Afghanistan (Again)

we wanted Afghan women and kids to have a better shot at life

I know this has become a good chunk of this thread, but I also think we need to take a step back and realize that has absolutely nothing to do with why our government kept the military there. It's a nice feel-good cover story to help us keep our head in the sand on the real reasons. The world is full of other countries full of human rights abusers our government couldn't give less of a shit about.

This also gets to "don't tell me it was all for nothing" from military personnel and their families. Sorry, but a mountain of dead, injured, and mentally damaged people doesn't in and of itself mean it was all for something (or something noble). If believing there is some noble purpose behind your military job helps you get through the day, then fine, but don't be blind to the bigger picture that put and kept you there.
 
I don’t think this will hurt him with the American electorate either. I feel bad for the people of Afghanistan, and I hope they end up with a government that benefits their people... but getting out of Afghanistan is what Americans have wanted for many years.
 

Overall in the USA we do seem to have the attention span of a fruit fly, and there's always an apple or a banana somewhere else nearby. The Rs are moving back to their talking points in the culture wars because talking about Afghanistan much longer will not keep eyeballs on ads on Fox News.

The Dems will carry on bashing everyone in reach a little longer because that's the party in power and the Dem Congressional candidates for 2022 races are eager to disperse blame elsewhere --anywhere else-- before the main ads for those midterms are crafted.

Bottom line the average American of any political persuasion still couldn't label Afghanistan on a blank outline map of Asia, much less give a damn that Pakistan and China now jointly and separately have a lot to gain or lose in whatever tack the Taliban takes in trying to establish actual governance going forward. So on TV news, well... it's back to whose fault it is this afternoon that masks aren't being mandated (or are being mandated) or consumer sentiment is jittery and the housing market remains in disarray and some idiot stole some CDC vaccination certifications and peddled them on eBay for 10 bucks a pop.

Sure it has been selling papers to trash Biden about the human suffering as we depart a military effort in Afghanistan, but the right as well as the left out there in America wanted us to get the hell out and both are relieved it's happening (as well as disgusted by how it's being pulled off).

So Trump AND Biden made it happen, and both the Rs and the Ds do know that, and also know the voters will end up more satisfied by our leaving than devastated over how the departure is being executed. The country's not going to make either Trump's or Biden's legacy about exiting the battlefields of Afghanistan or the halls of its hapless, corrupt and propped-up central governments.

To me it's still mind-boggling to realize that for all the somber claims of "lessons learned" after the USA's war in Southeast Asia, we took twice as long to slog back out of Afghanistan's civil war as we did leaving the one in Vietnam.

I'm never going to forget my great great aunt (once a missionary in China, going there as a Methodist and coming back as an undeclared Buddhist!), remarking way back in 1963 that the USA had no business expecting to win a war that we were stepping into for ideological purposes but that the Vietnamese had long since undertaken 1) to declare independence from foreign occupiers for once and for all and 2) to fight to raise a flag for the side they believed would uphold their own families' values. She wrote a letter about that to a local newspaper back then. Guess the Pentagon of those times didn't read it. Of course neither did the Pentagon charged with trying to formulate "victory" from an even more complicated set of scenarios in Afghanistan.
 
Continuing with signs of that boredom, a slight digression as seen trending on Twitter... white rage.

White rage you ask?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428089708677042180/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428117704955678722/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428108846019588103/

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1428099037379670020/

giphy.gif


I so didn't see "white rage" on my Afghanistan bingo card, but here we are... It's always inevitably about the triggered few.
 
The right-wing crocodile tears over this...I just can't even right now. The same people who supported the Muslim ban are now suddenly so concerned about Afghan refugees. :rolleyes: Let's see how they react when the question of settling them in the U.S. comes up.
 
I so didn't see "white rage" on my Afghanistan bingo card, but here we are... It's always inevitably about the triggered few.

White rage, right. Must keep talking about white rage and the manufactured horrors of critical race theory and oh yeah the outrage of mandates on anything that one does not want to do but which as either law or temporary directive makes common sense for the common welfare. Rage against authority! Sure, that must be the way to keep Republican voters in the fold for the next election which is all that matters.

White "rage"? Someone ought mail those guys a copy of... oh I dunno, maybe one of Jericho Brown's poems from his collection "The Tradition," for those wanting to try to catch up with rage.

When rage burns white hot, it's invisible, exactly like black ice. Anyway it's not televised, even if some of its effects may eventually land on social media or the living room TV set.
 
Completely different situation. We didn't invade those countries, they screwed them up all by themselves. We screwed up Afghanistan and really had no business there, so we owe them something.

The U.S. has been heavily involved in Central America going back to the antics of the U.S.-based banana companies in the 1890s. And, under Reagan the U.S. supported and sustained the "contras" in Nicaragua.

And, of course, there was the coup in Honduras in 2009. The U.S. has sent troops, and "advisers" to Central American, and regularly manipulated the governments and their economies for its benefit for more than a century.

Moreover, the whole GOP concern about the Afghans is a put-on. They supported Trump and Miller, who fundamentally undermined USCIS and the State Dept., and create a massive, overwhelming backlog in immigration cases, including SIVs.

And, even as many in the GOP are clamoring for Biden to "do something," they're also worrying about Afghans "flooding" the county, and wondering if we can send them somewhere else. And, when they're no doing that, they're arguing that the U.S. is doing too much for people from Afghanistan while U.S. citizens are still on the ground.

The idea of responsibility isn't the motivating force behind the GOP's concern about Afghanistan.
 
And, even as many in the GOP are clamoring for Biden to "do something," they're also worrying about Afghans "flooding" the county, and wondering if we can send them somewhere else. And, when they're no doing that, they're arguing that the U.S. is doing too much for people from Afghanistan while U.S. citizens are still on the ground.


Compare and contrast to the attitude and actions of three tiny countries which are among the poorest in Europe:


Sure they hope what they've offered to do (take in tens of thousands of Afghan refugees each) will help the US continue to further their interests in finalizing their EU membership. But it's also because they're grateful for past assistance from the USA.

The U.S. has been closely involved in the democratization of all three countries.

In Kosovo, it spearheaded the NATO bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999 that led to Serbia’s withdrawal. However, the country is battling for international recognition; five EU countries don’t yet recognize it, creating a huge obstacle to accession.

In Albania and North Macedonia, the U.S. was crucial in getting both countries accepted into NATO

“In the last 30 years, U.S. support has been critical for Albania’s democratic processes as well as for all the nations in the Western Balkans,” said Gjergji Vurmo, who oversees the EU and Balkans program at the Institute for Democracy and Mediation in Tirana. “This is not the first time Albania responds positively to similar requests by the U.S.”
 
The more I think about it the more I realize how the military fucks with soldier’s heads. On one hand you’re doing a job, a job full of danger, death, and “greater good” order changes. On the other you’re often being told to gain the local’s trust. Unless you’re a complete sociopath, it’s pretty hard to do that without getting some attachments to people….you’re supposed to just drop when orders change.

At the end of the day we’re all just cannon fodder for the rich to defend their wealth or take revenge when it’s threatened. Even a key component of Hitler’s hatred of Jews was economic. To quote one of the great thinkers of our time, “Sad.”.
 
I do have some good news, a number of Afhgan interperters have been evacutated to the UK, who had worked for US Special Operations for over 10 years but could not get visas despite numorous letters of good service, then they worked for UK Special Operations for a short period of time. The UK Special Ops were able to get them out in 2 weeks thank goodness. Shame on my State Department. Kudos to the UK government.
 


This is probably another reason right-wing media has slowly been moving out the back door with their coverage.

“We probably shouldn’t remind people of…..Wait, what?!?! Who just said that? Christ. I need to look into early retirement. I can’t take this shit anymore.”
 
This is probably another reason right-wing media has slowly been moving out the back door with their coverage.

“We probably shouldn’t remind people of…..Wait, what?!?! Who just said that? Christ. I need to look into early retirement. I can’t take this shit anymore.”

A lot of the Rs' inconsistency is going to be coming home to roost. Ds are the "party of the big tent" but the Rs during the Trump era have specialized in being the party of the big mouth and big photo ops and big social media blurbs. When you don't have an actual policy past saying NO, you have plenty of time to engage in personality fluffing. The downside of that is that it all gets recorded, including any ad libs in lieu of policy statements.

The Republicans are not the only ones who like to play gotcha though. And Afghanistan is not the only situation where there's a wealth of archives on who said what to whom and when about which topics including foreign affairs.

Still, it's interesting that potential GOP prez candidates are starting to rummage through those archives so far in advance of 2024 primaries. There's gold in them thar hills...
 
 

Heh, they didn't let up on Bush either in the below-article lampooning. Not too shabby there.
 
I saw the Biden interview with this and can honestly say I've never been more disappointed in him. He was defensive and dismissive of the crisis that frankly he created by exiting with such haste. I get we want out, I think most agree on that but we could've taken the proper time to secure safe passage for all of these people while we still had control.
 
I saw the Biden interview with this and can honestly say I've never been more disappointed in him. He was defensive and dismissive of the crisis that frankly he created by exiting with such haste. I get we want out, I think most agree on that but we could've taken the proper time to secure safe passage for all of these people while we still had control.
For all the talk of rights being a big issue on the negotiating table, behind the scenes the main thing was always going to be successfully exporting troops, ancillary US and allied staff plus expat citizens, and equipment not being destroyed or given to the "government forces".... sigh....

"Oh yeah, and get all our translators and fixers out" surely kept falling down the page on the to-do list. The other problem is that after 20 years that's a very big number, never mind that some likely didn't keep in continuous contact. It's alarming if the Taliban are going door to door looking for them now. Based on what sources of information, one can wonder.
 
For all the talk of rights being a big issue on the negotiating table, behind the scenes the main thing was always going to be successfully exporting troops, ancillary US and allied staff plus expat citizens, and equipment not being destroyed or given to the "government forces".... sigh....

"Oh yeah, and get all our translators and fixers out" surely kept falling down the page on the to-do list. The other problem is that after 20 years that's a very big number, never mind that some likely didn't keep in continuous contact. It's alarming if the Taliban are going door to door looking for them now. Based on what sources of information, one can wonder.
I agree it seems like a huge logistical challenge but we've been there for 20 years so why not actually take a little time to formulate a real strategy, go through all the Visas and come up with a plan for their safe exit while we had things in place. Honestly, shutting it down with no thought like this is something we would expect from Trump, not Biden.
 
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