Anarchy-Any Anarchists Here?

[Huntn]

I’d like to pick you brain. I’ve gotten myself in a longish back and forth on Mastodon, from self described Anarchists who claim that under Capitalism all workers are coerced. Believe me I’m down/negative about Capitalism, but my impression is that anarchy equals tear it all down and let the people rise up from the ashes and decide, even if there will be power centers, hierarchies, local war lords, attempts to consolidate power, with zero assurance that anarchy will survive as a system. Besides, the human species, we‘ve grown to such large numbers, I think if we don’t get our collective act together regarding the environment, we are screwed. Thoughts?

 

[GermanSuplex]

I don’t want the system destroyed - I just want it to not be controlled by lobbyists and billionaires.

I had a margin of hope that once Trump got elected, he was going to start pointing fingers at politicians and tell them “this is stupid, fix it”, and get the American public up the asses of do-nothing politicians who keep the status quo.

He had that opportunity, but instead used his popularity with his supporters to alienate everyone else and make racism popular again. Even as the dumbest president of all time, he could have been the most popular as a true outsider president elected to shake up the status quo.

Trump is proof Americans desire an outsider president to shake things up. I’m not for anarchy, but ffs, can we try some common sense approaches to various issues? A simpler tax code, lower taxes for virtually all Americans.

I think there’s a good opportunity for someone of either party - or a third party - to have a Trump-like run done correctly. Mark Cuban, for instance.

 

[Nycturne]

Anarchism is basically libertarianism taken to 11, which I already have problems with. The problem I have with anarchism is the same problem I have with centralized communism. Both tend to fail when bad actors show up and find ways to twist it into some form of authoritarian state. Anarchism in particular is pretty vulnerable because it actively breaks down collective power and makes it ripe for people to build up power.

I don't disagree that labor is coerced under capitalism as a general rule, but anarchism suggests the answer is to weaken capital and somehow prevent the hierarchy from taking some other form, or even just recreating itself? I can't really buy the idea that this works as it also weakens labor in the long run in an era where capital stands on par with many nation states. Large populations also means a lot of "power" you can concentrate under a hierarchy of any kind. Communism stands in contrast by saying labor should take more collective power letting it stand up against concentrated power structures like modern capital. I tend to lean more in that direction, thus support for effective labor regulation, unions, welfare services, etc.

I had a margin of hope that once Trump got elected, he was going to start pointing fingers at politicians and tell them “this is stupid, fix it”, and get the American public up the asses of do-nothing politicians who keep the status quo.

He had that opportunity, but instead used his popularity with his supporters to alienate everyone else and make racism popular again.

To be honest, he opened his whole election campaign with racist dog whistles. I'm not sure it could have gone any differently than it did. The problem with populism is that it is far too often the tool of the greedy. Anyone taking up the populist mantle should immediately be suspect IMO, especially with the sort of wealthy background of the populist authoritarians of the last century.

I think there’s a good opportunity for someone of either party - or a third party - to have a Trump-like run done correctly. Mark Cuban, for instance.

Sorry, I just can't buy that populism from a different billionaire is somehow going to turn out differently. These are the types of folks who have benefited from the system. How are they incentivized to diminish their own power in politics?

 

[rdrr]

 

[Herdfan]

I don’t want the system destroyed - I just want it to not be controlled by lobbyists and billionaires.

I had a margin of hope that once Trump got elected, he was going to start pointing fingers at politicians and tell them “this is stupid, fix it”, and get the American public up the asses of do-nothing politicians who keep the status quo.

I did too.

But I also think he scared them enough that they did their best to torpedo everything he tried. And they will do the same to the next outsider.

Simpler tax code? Lower taxes for everyone. Keep saying things like this and you will lose your liberal card.

 

[Eric]

I did too.

But I also think he scared them enough that they did their best to torpedo everything he tried. And they will do the same to the next outsider.

Simpler tax code? Lower taxes for everyone. Keep saying things like this and you will lose your liberal card.

Would almost be like a Conservative asking for billionaires to pay the same tax rates as say a nurse or a teacher, they would be eviscerated.

 

[Nycturne]

Simpler tax code? Lower taxes for everyone. Keep saying things like this and you will lose your liberal card.

Why is a simpler tax code anti-liberal (and I'm taking liberal to mean "left wing" here rather than the dictionary definition)? I'm all in favor of a simpler tax code that reduces costs associated with paying taxes, especially for lower income earners. This point is more "elected officials just DGAF".

And I'll notice he said "virtually all Americans". Careful about reading too much there. At least in my leftist ideal, I'd be looking at stronger wealth taxes and reinstating elements of estate taxes that declined under Regan and HW Bush. There are ways to pay for programs that don't require placing all the burden on labor, nor require that we let capital keep all the loopholes and the like they've gained via tax code changes (something a simpler tax code could help with).

 

[rdrr]

Would almost be like a Conservative asking for billionaires to pay the same tax rates as say a nurse or a teacher, they would be eviscerated.

Exactly, I would love a simpler tax code that is fair across the board, but it would never fly. Decades ago (I think 1996) a republican candidate was pushing for a 10% flat tax, no deductions and no loop holes. I think the biggest objectors were the millionaires and (now) billionaires.

I don't consider myself a true left liberal, but I lean that way on a lot of topics. I think everyone should pay their own fair share.

 

[Huntn]

My apologies for forgetting about this thread. Just threw some likes out. I continue to engage anarchists on Mastodon, not with hostility, but let’s talk about it. Yesterday a guy bailed on me because he thought I could not have my mind changed and I was not educated enough about anarchy.. There are others who will talk about it, but my experience is, maybe not all but some, is that they become defensive fast and then the discussion goes down hill.

 

[Yoused]

I was thinking about this some while ago. "Capitalism" is a sort of organic ideaology: it just forms and develops in a natural sort of way. "Communism" and "anarchism" are reactive ideologies, that develop in response to the problems that arise within the evolution of "capitalism". Similarly, "libertarianism" is an ideology that forms in response to communist/anarchic ideology.

What seems to be the problem with modern capitalism is that it has an element of imperialism to it. Enterprises keep getting larger, trying to gain more power. I think that is largely the issue that anarchism tries to address. If we had a trade-based socio-economic system that was able to keep enterprise in check, prevent the establishment of enduring mega-corporations and localize the realm of ownership, so that barons/companies who on vast empires far beyond the range of their view, perhaps the system would be more fair.

 

[Renzatic]

Any notion I had that most people are capable of rational self governance kinda flew out the window during the pandemic.