that the origin is actually not relevant is ridiculous and entirely an attempt to cover up that they were wrong not to give the lab leak any credibility whatsoever. Because if we find the pandemic was of natural origin, I am quite sure these same people will all of a sudden say the origin is vitally important again.

Again, whatever political side you fall on or not fall on is not remotely relevant to the undeniable importance of figuring out where this virus came from. And with all due respect, to suggest it’s unimportant is either ignorance or falling victim to the partisanship our idiotic media and political class promote- which is exactly what landed us here in the first place.

 

[Hrafn]

Separate from all of the 1/6 discussion, which I fail to see the relationship,it is very important to know if this came from a lab vs nature.

Firstly, it would highlight that China lied even more than they already have AND that our own government actively worked to deceive us and may have been tangentially involved in creating the worst pandemic the world has seen in generations. If it was a lab leak, it uncovers an even more toxic media than we already know exists, not focused on truth but instead a particular narrative. And if it’s a lab leak, there’s potential implications of liability given the tremendous cost in lives and economically.

A lab leak also calls into question “gain of function research” or whatever you wish to call it and whether or not it should be performed, or how it should be performed, how we oversee such research, and/of how we should be funding it beyond our boarders.

And if it was of natural origin, it calls into question what greater safety measures we can take to protect from such viruses from spilling over from the animal population into the human population. And would be vital to understanding how these viruses emerge in the wild and to determine what future risks exist.

No scientist could ever say the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not very important or is irrelevant. To minimize the importance of the origin is akin to 9/11 occurring (except hundreds of thousands of deaths) and saying “but does it really matter who did it, why, and how?”

And this should not be seen as a left vs right thing. This is a science thing and politics should have nothing to do with it. Many on the right seem to believe the DoE and FBI’s conclusions as conclusive evidence and vindication, which it is not. But it cannot be denied it was largely the left, though not everyone, who refused to allow room for anything but a natural origin. And the response now among some on the left that that the origin is actually not relevant is ridiculous and entirely an attempt to cover up that they were wrong not to give the lab leak any credibility whatsoever. Because if we find the pandemic was of natural origin, I am quite sure these same people will all of a sudden say the origin is vitally important again.

Again, whatever political side you fall on or not fall on is not remotely relevant to the undeniable importance of figuring out where this virus came from. And with all due respect, to suggest it’s unimportant is either ignorance or falling victim to the partisanship our idiotic media and political class promote- which is exactly what landed us here in the first place.

I have no doubt where you fall on any Issue. That wasn’t my question.

 

[Citysnaps]

But it cannot be denied it was largely the left, though not everyone, who refused to allow room for anything but a natural origin.

I have not seen any evidence of that. Again, everything I've read or listened to from multiple credible news sources (not Fox, Breitbart, OAN, etc ) points to the source as being inconclusive. That's not to say the US government doesn't have more information - I'm sure they do and it's held at the classified level for various reasons.

In my mind it's not simply a matter of lab leak vs natural origin. There are shades of gray to consider. For example, if it came from a lab, what was the nature and purpose of the research and was the release intentional or accidental (via carelessness). If natural, were there opportunities for containment, assuming there was enough knowledge at the time to take suitable measures. We just don't know at this point. I'm not one to latch onto conspiracy editorials.

I'm still in the camp the source (and potential intents) is inconclusive, though recognizing the US government likely knows a lot more. I can see it going either way.

 

[Yoused]

it is very important to know if this came from a lab vs nature.

I kind of fail to see the truth in that. If there exists the real possibility that it might have been a lab leak, whether or not it was has little lraimgou the fact that we ought to do everything we possibly can to secure the labs that may be vulnerable, because those labs should be secure anyway. Blaming whosoever is of minimal value.

And if it was a deliberate act, it is highly unlikely that we will ever be certain of that. It should be a matter for the research community to address directly, not a subject of endless public debate and sniping.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I have not seen any evidence of that. Again, everything I've read or listened to from multiple credible news sources (not Fox, Breitbart, OAN, etc ) points to the source as being inconclusive. That's not to say the US government doesn't have more information - I'm sure they do and it's held at the classified level for various reasons.

In my mind it's not simply a matter of lab leak vs natural origin. There are shades of gray to consider. For example, if it came from a lab, what was the nature and purpose of the research and was the release intentional or accidental (via carelessness). If natural, were there opportunities for containment, assuming there was enough knowledge at the time to take suitable measures. We just don't know at this point. I'm not one to latch onto conspiracy editorials.

I'm still in the camp the source (and potential intents) is inconclusive, though recognizing the US government likely knows a lot more. I can see it going either way.

I distinctly remember the MSM calling lab leak being called a “conspiracy theory” (which technically it is, but in vernacular has a different implication) and being “debunked”. It wasn’t until relatively recently that the tide has started to change. You have reports that Jeff Zucker directed CNN not to investigate lab leak as an origin. Even Fauci’s tune has changed significantly going from statements like “there is no evidence for a lab leak” to “we need to keep an open mind”. I don’t think “no evidence” was an entirely true statement at the time either and neglected to mention there is little evidence to the opposing argument.

John Stewart claimed that the response to his joke on the Colbert show that “science” likely caused the pandemic was met with overwhelming accusations of racism and being affiliated with the alt-right. That is the world we were living in.

And even today, I’ve seen journalists on CNN and Fauci skirt around the issue by essentially saying that they were actually discounting the conspiracy theory that China engineered the virus as a bioweapon and intentionally release it- which is not and was not a popularly held theory at all. Certainly not in the scientific community.

But in my opinion worst of all were the qualified scientists who were afraid to talk about/publish thoughts on the lab leak due to the risk of being ostracized. On top of that, while this does sound “conspiratorial”, there is a legitimate conflict of interest involving NIH funding involving those supporting and refuting the lab leak hypothesis, especially when many of the top experts in the world receive and depend on NIH funding. Funding is everything in academic research and by extension one’s career, reputation, etc.

I think there are many shades of grey- including natural evolution from wild variant of COVID in a lab or a virus of natural origin that was collected and escaped from a lab without modification. And even if it was a lab leak, it’s not necessarily true our government was involved or involved in a cover up.

I have no doubt where you fall on any Issue. That wasn’t my question.

As I understand you specifically asked why the origin mattered and I think I answered that question.

I’m make no claims to knowing the origin nor does the origin or it’s implications make any difference in my life. I am merely stating the importance of knowing how this pandemic started. My concerns are entirely about how the political elite and mainstream media create and feed narratives in a partisan zeitgeist that trickles down to corrupting science and medicine. And the origin is just one example among many during the pandemic. Hydroxychloroquine anyone? Still waiting for Mike Lindell to provide his evidence on that one.

I can make the case for natural origin as well if you’d like. If I had a choice I would hope the virus is of natural origin to prevent the serious implications for science that lab leak would incur.

If we allow political partisanship to interfere with the most objective areas of science and medicine, that’s effectively the end of effective science and medicine. And public health too for that matter. This is already an issue to some extent in other contexts of medicine.

 

[Citysnaps]

I distinctly remember the MSM calling lab leak being called a “conspiracy theory” (which technically it is, but in vernacular has a different implication) and being “debunked”. It wasn’t until relatively recently that the tide has started to change. You have reports that Jeff Zucker directed CNN not to investigate lab leak as an origin. Even Fauci’s tune has changed significantly going from statements like “there is no evidence for a lab leak” to “we need to keep an open mind”. I don’t think “no evidence” was an entirely true statement at the time either and neglected to mention there is little evidence to the opposing argument.

Were the above reports editorial or news backed with facts? The times I've seen Fauci comment, including today, it has always been couched with possibilities/conjecture along not having enough information, and keeping an open mind. Which for me seems appropriate.

Regarding evidence and how it is used... Since the Chinese apparently are not cooperating in providing information about the source, and the US government hasn't weighed in (though I'm very confident they know exactly how the virus was created/released/propagated), I don't understand where this "evidence" could come from or be relied upon. Thus no evidence seems appropriate. Unless people want to make stuff up and call it evidence.

I'm not sure what MSM is, but are they in a position to have in their possession solid information/facts that can be relied upon and traced back to specific individuals in order to have crafted an accurate determination - assuming they have an appropriate (degreed) science/medical background to make such an accurate assessment? If so, where did this cache of reliable information/facts come from?

 

[Hrafn]

I distinctly remember the MSM calling lab leak being called a “conspiracy theory” (which technically it is, but in vernacular has a different implication) and being “debunked”. It wasn’t until relatively recently that the tide has started to change. You have reports that Jeff Zucker directed CNN not to investigate lab leak as an origin. Even Fauci’s tune has changed significantly going from statements like “there is no evidence for a lab leak” to “we need to keep an open mind”. I don’t think “no evidence” was an entirely true statement at the time either and neglected to mention there is little evidence to the opposing argument.

John Stewart claimed that the response to his joke on the Colbert show that “science” likely caused the pandemic was met with overwhelming accusations of racism and being affiliated with the alt-right. That is the world we were living in.

And even today, I’ve seen journalists on CNN and Fauci skirt around the issue by essentially saying that they were actually discounting the conspiracy theory that China engineered the virus as a bioweapon and intentionally release it- which is not and was not a popularly held theory at all. Certainly not in the scientific community.

But in my opinion worst of all were the qualified scientists who were afraid to talk about/publish thoughts on the lab leak due to the risk of being ostracized. On top of that, while this does sound “conspiratorial”, there is a legitimate conflict of interest involving NIH funding involving those supporting and refuting the lab leak hypothesis, especially when many of the top experts in the world receive and depend on NIH funding. Funding is everything in academic research and by extension one’s career, reputation, etc.

I think there are many shades of grey- including natural evolution from wild variant of COVID in a lab or a virus of natural origin that was collected and escaped from a lab without modification. And even if it was a lab leak, it’s not necessarily true our government was involved or involved in a cover up.


As I understand you specifically asked why the origin mattered and I think I answered that question.

I’m make no claims to knowing the origin nor does the origin or it’s implications make any difference in my life. I am merely stating the importance of knowing how this pandemic started. My concerns are entirely about how the political elite and mainstream media create and feed narratives in a partisan zeitgeist that trickles down to corrupting science and medicine. And the origin is just one example among many during the pandemic. Hydroxychloroquine anyone? Still waiting for Mike Lindell to provide his evidence on that one.

I can make the case for natural origin as well if you’d like. If I had a choice I would hope the virus is of natural origin to prevent the serious implications for science that lab leak would incur.

If we allow political partisanship to interfere with the most objective areas of science and medicine, that’s effectively the end of effective science and medicine. And public health too for that matter. This is already an issue to some extent in other contexts of medicine.

I’ve found that right wing causes of the day are either honest at their face “we want to push our prayers in schools” or dishonest “we need to stop all the (actually almost nil) voter fraud”. What I’m actually curious about is the ulterior motive on this one.

I don’t expect to really get an answer to that.

2nd edit: I should have just done a search: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...illover-how-origins-covid-us-political-debate.

 

[Herdfan]

What I’m actually curious about is the ulterior motive on this one.

I think initially it became a left/right issue because Trump said lab leak. So the media reflexively went the opposite way and didn't want to have to come around say "well he might have been correct". Not a valid reason, but then again I understand why.

But when Fauci said it was of natural origins and this is where is kind of gets into the weeds. Was Fauci being protected because he was the darling of the media and they didn't want to say anything to show he could have been wrong about something, giving the right something to pounce on.

Or was it more nefarious in that there is a possible link between the NIH's funding of gain of function research at the WIV and that would have looked really bad for Fauci. Again, media darling.

I also think there is a huge difference between a lab leak and the deliberate creation of a bioweapon.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Separate from all of the 1/6 discussion, which I fail to see the relationship,it is very important to know if this came from a lab vs nature.

Firstly, it would highlight that China lied even more than they already have AND that our own government actively worked to deceive us and may have been tangentially involved in creating the worst pandemic the world has seen in generations. If it was a lab leak, it uncovers an even more toxic media than we already know exists, not focused on truth but instead a particular narrative. And if it’s a lab leak, there’s potential implications of liability given the tremendous cost in lives and economically.

A lab leak also calls into question “gain of function research” or whatever you wish to call it and whether or not it should be performed, or how it should be performed, how we oversee such research, and/of how we should be funding it beyond our boarders.

And if it was of natural origin, it calls into question what greater safety measures we can take to protect from such viruses from spilling over from the animal population into the human population. And would be vital to understanding how these viruses emerge in the wild and to determine what future risks exist.

No scientist could ever say the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus is not very important or is irrelevant. To minimize the importance of the origin is akin to 9/11 occurring (except hundreds of thousands of deaths) and saying “but does it really matter who did it, why, and how?”

And this should not be seen as a left vs right thing. This is a science thing and politics should have nothing to do with it. Many on the right seem to believe the DoE and FBI’s conclusions as conclusive evidence and vindication, which it is not. But it cannot be denied it was largely the left, though not everyone, who refused to allow room for anything but a natural origin. And the response now among some on the left that that the origin is actually not relevant is ridiculous and entirely an attempt to cover up that they were wrong not to give the lab leak any credibility whatsoever. Because if we find the pandemic was of natural origin, I am quite sure these same people will all of a sudden say the origin is vitally important again.

Again, whatever political side you fall on or not fall on is not remotely relevant to the undeniable importance of figuring out where this virus came from. And with all due respect, to suggest it’s unimportant is either ignorance or falling victim to the partisanship our idiotic media and political class promote- which is exactly what landed us here in the first place.

I know several prominent progressive outlets that have always kept the lab leak on the table who also now feel that has definitively been stated as the cause just because a government agency has said it’s their opinion. As you mentioned this hasn’t been conclusive but they don’t seem to care. On top of this you have researchers who always promoted the lab leak now righteously demanding apologies because they too feel they are now proven correct.

I think it is important to know the truth but I think for the average citizen they don’t really care beyond it being a political win on their side and adding it to their blanket belief to trust or not trust the government on anything or everything. So answering "Why does it matter?" is really a question for each individual and how much their reason is political similar to what thier stance is on climate change.