Afghanistan (Again)

Jim "Stonekettle" Wright made this analogy: imagine the arsonist who set the big building on fire and then diverted three-quarters of the fire trucks two counties over, lamenting

and, damn, that guy is looking old
 
Even more than the hope that they may retain and secure some degree of foreign aid - which, remember, made up by far the greatest percentage of the Afghan state budget (between 67-78% of the total, depending on the year and source), the Taliban will be hoping to secure recognition for their regime.

Their original regime - the one that came to power in the 1990s - was recognised by only three states in the world; these were Pakistan (and even then, the Taliban didn't recognise the border/boundary with Pakistan, the Durand Line), KSA (Saudi-Arabia) and UAE.

Thus, I would argue that the emollient tone struck by the Taliban in today's press conference (and also agreeing to being interviewed by a female journalist on Tolo News - an excellent TV channel, by the way) are all part of a plan to persuade international interlocutors that Taliban 2.0 is a lot less inflexible than was its predecessor - in a bid to win diplomatic recognition, which would make any subsequent attempts to squash (internal) resistance considerably easier, by claiming that it is illegitimate and illegal.

Meanwhile, the (former) vice-president, Amrullah Saleh, (he was a very able head of the intelligence agency, the NDS), supposedly currently holed up in the Panjshir Valley (which was never captured by the Taliban in the original conflict), apparently in company with the son of the legendary Ahmad Shah Massoud, - also named Ahmad Massoud, think of the weight of history on those shoulders - has raised the flag of the old Northern Alliance, and named himself the legitimate acting - or caretaker - president, citing the constitution, and stating that this is being done in the absence of the departed (fled) president (Ashraf Ghani), and in the absence of any legal mechanism (a major failing on Ghani's part) to ensure the succession or a formal, legal, transition of power.

My guess is that the Taliban will attempt to sound as moderate and sane and flexible as possible in the hope of winning formal diplomatic recognition (from China, Russia, possibly some western states - e.g. the US) as quickly as possible so that they can then portray any possible, or potential, conflict from the north (the Tajik areas) as an illegal insurrection, and deal with it accordingly.

So, this is not just about securing aid - though that is imperative given the percentage of the state's budget that foreign aid comprises - but also about persuading the "international community" to formally recognise the Taliban as the legal, and legitimate rulers of Afghanistan.
Just summoning my own post - No 172 - rather than re-writing it, which discusses, among other things, how Amrullah Saleh - the Vice-President of the outgoing administration - has declared himself caretaker president, (claiming authority under the existing constitution - not yest repealed by the Taliban - in the absence or incapacity of the president) raised the flag of the Northern Alliance, (in the Panjshir Valley) and has sworn that he will never recognise the Taliban nor will he ever surrender to them.

FFS if true

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1427973568630083587/

SOMEBODY needs to write US and so many others a check.

In hundred dollar bills that might weigh 3726lbs or more than a ton & a half in bags. 👀
Okay:

Firstly, the source for this is Tajikistan, or rather, the Afghan Embassy in Tajikistan, which - as of a few hours ago, has recognised Amrullah Saleh as the President of Afghanistan, (symbolically removing Ashraf Ghani's portrait and replacing it with that of Amrullah Saleh).

In fact, the Afghan Embassy in Dushanbe (Tajikistan) has sought the arrest of Ghani over what they describe as "state treasury theft".

Saleh's own tweets (which have been retweeted by other Afghans - Tajiks and Uzbeks - holding senior military rank) have made it clear that he will never recognise nor accept Taliban rule, and he has requested support from those who share his views.

Thus far, Ahmad Massoud (a politician, and son of the legendary Ahmad Shah Massoud) and General Dostum (the Uzbek warlord) have made it clear that Saleh has their full support, and yes, this will include military support.

The state of Tajikistan seems to have followed suit and has recognised Amrullah Saleh as the legitimate President of Afghanistan.

This is being reported sympathetically in Indian media sources (bear in mind the fact that India would be pro-Afghanistan, especially any Afghan administration that loathes Pakistan - and Saleh, who headed the Afghan intelligence services - and was exceptionally well regarded when he did so - detests Pakistan which he views as seeking to destabilise Afghanistan), and on RT (Russian news).

Re Ashraf Ghani, the Tajiks in Tajikistan and in Afghanistan will view him as arrogant, incompetent (above all, a micro-managing militarily incompetent individual, with a mulish reluctance to delegate military matters to those who were qualified to act and adjudicate on military affairs- he was a technocrat), a traitor, and - with good reason - as an architect of his own political doom.

Once upon a distant time, Ghani was an outstanding Finance Minister in Hamid Karzai's first government (at the time, he was considered - and had been voted - the best Finance Minister in Asia), and was - by reputation - not at all corrupt.

But, things can change, and, change for the worse, and - if true, this is appalling - and I will admit that Ghani didn't remotely cover himself in glory by the irresponsible and furtive manner of his departure, nor by his self-serving silence since then.


Not to mention they've essentially handed over all of the weapons we armed them with.
Not quite all.

This story hasn't played out yet.

In Jalalabad today, (and this may also have happened in a second city), the Taliban shot at (and appear to have killed some people) demonstrators and marchers who protested - while waving the Afghan state flag - at the replacement of the Afghan State Flag by the Taliban's white standard, which they themselves had removed.
 
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Just summoning my own post - No 172 - rather than re-writing it, which discusses, among other things, how Amrullah Saleh - the Vice-President of the outgoing administration - has declared himself caretaker president, (claiming authority under the existing constitution - not yest repealed by the Taliban - in the absence or incapacity of the president) raised the flag of the Northern Alliance, (in the Panjshir Valley) and has sworn that he will never recognise the Taliban nor will he ever surrender to them.


Okay:

Firstly, the source for this is Tajikistan, or rather, the Afghan Embassy in Tajikistan, which - as of a few hours ago, has recognised Amrullah Saleh as the President of Afghanistan, (symbolically removing Ashraf Ghani's portrait and replacing it with that of Amrullah Saleh).

In fact, the Afghan Embassy in Dushanbe (Tajikistan) has sought the arrest of Ghani over what they describe as "state treasury theft".

Saleh's own tweets (which have been retweeted by other Afghans - Tajiks and Uzbeks - holding senior military rank) have made it clear that he will never recognise nor accept Taliban rule, and he has requested support from those who share his views.

Thus far, Ahmad Massoud (a politician, and son of the legendary Ahmad Shah Massoud) and General Dostum (the Uzbek warlord) have made it clear that Saleh has their full support, and yes, this will include military support.

The state of Tajikistan seems to have followed suit and has recognised Amrullah Saleh as the legitimate President of Afghanistan.

This is being reported sympathetically in Indian media sources (bear in mind the fact that India would be pro-Afghanistan, especially any Afghan administration that loathes Pakistan - and Saleh, who headed the Afghan intelligence services - and was exceptionally well regarded when he did so - detests Pakistan which he views as seeking to destabilise Afghanistan), and on RT (Russian news).

Re Ashraf Ghani, the Tajiks in Tajikistan and in Afghanistan will view him as arrogant, incompetent (above all, a micro-managing militarily incompetent individual, with a mulish reluctance to delegate military matters to those who were qualified to act and adjudicate on military affairs- he was a technocrat), a traitor, and - with good reason - as an architect of his own political doom.

Once upon a distant time, Ghani was an outstanding Finance Minister in Hamid Karzai's first government (at the time, he was considered - and had been voted - the best Finance Minister in Asia), and was - by reputation - not at all corrupt.

But, things can change, and, change for the worse, and - if true, this is appalling - and I will admit that Ghani didn't remotely cover himself in glory by the irresponsible and furtive manner of his departure, nor by his self-serving silence since then.



Not quite all.

This story hasn't played out yet.

In Jalalabad today, (and this may also have happened in a second city), the Taliban shot at (and appear to have killed some people) demonstrators and marchers who protested - while waving the Afghan state flag - at the replacement of the Afghan State Flag by the Taliban's white standard, which they themselves had removed.

I don’t want to oversimplify things, but at least in perception it appears the Taliban follows one the main tactics of drug cartels, “silver or lead” translated take the bribe/play ball or we kill you and your family. I don’t think even the biggest US gun enthusiast could say in all honesty how they would handle that scenario when they’re not actually facing it. So many of people’s actions and beliefs are driven by their economic realities. I’m sure for a lot of people their patriotism has a price tag that they may not even be aware of, or they’re willing to bend the definition when life and/or wealth are on the line. Suddenly their family becomes more important than country.
 
This is major news, and thus will be covered as such, but the usual GOP talking heads may want to sit this one out, a lot of decisions by the GOP led up to this. Judging by how fast the nation fell, this was a foregone conclusion. Biden is going to take heat over this, but so will the last three presidents, and it remains to be see how this move will be viewed in a few years time.

One thing I’m noticing from my friends on the right is this sudden concern for the people of Afghanistan, which is laughable given how they treat those south of our border seeking asylum from equally horrific violence and depravity.

The GOP may want to rethink their strategy if they want to use this to win points.

I do know I would have blasted Trump if things turned out like this under his watch. However, part of that is because it would be taken in context of all the other daft choices he made.
 
Not to mention they've essentially handed over all of the weapons we armed them with.

Means they have to hold some of it in reserve because spare parts are not forthcoming....

Well at least some of the planes and helicopters were flown by Afghan pilots over border to Turkmenistan (and some also to Tajikistan). The piece cited below says 22 planes and 24 helicopters went to Uzbekistan, which allowed them to land but termed the crossings illegal. That was Aug 15-16. One plane on Aug 15 did collide with an Uzbek escort fighter jet (originally that was called a shoot-down) in the process but the pilot survived and was given medical treatment. Same piece says 18 flights carrying Afghan passengers from Kabul were welcomed to Tajikistan by that country's ambassador from Afghanistan. That would have been by Aug 16. Not clear if those planes went back or remained in Tajikistan. We also don't know if the hand of the USA was involved in any of that; it's not impossible.


Naturally the Taliban is now reaching out to all the current and former Afghan military pilots saying come back and get right with us... remains to be seen how that sorts out, particularly the ones who crossed the border with their planes or copters.
 
This is major news, and thus will be covered as such, but the usual GOP talking heads may want to sit this one out, a lot of decisions by the GOP led up to this. Judging by how fast the nation fell, this was a foregone conclusion. Biden is going to take heat over this, but so will the last three presidents, and it remains to be see how this move will be viewed in a few years time.

One thing I’m noticing from my friends on the right is this sudden concern for the people of Afghanistan, which is laughable given how they treat those south of our border seeking asylum from equally horrific violence and depravity.

The GOP may want to rethink their strategy if they want to use this to win points.

I do know I would have blasted Trump if things turned out like this under his watch. However, part of that is because it would be taken in context of all the other daft choices he made.

Your mistake is trying to use logic. The GOP and their base are completely immune to irony and hypocrisy. “That didn’t age well” used to be used for when somebody said something years ago that they either contradict now or doesn’t fit current times. For the current right “that didn’t age well” can also be applied to the difference of how they started statement and how they ended it, a la “Socialism is evil! Medicare is awesome!”
 
One thing I’m noticing from my friends on the right is this sudden concern for the people of Afghanistan, which is laughable given how they treat those south of our border seeking asylum from equally horrific violence and depravity.

Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.
 
Means they have to hold some of it in reserve because spare parts are not forthcoming....

Well at least some of the planes and helicopters were flown by Afghan pilots over border to Turkmenistan (and some also to Tajikistan). The piece cited below says 22 planes and 24 helicopters went to Uzbekistan, which allowed them to land but termed the crossings illegal. That was Aug 15-16. One plane on Aug 15 did collide with an Uzbek escort fighter jet (originally that was called a shoot-down) in the process but the pilot survived and was given medical treatment. Same piece says 18 flights carrying Afghan passengers from Kabul were welcomed to Tajikistan by that country's ambassador from Afghanistan. That would have been by Aug 16. Not clear if those planes went back or remained in Tajikistan. We also don't know if the hand of the USA was involved in any of that; it's not impossible.


Naturally the Taliban is now reaching out to all the current and former Afghan military pilots saying come back and get right with us... remains to be seen how that sorts out, particularly the ones who crossed the border with their planes or copters.

I would doubt that any planes would have been allowed to land in Turkmenistan, it is a very closed & controlled country.

Instead, Tajikistan is a lot more likely as a destination and is the country to watch, not least because of the large numbers of ethnic Tajiks in Afghanistan itself, the role being played by the Afghan Embassy in Dushanbe - which has come out for Amrullah Saleh, - and the fact that the sympathies of the Tajik government will undoubtedly lie with their fellow (Afghan) Tajiks, if not outright with Amrullah Saleh.


Ashraf Ghani was denied permission to land in Tajikistan on Sunday; early reports suggested that he had headed to Oman, but today, what seem to me to be credible accounts suggest that he has been granted asylum in the UAE.
 
I would doubt that any planes would have been allowed to land in Turkmenistan, it is a very closed & controlled country.

It is that indeed, but those 22 planes and 24 helos did land there, possibly via backchannel arrangements involving the US. I've no idea of strength of Uzbekistan's air force but surely discretion the better part of valor when you get buzzed by half the then Afghan airforce in one afternoon. Whatever, and of course the Taliban would like the hardware to come back now, and of course the US would like that not to happen. My money's on the latter, even if it takes some pallets of cash to make that stick.

Interestingly, it was Tajikistan denying at least for awhile that planeloads of fleeing Afghans had arrived in country. But that would have been for domestic consumption. Lots of ethnic Tajiks and Uzbeks just over the border in Afghanistan.

Judging by how fast the nation fell, this was a foregone conclusion. Biden is going to take heat over this, but so will the last three presidents, and it remains to be see how this move will be viewed in a few years time.

Right... Americans did want to get out. Getting out of a war turned to quagmire is ugly... again. I guess a lot of us in the USA either don't remember or understand how that works. Not like in the movies, not even the ones that don't glorify violent conflict.

But after the evacuations are finished and we find something else to be outraged about, the bottom line will still be that a vast majority of ordinary Americans wanted to leave the war in Afghanistan behind. The people now trying to say that Biden's sole legacy will be that he messed up the exit from Afghanistan are shortsighted and ill-willed to boot.

Still, I doubt we realize that it will be generations before the citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq can truly put the conflicts that began in 2001 and 2003 in the rear view mirror for good, and that there are likely related costs for Americans that we've yet to pick up. That's on top of costs for care of wounded veterans, their families and the survivors of those who died. But the responsibility for those costs lie with four presidents and every voter who did or didn't vote in the elections that put them in the Oval. Someone has to make decisions. Every decision (or default) does count. How it adds up, well, whoever said let God sort it out probably got that part right.

The fall of Afghanistan in August of 2021 looked fast but some of the big newspapers like the FT have photo arrays of provincial maps of Afghanistan showing the switch of control over time from quite a few years back. The Taliban likely sat with local elders to negotiate transfer of power, one conflict-weary province at a time, with the bigger cities and the provinces with higher concentrations of US forces on hand left for late in the game, when the political momentum towards a national settlement finally picked up steam.

The US was always dependent on fixers and translators for local intel, and it wouldn't necessarily have been easy to know when a quiet ceasefire arrangement had been pre-arranged by local elders with the Taliban, cutting out the Kabul government's placeholders. To us and to Kabul at the time, any one of those gigs might have looked like the Taliban just gave up and the central government was at least nominally in charge. The Taliban would have been content to let it look that way and move on to focus the fighting elsewhere.

Once the US sat down with the Taliban though, it was surely a signal that Afghanistan's central government was not going to be the winner. Biden can blame Ghani for folding and fleeing, and that's reasonable. But once we started the talks with the Taliban, that did say to all the elders in all the tribes in all the provinces that the guy to talk with was the local Taliban guy, not the central government's puppet mayor being guarded by US-trained Afghan police. So whom to blame? No one, really. Everyone.

And of course the war's not over. Now it reverts to what it had been before the US went in there in 2001 to teach the Taliban a lesson for letting Osama bin Laden run training camps for terrorists. It's now back to a civil war taking a pause to regroup and retool and rethink what's next. Taliban versus other tribal elders and their designated warlords. There could be some surprises though. Twenty years of women being out and about is a big deal. Even the Taliban leadership realizes that, despite having talked a lot of the menfolk into a rollback to Islamic governance.

I'll say one other thing for the Taliban, they have better command of PR than they used to do. I guess all that money from the poppy fields can buy anything. They're currently putting a pretty smooth brand of lip gloss over how they'll eventually revert to operating. I wonder if Karzai is sleeping well at night. He's part of the sell-in to get the West to loosen up their sanctions and get the legitimate dough flowing into Afghanistan's coffers again, this time under control of the Taliban. Does Karzai imagine the Taliban will allow him to tap that stuff again once things "settle down" with a recognized Afghan government in which he's a mere figurehead?

Meanwhile Central Asia, China, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Europe and the USA all hold their breath. All of them buying in anew to the idea that Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. It's not Afghanistan, really. It's chaos that does empires in. It's chaos... where all the little things count and no one manages to keep track of it all.
 
Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.

That seems like an arbitrary way of deciding who gets sympathy and when. If I’m feeling bad for women, children and any others caught in violence, I don’t attach these sort of strings to it.
 
Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.

That seems like an arbitrary way of deciding who gets sympathy and when.

Not only that, @Herdfan must know better about the past relationships of the USA and our neighbors to the south.
 
Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.

It could be argued that our drug demand royally screwed up Mexico and Central America and if we are going to be honest, our war on drugs has been more interested in throwing users and low-end dealers in prison than attempting any kind of understanding of why so many people feel they have to be high to cope with how awesome we're told the US is.

I'm not completely excusing the governments of Mexico or Central America but I'm also not giving the government of Afghanistan a free pass. At some point there's a shift from dedicated partners to overreliance on one side and a complacent belief that, that side will always be there.
 
It could be argued that our drug demand royally screwed up Mexico and Central America and if we are going to be honest, our war on drugs has been more interested in throwing users and low-end dealers in prison than attempting any kind of understanding of why so many people feel they have to be high to cope with how awesome we're told the US is.
The war on drugs has never been about drugs, but instead of a way on controlling certain segments of the population. Otherwise alcohol would also be illegal.
 
Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.

Define invasion? A declaration of war was never issued for South American countries, but political, financial and moral imperialism has been happening since the inception of the US. We've been meddling in South & Central America far longer than Afghanistan, and much of the border crisis is a direct result of US policy from the last century.

We caused the humanitarian crises in these nations.
 
The war on drugs has never been about drugs, but instead of a way on controlling certain segments of the population. Otherwise alcohol would also be illegal.

The illegality of just about every drug can be traced directly back to racism. While we’re ultra concerned about the white people opioid crisis the pharmaceutical industry still has it on the market. They’ve just dialed back the PR campaign until the outrage dust settles.
 
We could talk about how the US has dealt with countries to the south in some other thread sometime. It's long been a tale of exploitation and it still is, even if what we do now tends to have the gloss of "assistance in training and education" or "local jobs development" pasted over it.

That's probably an improvement over just sending troops to assist in a coup, or sending covert operators in there to fix elections to our liking and so prevent rise of leaders who might nationalize US foreign investments. Still there's room for us to do better on that "jobs development" angle. And yeah, finding out how to rehab a country addicted to feel-good and party-down might help make drugs trafficking less of a thing on the demand side in the USA for sure.

As far as Afghanistan goes, the bottom line foretelling our exit from there without successfully standing up a central government has to be that Afghanistan has not abandoned a culture of negotiating ever-shifting alliances for temporary benefit. Sure that's a great talent and can be necessary for sheer survival, but it almost invariably also involves acceptance of and dependence on a profoundly corrupt society. There are historical reasons for that but it's a hindrance when it comes to the need to achieve transparency of governance in order to participate fully in global relationships and commerce.

Leaving aside questionable legitimacy of our prolonged stay in Afghanistan, we wanted Afghan women and kids to have a better shot at life, and that's an honorable ideal but a fairly impractical mission. Anyway we apparently didn't talk enough Afghan men into our view of how to make that happen, and we couldn't afford to keep buying alliances to try to make it stick forever either. It's the Afghan men who told us that, as the provinces folded one by one.

We gave money, arms, training, the lives and well being of our troops. Afghan leaders in Kabul said thanks, obviously not enough yet since there's still people fighting, so what else ya got.

Out in the boondocks what they mostly saw was devastation from the warring, the occasional drone attack gone wrong and the Taliban saying hey side with us, give us your poppy crop, we'll sell it for you and buy you shoes or bread or a tarp for your roof.

Biden was right to hold fast to departing. The ugliness isn't even over yet. But Afghan's corrupt leaders made a money pit out of our presence there, and our frenemies in the neighborhood do thank Afghanistan for it. The leaders of those countries are surely sorry we're leaving. Now they will all have to wonder again what the Taliban are up to around their own borders. Let them wonder. There was no good way to stay in or get out of that trap we stepped into in 2001. I just hope we're not off to do interventions in Africa again. It must be time for a break in the routine...
 
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