COVID Stupid

[User.45]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1432101388318822401/

I'm really really really sick of this ivermectin shit from everyone

Sick of the conspiracy theorists because they are stupid. Sick of those who mock ivermectin, because the evidence isn't settled, so they will look bad if it turns out to have a weak mortality reducing effect. It's very very very hard to remain impartial in these issues, when laypeople startbetting on outcomes creating an unnecessary conflict of interest.

Two months ago I reviewed the evidence and it got me really really pissed off. In the meta-analyses (when they make moderately compromised at best efforts to pool data from multiple studies) the mortality reducing effect came from a subset of studies, from not very reputable institutions with oftentimes disproportionately high mortality reported in the control groups. One of these "studies" was actually retracted. The better designed ones were negative.

I think there might be a very weak signal for a mortality reducing effect, but you have to understand biases that come from lack of/improper blinding and patient selection. I can certainly tell that the mortality reduction is AT BEST 1-2 orders of magnitude lower than vaccination. So as long as people are pushing for to study it as a treatment to complement vaccination, it's totally fine. The moment they demand unproven therapies without evidence, or try to sell it as an alternative to the vaccine problems start.

 

[SuperMatt]

I'm really really really sick of this ivermectin shit from everyone

Sick of the conspiracy theorists because they are stupid. Sick of those who mock ivermectin, because the evidence isn't settled, so they will look bad if it turns out to have a weak mortality reducing effect. It's very very very hard to remain impartial in these issues, when laypeople startbetting on outcomes creating an unnecessary conflict of interest.

Two months ago I reviewed the evidence and it got me really really pissed off. In the meta-analyses (when they make moderately compromised at best efforts to pool data from multiple studies) the mortality reducing effect came from a subset of studies, from not very reputable institutions with oftentimes disproportionately high mortality reported in the control groups. One of these "studies" was actually retracted. The better designed ones were negative.

I think there might be a very weak signal for a mortality reducing effect, but you have to understand biases that come from lack of/improper blinding and patient selection. I can certainly tell that the mortality reduction is at best 1-2 orders of magnitude lower than vaccination. So as long as people are pushing for to study it as a treatment to complement vaccination, it's totally fine. The moment they demand unproven therapies without evidence, or try to sell it as an alternative to the vaccine problems start.

My opinion on this is similar to my opinion that drug commercials should not be allowed on TV. People see something advertised and want it, whether it’s the right medicine for them or not. I’m sure some of those medicines are good for the people that need them. Ivermectin might be good when used properly by a doctor. But an average person buying it and using it as a preventative? That’s asking for trouble.

 

[JayMysteri0]

What pisses me off is that the same people who legitimately criticize socialism for rewarding people who are half-assing, do the very thing when it comes to COVID: leaching off the efforts of others to contain the pandemic. They've now successfully turned this into a social darwinistic shit show. In the meantime, I have cancer patients who still didn't mount a humoral immune response despite a booster.

To clarify you are leaving out one important component besides "social darwinistic shit show". Capitalism, making a buck. A lot of what you see that drives some of this is based on the old carny traveling sideshow days of pushing 'snake oil'. Whether it's what brought us ivermectin from the traveling road show of doctors that had one believe cysts are the results of sex with demons. Or a governor who back at the start of the pandemic took $18.5 million from wrestling entertainment company to be classified as an "essential service" to keep operating when other companies who didn't have that kind of money shut down. To now taking money from the guy doing well with these covid treatement ( not vaccine ) pop up clinics.

Only the days of snake oil ultimately being harmless, have long passed, with no concern to it's victims.

It's all about the benjamins baby!

No insults directed at those seeking to capitalize off of the easily influenced who are now the ones dying to intentionally peddled misinformation.

Certainly wouldn't want to insult those folks.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

You know, I’d always heard that a lot of Republicans don't give a shit because they’re expecting the End Times. I’d always put that down to a gross exaggeration.

And then…

Reeves: Mississippians 'Less Scared' of COVID, 'Believe in Eternal Life'

"When you believe in eternal life...then you don't have to be so scared of things," the Mississippi Republican governor said.

www.newsweek.com

The evangelicals got wind that atheists are getting into heaven through a “being a good person without His guidance” loophole. So they’re trying to get as many followers up their to join in A Billion Soul March to His throne to remind Him being a good person has nothing to do with getting into heaven. Getting into heaven should be decided by how much exclusionary scripture you can warp and how many times you’ve publicly judged and condemned people in His name.

 

[JayMysteri0]

 

[User.45]

My opinion on this is similar to my opinion that drug commercials should not be allowed on TV. People see something advertised and want it, whether it’s the right medicine for them or not. I’m sure some of those medicines are good for the people that need them. Ivermectin might be good when used properly by a doctor. But an average person buying it and using it as a preventative? That’s asking for trouble.

AFAIK you need an FDA approval for that, which is a major difference.

-----

To clarify you are leaving out one important component besides "social darwinistic shit show". Capitalism, making a buck. A lot of what you see that drives some of this is based on the old carny traveling sideshow days of pushing 'snake oil'. Whether it's what brought us ivermectin from the traveling road show of doctors that had one believe cysts are the results of sex with demons. Or a governor who back at the start of the pandemic took $18.5 million from wrestling entertainment company to be classified as an "essential service" to keep operating when other companies who didn't have that kind of money shut down. To now taking money from the guy doing well with these covid treatement ( not vaccine ) pop up clinics.

Only the days of snake oil ultimately being harmless, have long passed, with no concern to it's victims.

It's all about the benjamins baby!


No insults directed at those seeking to capitalize off of the easily influenced who are now the ones dying to intentionally peddled misinformation.

Certainly wouldn't want to insult those folks.

The carnival analogy is a good one, because the share of potential profit is comparable to that of carnivals vs the whole entertainment industry. Drug repurposing is generally a good thing, so the issue is that people misinterpret a process/trend that could be beneficial in the right context. Ironically I clashed with a PhD biologist who recommended ivermectin as an adjunctive therapy to cancer. WTF. There's literally no study on this... In the meantime, I found a single study on another dewormer in the context of cancer, which happened to be published my very colleagues. So if something actually good comes out of drug repurposing, people will already have a negative attitude towards it.

 

[Roller]

AFAIK you need an FDA approval for that, which is a major difference.

The carnival analogy is a good one, because the share of potential profit is comparable to that of carnivals vs the whole entertainment industry. Drug repurposing is generally a good thing, so the issue is that people misinterpret a process/trend that could be beneficial in the right context. Ironically I clashed with a PhD biologist who recommended ivermectin as an adjunctive therapy to cancer. WTF. There's literally no study on this... In the meantime, I found a single study on another dewormer in the context of cancer, which happened to be published my very colleagues. So if something actually good comes out of drug repurposing, people will already have a negative attitude towards it.

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings • Ohio Capital Journal

A Butler County judge ruled in favor of a woman last week who sought to force a hospital to administer Ivermectin — an animal dewormer that federal regulators have warned against using in COVID-19 patients — to her husband after several weeks in the ICU with the disease. Butler County Common...

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Hopefully, this decision will be appealed and struck down forcefully by a higher court. But if it stands, patients will bring similar lawsuits every time some new, untested therapy is proposed. I realize that courts sometimes get involved in medical care decisions, as for example when they order therapy for children over their parent's objections. But this is dangerous. Every sane healthcare provider and professional organization should speak out against this ruling.

BTW, I know and hope that medications indicated for other conditions may turn out to be effective against COVID-19. Hundreds are in various stages of clinical investigation. But until they have a demonstrable risk:benefit profile in well-conducted studies, it's harmful to evangelize their use, and it's even more harmful to compel it.

 

[thekev]

Highlights (lowlights?) of an anti-vax rally:

After seeing that last guy, I really want to go out and purchase a megaphone. Right now, I'm imagining how much entertainment I could derive by using it in conjunction with an air horn.

 

[thekev]

Do keep in mind that this is probably exacerbated by many members of the same group failing to take other precautions (masks, social distancing, etc).

 

[Pumbaa]

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings • Ohio Capital Journal

A Butler County judge ruled in favor of a woman last week who sought to force a hospital to administer Ivermectin — an animal dewormer that federal regulators have warned against using in COVID-19 patients — to her husband after several weeks in the ICU with the disease. Butler County Common...

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Hopefully, this decision will be appealed and struck down forcefully by a higher court. But if it stands, patients will bring similar lawsuits every time some new, untested therapy is proposed. I realize that courts sometimes get involved in medical care decisions, as for example when they order therapy for children over their parent's objections. But this is dangerous. Every sane healthcare provider and professional organization should speak out against this ruling.

BTW, I know and hope that medications indicated for other conditions may turn out to be effective against COVID-19. Hundreds are in various stages of clinical investigation. But until they have a demonstrable risk:benefit profile in well-conducted studies, it's harmful to evangelize their use, and it's even more harmful to compel it.

Not available in my country so I had to get it somewhere else. At least it was a doctor behind prescribing Ivermectin and not the court. Still smells fishy to me.

After Smith was on the ventilator for 19 days, [Smith's wife and guardian] reached out to Dr. Fred Wagshul about Ivermectin usage to treat COVID-19, according to court documents. Wagshul prescribed 30mg of Ivermectin to Smith, but the hospital staff refused to administer this prescription.

 

[SuperMatt]

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings • Ohio Capital Journal

A Butler County judge ruled in favor of a woman last week who sought to force a hospital to administer Ivermectin — an animal dewormer that federal regulators have warned against using in COVID-19 patients — to her husband after several weeks in the ICU with the disease. Butler County Common...

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Hopefully, this decision will be appealed and struck down forcefully by a higher court. But if it stands, patients will bring similar lawsuits every time some new, untested therapy is proposed. I realize that courts sometimes get involved in medical care decisions, as for example when they order therapy for children over their parent's objections. But this is dangerous. Every sane healthcare provider and professional organization should speak out against this ruling.

BTW, I know and hope that medications indicated for other conditions may turn out to be effective against COVID-19. Hundreds are in various stages of clinical investigation. But until they have a demonstrable risk:benefit profile in well-conducted studies, it's harmful to evangelize their use, and it's even more harmful to compel it.

WTF is up with judges telling doctors how to do their jobs? If a judge tells a doctor to administer a drug that then kills somebody... ????? The judiciary in this country seems to need reforming.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Now that's taking things WAY too far. Doctors swear an oath to do no harm. I don't see how a judge can overrule that.

Second, if you want to stick your damn nose into things, mandate the vaccine, not unproven medications. Wield your power to prevent people from getting sick, not to let them pick their own treatment after getting sick.

It's like abolishing speed limits and drunk driving laws and trying to solve all the problems that would bring with better air bags.

 

[User.45]

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings • Ohio Capital Journal

A Butler County judge ruled in favor of a woman last week who sought to force a hospital to administer Ivermectin — an animal dewormer that federal regulators have warned against using in COVID-19 patients — to her husband after several weeks in the ICU with the disease. Butler County Common...

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Hopefully, this decision will be appealed and struck down forcefully by a higher court. But if it stands, patients will bring similar lawsuits every time some new, untested therapy is proposed. I realize that courts sometimes get involved in medical care decisions, as for example when they order therapy for children over their parent's objections. But this is dangerous. Every sane healthcare provider and professional organization should speak out against this ruling.

BTW, I know and hope that medications indicated for other conditions may turn out to be effective against COVID-19. Hundreds are in various stages of clinical investigation. But until they have a demonstrable risk:benefit profile in well-conducted studies, it's harmful to evangelize their use, and it's even more harmful to compel it.

Ooh, this is disturbing. This reminds me why I hated practicing in Ohio...

Julie Smith [patient's wife] found Ivermectin on her own and connected with Dr. Fred Wagshul, an Ohio physician who her lawsuit identifies as “one of the foremost experts on using Ivermectin in treating COVID-19.” He prescribed the drug, and the hospital refused to administer it.

For those who aren't in the field, there are a bunch of major red flags here:
1. You hardly ever prescribe drugs to a patient that is not under your direct inpatient care (rare exceptions are drugs that require special training like prescribing chemotherapy)
2. If you do so, you do it in collaboration with the team who actually is responsible for any side-effects and who are responsible for the day-to-day care planning
3. They could have requested a transfer if the hospital this guy is practicing out of can provide similar or higher level of care (and the patient is stable enough for transport)
4. How can someone be the "foremost expert" of something but have no peer reviewed publication in like 29 years on anything? (He has an unimpressive CV: https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/FLCCC-Alliance-member-CV-Wagshul.pdf)

But the absurdity isn't over here:

Julie Smith filed the lawsuit on behalf of her husband of 24 years. He tested positive for COVID-19 July 9, was hospitalized and admitted to the ICU July 15, and was sedated and intubated and placed on a ventilator Aug. 1. He later developed a secondary infection he’s still wrestling with as of Aug. 23, court records say.

The guy had definitely cleared the virus already, so what's the expectation here? Timetravel?!

 

[Runs For Fun]

Now we have judges ordering hospitals to administer ivermectin:

Judge orders Cinci hospital to treat COVID-19 patient with Ivermectin, despite CDC warnings • Ohio Capital Journal

A Butler County judge ruled in favor of a woman last week who sought to force a hospital to administer Ivermectin — an animal dewormer that federal regulators have warned against using in COVID-19 patients — to her husband after several weeks in the ICU with the disease. Butler County Common...

ohiocapitaljournal.com

Hopefully, this decision will be appealed and struck down forcefully by a higher court. But if it stands, patients will bring similar lawsuits every time some new, untested therapy is proposed. I realize that courts sometimes get involved in medical care decisions, as for example when they order therapy for children over their parent's objections. But this is dangerous. Every sane healthcare provider and professional organization should speak out against this ruling.

BTW, I know and hope that medications indicated for other conditions may turn out to be effective against COVID-19. Hundreds are in various stages of clinical investigation. But until they have a demonstrable risk:benefit profile in well-conducted studies, it's harmful to evangelize their use, and it's even more harmful to compel it.

Oh FFS Ohio.

 

[Thomas Veil]

This reminds me why I hated practicing in Ohio...

Wait a minute…you were here??

Why didn’t you stop in and say hi?

 

[Pumbaa]

Wait a minute…you were here??

Why didn’t you stop in and say hi?

Quick! Get a court order and have it fixed. Traveling through time is apparently a reasonable thing then, as noted by @P_X.

 

[thekev]

For those who aren't in the field, there are a bunch of major red flags here:

I would probably just call him a shithead.

For reference as to why:

In an interview, Wagshul said the science behind Ivermectin’s use in COVID-19 patients is “irrefutable.” The CDC and FDA engaged in a “conspiracy,” he said, to block its use to protect the FDA’s emergency use authorization for COVID-19 vaccines. He said the mainstream media and social media companies have been engaging in “censorship” on Ivermectin’s merits, and that the U.S. government’s refusal to acknowledge its benefits amounts to genocide.

and..

“If we were a country looking at another country allowing those [COVID-19] deaths daily … we would have been screaming, ‘Genocide!’” he said.

seriously (emphasis, mine)?

Dr. Leanne Chrisman-Khawam, a physician and professor at the Ohio University Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine, called the FLCCCA “snake oil salesmen.” She reviewed the association’s research on the drug’s uses and said there are some serious problems with its cited studies: many of them don’t show positive results, and those that do bear design flaws like small control groups, unaccounted for variables, non-blinded studies, not accounting for mitigations like vaccines and masking practices, and others.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1432101388318822401/

How do you guys even find this shit? Also, for once it's not Futurama, even though Leela was a centaur in one episode. This time I'm going with Father Ted.

 

[Eric]

SMH

 

[SuperMatt]

SMH

I pray that they learned something from this...

 

[User.45]

Wait a minute…you were here??

Why didn’t you stop in and say hi?

I was too busy noping outta there