Afghanistan (Again)

Eric said:
I agree it seems like a huge logistical challenge but we've been there for 20 years so why not actually take a little time to formulate a real strategy, go through all the Visas and come up with a plan for their safe exit while we had things in place. Honestly, shutting it down with no thought like this is something we would expect from Trump, not Biden.
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Im very skeptical of our military to the point that I believe some feel they are above Congress and any administration. The leaders aren’t voted into office or have term limits. Call it the deep state if you want. When wondering WTF they’ve been doing to prepare for this under both Trump and Biden I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a serious "Don’t worry. We’re not going anywhere." element to the lack of planning.

I believe it was reported that the military kept certain things from Trump out of fear of one of his insane responses to it. What didn’t get said was "For the first time in history". I think it’s pretty obvious at this point that the military lead W Bush, and not the other way around. So while it’s easy to bag on a President during a failure, perhaps the more rooted failure is the President believing the military were taking care of shit he shouldn’t have to micromanage. Deferring to the smartest people in the room doesn’t mean those people aren’t putting their own self interest and agenda first.
 


At about the middle it starts agreeing with my above statement, past Maduro weighing in. So I’m not a lone nut job on this. They convinced Obama and Trump to stay. So why would they think they couldn’t convince Biden?
 
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Chew Toy McCoy said:
Im very skeptical of our military to the point that I believe some feel they are above Congress and any administration. The leaders aren’t voted into office or have term limits. Call it the deep state if you want. When wondering WTF they’ve been doing to prepare for this under both Trump and Biden I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a serious "Don’t worry. We’re not going anywhere." element to the lack of planning.

I believe it was reported that the military kept certain things from Trump out of fear of one of his insane responses to it. What didn’t get said was "For the first time in history". I think it’s pretty obvious at this point that the military lead W Bush, and not the other way around. So while it’s easy to bag on a President during a failure, perhaps the more rooted failure is the President believing the military were taking care of shit he shouldn’t have to micromanage. Deferring to the smartest people in the room doesn’t mean those people aren’t putting their own self interest and agenda first.
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The military oath requires one to follow all “lawful orders” - I guarantee you Trump requested unlawful orders dozens, if not hundreds of times. It is literally the responsibility of the top generals to meet with the top military lawyers (The JAG Corps) upon receiving orders they have even the slightest question about.
 
SuperMatt said:
The military oath requires one to follow all “lawful orders” - I guarantee you Trump requested unlawful orders dozens, if not hundreds of times. It is literally the responsibility of the top generals to meet with the top military lawyers (The JAG Corps) upon receiving orders they have even the slightest question about.
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This isn't all about Trump. This war has taken place under 4 presidents and both parties.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
This isn't all about Trump. This war has taken place under 4 presidents and both parties.
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You mentioned Trump in your post which is what I was responding to. As for the Bush administration, it was NOT the military wanting to send troops to die: it was the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney. Reprehensible “human beings” that never spared a single tear for any of those dead due to their decisions.
 
SuperMatt said:
You mentioned Trump in your post which is what I was responding to. As for the Bush administration, it was NOT the military wanting to send troops to die: it was the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney. Reprehensible “human beings” that never spared a single tear for any of those dead due to their decisions.
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I'm pretty positive there are people in the military below those positions that love war. Not the soldiers on the ground, but you don't have to go all the way to the top to find those people and they'll be there long after those voted in or appointed by those voted in are gone. You can't pin this entire drawn out mess on 1 party. You just can't, especially when you throw Congress into the mix.
 
Eric said:
I saw the Biden interview with this and can honestly say I've never been more disappointed in him. He was defensive and dismissive of the crisis that frankly he created by exiting with such haste. I get we want out, I think most agree on that but we could've taken the proper time to secure safe passage for all of these people while we still had control.
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How? Did you want US troops to stay an extra month? Two months? Three? The longer you stay, the better chance you have of getting people out. But the longer you stay, the longer we’re still engaged in a never-ending war. The longer you stay, the more American lives are lost.
 
Alli said:
How? Did you want US troops to stay an extra month? Two months? Three? The longer you stay, the better chance you have of getting people out. But the longer you stay, the longer we’re still engaged in a never-ending war. The longer you stay, the more American lives are lost.
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Extra months? How long has Biden been in office now? We could have actually mounted a strategy and plan to get those people out in preparation for leaving had we chose to but that's not what happened. In fact, they just flipped a switch and left the entire thing in chaos.

These people helped us when we needed them the most, we recruited them, ensured them they and their families would be safe and then just turned our backs on them. I don't care what side of the aisle one is on, we should all be outraged at this.

BTW I never once advocated for this war to continue, I have made that clear.
 
Eric said:
Extra months? How long has Biden been in office now? We could have actually mounted a strategy and plan to get those people out in preparation for leaving had we chose to but that's not what happened. In fact, they just flipped a switch and left the entire thing in chaos.

These people helped us when we needed them the most, we recruited them, ensured them they and their families would be safe and then just turned our backs on them. I don't care what side of the aisle one is on, we should all be outraged at this.

BTW I never once advocated for this war to continue, I have made that clear.
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What about the $billions of military hardware? Was there no plan to get it out?

Our troops should have been the last ones out the door.
 
It’s quite easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. The Taliban took over the country in days, barely having to fire a shot. I think people underestimated how much the Afghans disliked their government... that they were willing to let the Taliban take over without even trying to stop them. Afghan soldiers are supposedly worried about losing their lives now that the Taliban is in power. Well, they could have done something about it when they were equipped with the latest military equipment, in well-fortified positions. A bit late to worry about it now.
 
SuperMatt said:
It’s quite easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. The Taliban took over the country in days, barely having to fire a shot. I think people underestimated how much the Afghans disliked their government... that they were willing to let the Taliban take over without even trying to stop them. Afghan soldiers are supposedly worried about losing their lives now that the Taliban is in power. Well, they could have done something about it when they were equipped with the latest military equipment, in well-fortified positions. A bit late to worry about it now.
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This much is true, nobody saw how quickly it was coming and while it's sad, we have to hand it back and let the chips fall where they may.

As for the way we treated those who sacrificed everything for us I believe it'll go down in history as a travesty under Biden's watch and his "who gives a fuck" attitude during that interview was appalling. He deserves every bit of the one-two punch he's getting in the media right now and has lost a lot of credibility in my book.
 
Eric said:
This much is true, nobody saw how quickly it was coming and while it's sad, we have to hand it back and let the chips fall where they may.

As for the way we treated those who sacrificed everything for us I believe it'll go down in history as a travesty under Biden's watch and his "who gives a fuck" attitude during that interview was appalling. He deserves every bit of the one-two punch he's getting in the media right now and has lost a lot of credibility in my book.
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To be an advocate for the other side: we left Afghans with the training and equipment to defend themselves. They chose to walk away from their posts. They made a calculation that living under Taliban rule would be preferable to fighting the Taliban on the battlefield.

The Afghan government, although selected through elections, was still seen as a puppet of America by many there. It was also quite corrupt. The fact that the Taliban is seen as getting rid of the Americans was a massive boost for their popularity. Now that the dreaded Americans are gone, they have to try and hold power on their own merits. I don’t think it will be easy.
 
Eric said:
This much is true, nobody saw how quickly it was coming and while it's sad, we have to hand it back and let the chips fall where they may.

As for the way we treated those who sacrificed everything for us I believe it'll go down in history as a travesty under Biden's watch and his "who gives a fuck" attitude during that interview was appalling. He deserves every bit of the one-two punch he's getting in the media right now and has lost a lot of credibility in my book.
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It seems we did know how fast it was coming:

The classified cable warned of the large territorial gains that had been made by Taliban fighters and the lack of resistance being put up by the country’s own security forces, as well as recommendations to speed up the evacuation of Americans and its allies, two officials told the newspaper.
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news.yahoo.com

Secret State Department cable warned of Afghan collapse in July, report says

Secret State department cables warned that the Afghanistan government could quickly collapse following the US withdrawal later this month as recently as July, a report says. Around two dozen officials from the US Embassy in Kabul gave the Biden administration the stark warning in a 13 July...
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com




As for Biden, those of us who said he wasn't up for the task were mocked. He has now called an indefinite lid and is hiding in the basement eating mush and watching Matlock. Elections do have consequences. :(
 
Biden did what no president before him could do. They were making this point on Chapo. Trump wanted to withdraw the troops before the 2020 election, but probably decided not to once his advisors told him how bad it would be and that it would make him look like a loser (the only thing Trump cares about). Biden, on the other hand, is already seen as a loser, so he had nothing to lose. Because let's face it, there wasn't going to be any "smooth withdrawal". It was going to be this or hand it off to the next president. That's why the same thing happened over and over...
 
SuperMatt said:
To be an advocate for the other side: we left Afghans with the training and equipment to defend themselves. They chose to walk away from their posts. They made a calculation that living under Taliban rule would be preferable to fighting the Taliban on the battlefield.

The Afghan government, although selected through elections, was still seen as a puppet of America by many there. It was also quite corrupt. The fact that the Taliban is seen as getting rid of the Americans was a massive boost for their popularity. Now that the dreaded Americans are gone, they have to try and hold power on their own merits. I don’t think it will be easy.
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These aren't the people I'm talking about though. I'm talking about all of those who were interpreters and other support, many civilians that we promised security and protection for their services who are now left with no way out and a Taliban force searching them out.

the best we could do is burn all the buildings that housed their information which is a double edged sword because it also means they have no credentials to prove who they are to get them out, the Taliban is currently seeking them out through other means. In short, we've totally fucked them over and instead of making good on our promises we put targets on their backs. Shame on us all, especially Joe Biden for allowing that.
 
Eric said:
These aren't the people I'm talking about though. I'm talking about all of those who were interpreters and other support, many civilians that we promised security and protection for their services who are now left with no way out and a Taliban force searching them out.

the best we could do is burn all the buildings that housed their information which is a double edged sword because it also means they have no credentials to prove who they are to get them out, the Taliban is currently seeking them out through other means. In short, we've totally fucked them over and instead of making good on our promises we put targets on their backs. Shame on us all, especially Joe Biden for allowing that.
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Why is it not shame on the Afghan army for abandoning their posts? There is literally no way America could protect everybody now seen as an “American sympathizer” without staying as an occupying force in perpetuity. We are talking about tens of thousands of people at least who could fit that description.
 

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