Afghanistan (Again)

It seems we did know how fast it was coming:






As for Biden, those of us who said he wasn't up for the task were mocked. He has now called an indefinite lid and is hiding in the basement eating mush and watching Matlock. Elections do have consequences. :(
Hope you said the same about Trump, because even though they shut him down when he tried had he been given the option he would've done the exact same thing.
 
Why is it not shame on the Afghan army for abandoning their posts? There is literally no way America could protect everybody now seen as an “American sympathizer” without staying as an occupying force in perpetuity. We are talking about tens of thousands of people at least who could fit that description.
We went in there and took over their country, even when they didn't ask for it. We armed them, taught them, educated them and yet could not impose their will to fight for themselves. That's on them, I do understand that. I'm not talking about "American Sympathizers" but when we solicit the help of all those who stepped in on their side we goddamned well should be giving them every protection possible in an exit plan.

"But how could we have done that?" is a shitty excuse. We had control of the country, it's airports and all roads leading up to them. We already have these people identified, now before you send all of your troops home you setup outreach to these people, ensure safe passage to the airports and get the pentagon involved in the logistics. This could likely be done within a month or two, once you feel like you've gotten them out safely, pull the troops and let the country slip back into chaos again, that's on them.
 
Hope you said the same about Trump, because even though they shut him down when he tried had he been given the option he would've done the exact same thing.

He may not have been. But he wouldn't be hiding from it. Maybe doubling down on being correct( even if he isn't), but not hiding and calling a lid because he can't handle it.

I thought Biden was supposed to restore America's reputation with the world. He has done the opposite. He has made us look weak and incompetent. Don't believe me, take a look at some European newspapers.
 
He may not have been. But he wouldn't be hiding from it. Maybe doubling down on being correct( even if he isn't), but not hiding and calling a lid because he can't handle it.

I thought Biden was supposed to restore America's reputation with the world. He has done the opposite. He has made us look weak and incompetent. Don't believe me, take a look at some European newspapers.
The only difference here is we expected better from Biden, sadly we didn't get it. We know Trump has the forethought of a wrecking ball.
 
How is Biden "hiding" when he's spoken about this publicly multiple times now and defended it? He's doing exactly the kind of thing Trump did and would do. That's why these Biden vs. Trump conversations are just ridiculous. It depends entirely on which side you're on. The two men could do the exact same thing and people will see total opposites depending on which one they voted for.
 
How is Biden "hiding" when he's spoken about this publicly multiple times now and defended it? He's doing exactly the kind of thing Trump did and would do. That's why these Biden vs. Trump conversations are just ridiculous. It depends entirely on which side you're on. The two men could do the exact same thing and people will see total opposites depending on which one they voted for.
Exactly. We should all question our president where we disagree. Trump supporters blindly followed everything he did lock step no matter what and it was embarrassing to watch. Seriously, try thinking for yourself folks, it's liberating.
 
Exactly. We should all question our president where we disagree. Trump supporters blindly followed everything he did lock step no matter what and it was embarrassing to watch. Seriously, try thinking for yourself folks, it's liberating.

I have never agreed with everything Trump did or said. In some ways he was disappointing.

How is Biden "hiding" when he's spoken about this publicly multiple times now and defended it? He's doing exactly the kind of thing Trump did and would do. That's why these Biden vs. Trump conversations are just ridiculous. It depends entirely on which side you're on. The two men could do the exact same thing and people will see total opposites depending on which one they voted for.

He has spoken about it once since it happened. The second time he spoke was about COVID and he took no questions on Afghanistan. He has also removed all public appearances from his schedule.
 
I thought Biden was supposed to restore America's reputation with the world. He has done the opposite. He has made us look weak and incompetent. Don't believe me, take a look at some European newspapers.
Got any specific examples?
 
We went in there and took over their country, even when they didn't ask for it. We armed them, taught them, educated them and yet could not impose their will to fight for themselves. That's on them, I do understand that. I'm not talking about "American Sympathizers" but when we solicit the help of all those who stepped in on their side we goddamned well should be giving them every protection possible in an exit plan.

"But how could we have done that?" is a shitty excuse. We had control of the country, it's airports and all roads leading up to them. We already have these people identified, now before you send all of your troops home you setup outreach to these people, ensure safe passage to the airports and get the pentagon involved in the logistics. This could likely be done within a month or two, once you feel like you've gotten them out safely, pull the troops and let the country slip back into chaos again, that's on them.
I understand it’s a bad situation. But pretending there was some solution that would have protected everybody is a fantasy.
 
I understand it’s a bad situation. But pretending there was some solution that would have protected everybody is a fantasy.
Pretending that we couldn't have done anything is frankly bullshit and it's why everyone in the media (not just Republicans) is rightfully calling him out on it. Additionally I never said "everybody" you like to blanket my statements. Let me be clear "those who have helped us, that we have assured protection".

Going to agree to disagree here, IMO any "Liberal" who is okay with the preventable human atrocities occurring is talking out of both sides of their mouth.
 
It's why some are calling him out.

It's not why everyone is. They're also calling him out because this is a major setback for the military-industrial complex. The media (which of course backs it) didn't want a withdrawal either way; that's why they were so critical of it before it even happened.

Not all the criticisms of this withdrawal are out of good faith concern for people left behind.
 
Pretending that we couldn't have done anything is frankly bullshit and it's why everyone in the media (not just Republicans) is rightfully calling him out on it. Additionally I never said "everybody" you like to blanket my statements. Let me be clear "those who have helped us, that we have assured protection".

Going to agree to disagree here, IMO any "Liberal" who is okay with the preventable human atrocities occurring is talking out of both sides of their mouth.
You assume they were preventable based on a theoretical alternative course of action that may or may not have worked any better. The plan didn’t work well. Would another plan have worked better? Maybe. The President has taken the blame for this, not fired the generals or others… there might have been another way of doing this with a better outcome, but we will never know now.
 
You assume they were preventable based on a theoretical alternative course of action that may or may not have worked any better.

The Taliban has seized billions of dollars, 600,000 weapons, 75,000 vehicles and 200 aircraft. There is no excuse for this level of incompetence.
 
The Taliban has seized billions of dollars, 600,000 weapons, 75,000 vehicles and 200 aircraft. There is no excuse for this level of incompetence.
Almost like it was a bad idea to even start such a stupid war.

Also, I want to at least see a thank you note from them.
 
A civil war that began in the 20th century and ended 25 years later, although largely ignored in the west and certainly in the USA, was that between the Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lanka. Now of course the 21st century has a civil war that has gone on in Afghanistan for almost as long (and despite the exit of the USA is likely to continue after our departure). One chronicler of the Sri Lankan conflicts made an observation that struck me as applicable to all wars but particularly perhaps to Afghanistan's latest experience, since this war that we began in 2001 was hardly the first in that country's benighted history.

“The war ingested everything whole, bent everything to its service: religion and politics, history and geography, fact and mythology.”

--Samanth Subramanian, in This Divided Island: Life, Death and the Sri Lankan War
The reason I mention that at this juncture is because the departure of the US and western allies has not concluded. Yet we have all these newspaper editorial boards and bloggers spilling the ink of history over Afghanistan as if the last Afghan to be rescued has already found such luck and as if Joe Biden made the only decisions affecting them. This has clearly not been the case either on battlefields, in military conference rooms or at negotiation tables during the past 20 years of spilled blood in Afghanistan, a country with a history of spilling the blood of its own and of foreigners since even before Alexander the Great set foot there in 325 BC. The buck may stop with Biden and he hasn't said it doesn't, but he has pointed out that it takes more than one to tango into or out of a war. However, one wouldn't know that by wading through some of today's news and social media commentary.

From my point of view, much of the current political commentary that lays the fate of Afghanistan --or the blame for the outcome of our departing this particular civil war-- at the feet of Joe Biden is off by a mile and a few millennia as well. And much of that commentary belongs necessarily jumbled together in Subramanian's "fact and mythology" pigeonhole, for future historians to try to sort out.

I say "necessarily" because of course some of the pundits' pronouncements are anything but free of agenda, regardless of cited facts and their sources, and there are as many political agendas afoot in the USA right now as there are Afghans holding Special Immigrant Visas (no matter where the holders reside or are queued up at the moment).

Seems to me there should be more differentiation between unhappiness over the present state of Afghans who assisted the USA during this conflict and dissatisfaction over the manner of our leaving. With respect to the latter, we in the general public have very little notion right now of all the effort that has gone into our exit, never mind a good grip on how it might have been done better.

Weird how lots of us agree that once a war starts, the best-laid plans give way to facts on the ground, but some of us now seem to set that idea aside before our participation in this particular war in Afghanistan has concluded.
 
Yes, people and politicians are unhappy with the withdrawal and Afghanistan reverting to Taliban rule.

However, if following through with the withdrawal is how Biden made you look weak and incompetent, the only alternative would have been to cancel the withdrawal, increase the presence and stay indefinitely. Would you have preferred that?
 
Yes, people and politicians are unhappy with the withdrawal and Afghanistan reverting to Taliban rule.

However, if following through with the withdrawal is how Biden made you look weak and incompetent, the only alternative would have been to cancel the withdrawal, increase the presence and stay indefinitely. Would you have preferred that?

There has to be somewhere in the middle we could have landed. We have the superior military. We could have provided security around our own damn airbase at a minimum. We could have kept the Taliban out of Kabul and Bagram until we evacuated those who needed it. Then pulled out of Kabul and spent the next couple of months getting the weapons out of the country.
 
There has to be somewhere in the middle we could have landed. We have the superior military. We could have provided security around our own damn airbase at a minimum. We could have kept the Taliban out of Kabul and Bagram until we evacuated those who needed it. Then pulled out of Kabul and spent the next couple of months getting the weapons out of the country.

I too would like to know more about the rationale behind leaving Bagram early.
 
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