Electric Vehicles: General topics

[User.45]

They are the market leader in the segment, so they will be viewed with more scrutiny.

Exactly. Comes with the status that Tesla has earned. In an Apple vs. Samsung analogy, Samsung did have many chances to overtake. Samsung has had better hardware perhaps more times than not, yet Apple won out with the level of durability and long-term support and software upgrades they offered many years out. Longevity will make or break Tesla ultimately. The software stuff is definitely there, but the hardware needs to survive too, and that's where I have doubts.

Well said. I also had a lot of issues with my BMW that were worthy of calling out and I've done so on here (and other places) a few times but I still enjoyed the car overall. IMO someone like @P_X who has driven it and is contemplating buying one is taking his time to make the right decision while being smart about it, weighting out the options, etc. and it's different than buying one and then hating it afterwards. Maybe that isn't the case but when that's all you see, that's the impression you get.

I'll say that I think the car is more overhyped than dissed, this is why it will never meet the expectations: they are unrealistic. If you ignore the hype, then it's a fascinating car with some irritating solutions to issues also invented by Tesla. That said, I have to say, I've never driven >300 miles before, without feeling landsick (sense of persistent motion lasting hours after getting off a plane/car). I had zero landsickness with the Tesla, and this is probably not secondary to the refueling stops, because I've gotten landsick with my I3 too after longer trips.

TBH, the only person whose opinion I accept as authority on the build quality is an old automotive engineer friend of mine who happened to work on fixing those notorious Model X doors (not a fan...).

 

[DT]

I'll say that I think the car is more overhyped than dissed, this is why it will never meet the expectations: they are unrealistic.

That's a big reason why I'm exceptionally pleased, I knew how to correctly set my expectations:

They were high in terms of performance/drivetrain, charging, continuous updates and improvements, audio - expectations exceeded.

They were moderate, cautiously hopeful in terms of QA/BQ, and to quote Peter Venkman, "... call it ... fate, call it luck, call it karma ...", I got a solid car - expectations met.

They were ambivalent about AP/FSD, etc., all the automated driving type tech, because that's just not for me - N/A


***


I did finally get enough charging, plug in my rates, etc., and get some stats, pretty cool:

And there's a big value for me in terms of convenience, not dealing with a gas station, etc.

 

[Eric]

I did finally get enough charging, plug in my rates, etc., and get some stats, pretty cool:

And there's a big value for me in terms of convenience, not dealing with a gas station, etc.

The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.

The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.

 

[DT]

The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.

The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.

It's probably the biggest flip for me, I knew the car would be quick, quiet, etc., but admittedly, I had a lot of charging and range anxiety going into this, hahaha, now it's such a non-issue, I regret not doing it sooner

 

[Citysnaps]

I'm new to EVs and might be considering an Ioniq 5 in the future. Pretty sure I'll be OK regarding range anxiety living in the SF Bay Area, and taking an occasional long trip.

Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later? Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[User.45]

I'm new to EVs and might be considering an Ioniq 5 in the future. Pretty sure I'll be OK regarding range anxiety living in the SF Bay Area, and taking an occasional long trip.

Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later? Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?

Thanks for any insight!

I've gotten towed more times than I like (3 or 4 times, mostly flat tires). Flatbed needed, at least for the i3. The cars are generally more reliable and require less maintenance than gas cars. I think the only difference is in extreme colds.

 

[User.45]

The biggest benefit by far, there's nothing like coming home, pugging in and never worrying about gas stations again. Even on longer drives I rarely have to stop to charge but when I do it's only 6 to 12 minutes to get me back to my garage which is nothing.

The cost savings on fuel and convenience of this car has exceeded my expectations.

It's probably the biggest flip for me, I knew the car would be quick, quiet, etc., but admittedly, I had a lot of charging and range anxiety going into this, hahaha, now it's such a non-issue, I regret not doing it sooner

I've been driving around for free for 5 years now, LOL. I got so used to it by now, looking at someone's $13 dollar charging bill makes me shudder. I have free DC fast charging down the corner, and if that's busy, another one 5 blocks down.

 

[DT]

I've been driving around for free for 5 years now, LOL. I got so used to it by now, looking at someone's $13 dollar charging bill makes me shudder. I have free DC fast charging down the corner, and if that's busy, another one 5 blocks down.

Well, I look at the $13 as 550-600 miles - with this level of performance, "refueled" while the car is sitting in the garage - and I can't stop grinning

But free DCFC is pretty sweet, is that something that was bundled with the i3? Or a free public location?

 

[User.45]

Well, I look at the $13 as 550-600 miles - with this level of performance, "refueled" while the car is sitting in the garage - and I can't stop grinning

But free DCFC is pretty sweet, is that something that was bundled with the i3? Or a free public location?

Public. It’s ridiculously underutilized.You can get level 2 at the hospital too, All you need to do is get in earlier than the surgeons. 430am would probably consistently get you a spot.

Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.

 

[DT]

Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.

I'm not sure who the "we" is (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car, [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability, your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.

 

[SuperMatt]

Public. It’s ridiculously underutilized.You can get level 2 at the hospital too, All you need to do is get in earlier than the surgeons. 430am would probably consistently get you a spot.

Not that any of this matters. We are far away from saving actual money on these cars The next 10 years.

It would be nice if they were still selling ones like my Golf for $25K... they were leasing them for $199 a month around here in 2016-17. Everybody is going for the top end of the market right now. The mini cooper EV is the cheapest one I think right now, around $30K

 

[DT]

It would be nice if they were still selling ones like my Golf for $25K... they were leasing them for $199 a month around here in 2016-17. Everybody is going for the top end of the market right now. The mini cooper EV is the cheapest one I think right now, around $30K

Absolutely, manufacturers have got to get more EVs across a wider range of prices (and styles for that matter). I'm less impressed with a car like the new Lucid than I would be vs. a $25K, nicely optioned EV with a 220-230 mile rating.

I think a lot of this will come in the next 2 years with new battery developments, and as large manufacturers start reaching better economies-of-scale.

 

[SuperMatt]

Absolutely, manufacturers have got to get more EVs across a wider range of prices (and styles for that matter). I'm less impressed with a car like the new Lucid than I would be vs. a $25K, nicely optioned EV with a 220-230 mile rating.

I think a lot of this will come in the next 2 years with new battery developments, and as large manufacturers start reaching better economies-of-scale.

I think the increased range increases the price. The Leaf used to be cheaper, then they increased the range 50 miles and the price went up to match. Perhaps batteries are the biggest expense?

 

[DT]

I think the increased range increases the price. The Leaf used to be cheaper, then they increased the range 50 miles and the price went up to match. Perhaps batteries are the biggest expense?

It does, and it's non-trivial, that's why cheaper and better battery tech is pretty critical. Like the new F-150 EV, the extended range is an additional $10K-20K depending on which model you start with, the Rivia R1T, same thing, $10K for the 300 to 400+ mile upgrade.

So batteries need to get cheaper, and better, since more batteries mean more cost, more space/weight, etc. You also want to be able to have smaller cars with good range, and that's limited by the power density in batteries, like a car like a GTI or Focus ST can't have a 150kW battery, there's nowhere to put it (and of course the cost would be insane).

To a certain degree, the range, i.e., battery size/cost/weight is offset by charging infrastructure, so both of things needs to improve, you need less range if you have more places to charge, but there's some point in the middle of chargers on one side / range on the other, where it's a good balance of both, that then has to also be affordable.

 

[Eric]

I'm not sure who the "we" is (maybe it's a royal we ), but since our TM3 is the same price/monthly as the previous car, [slightly] lower insurance, and is currently costing notably less in consumables, I'm definitely spending less money on this vehicle. Whether you do or not really depends on your driving habits, charging costs/availability, your typical car price point and how long you keep a car vs. long term costs.

Same here, I had a higher payment on my BMW 5 series than I do for the Tesla so I'm saving money on both fronts. Though I do get it if one doesn't have a garage, I might question it too because that makes all the difference here. Come home, plug in and forget it is a huge part of the appeal. If I had to park on the street and drive to chargers I would probably think twice about owning one, sure it's still cheaper but it comes with the cost of your time.

 

[SuperMatt]

It does, and it's non-trivial, that's why cheaper and better battery tech is pretty critical. Like the new F-150 EV, the extended range is an additional $10K-20K depending on which model you start with, the Rivia R1T, same thing, $10K for the 300 to 400+ mile upgrade.

So batteries need to get cheaper, and better, since more batteries mean more cost, more space/weight, etc. You also want to be able to have smaller cars with good range, and that's limited by the power density in batteries, like a car like a GTI or Focus ST can't have a 150kW battery, there's nowhere to put it (and of course the cost would be insane).

To a certain degree, the range, i.e., battery size/cost/weight is offset by charging infrastructure, so both of things needs to improve, you need less range if you have more places to charge, but there's some point in the middle of chargers on one side / range on the other, where it's a good balance of both, that then has to also be affordable.

I looked at the solar car linked by @P_X - making EVs lighter and more aerodynamic means you don’t need a huge battery. I mentioned this to somebody yesterday and they said “what if somebody hits your car? It doesn’t seem very safe."

There are a lot of big, heavy vehicles on the road, so perhaps they had a point. But I like the idea of making cars lighter and more efficient.

 

[DT]

I looked at the solar car linked by @P_X - making EVs lighter and more aerodynamic means you don’t need a huge battery. I mentioned this to somebody yesterday and they said “what if somebody hits your car? It doesn’t seem very safe."

There are a lot of big, heavy vehicles on the road, so perhaps they had a point. But I like the idea of making cars lighter and more efficient.

Yeah, there's a lot of opportunities for efficiency improvements:


Batteries - an obvious one, but there's a lot of subitems in this, power density, size, weight, cooling requirements, charging speed

Aerodynamics - lots of options here and it doesn't mean we all have to drive bubbles (per a previous comment, this is the reason Tesla, Lucid, etc., use flush mount door handles), wheels factor in a good bit here too

Tires - rolling resistance is a big factor, and for the owner experience noise, that's why there's a ton of new tire (and wheel) development

Size - yeah, smaller cars! This is very dependent on battery and range and charging infrastructure, and where there majority mindset finally settles on "reasonable range" for a given usage model

 

[SuperMatt]

There is a fairly lengthy article in The Washington Post today about Tesla’s FSD.

https://wapo.st/3Jilhz3

(paywall removed)

 

[Eric]

There is a fairly lengthy article in The Washington Post today about Tesla’s FSD.

https://wapo.st/3Jilhz3

(paywall removed)

First of all, thanks for the link without the paywall. This was a pretty fair piece when you watch the video, they stuck to the facts and pointed out both the good and bad and I have to say for the most part I agreed fully with them. Some use it all the time and work around the glitches while it frustrates others, the bottom line is the technology still has a ways to go but it's slowly getting there.

One of the quotes that really stood out to me was something like "it felt more like I was babysitting the car than the other way around", this was my experience too. It's almost flawless on the freeway though so I have to give them that but in the end the only real difference from AutoPilot is automatic lane changing and that is certainly not worth $200 per month or $12K per year IMO.

 

[DT]

Regarding EV's in general, anybody concerned about breaking down in areas far from home where repairs (whatever that might be) are not available. Get a long distance tow back home and deal with it later? Any issues with towing EVs (flatbed, etc)?

I don't think of it much different vs. an ICE vehicle. If it breaks down completely, it's probably a tow, a service center - Tesla has some kind of road side assistance, right through the car or app, I'd imagine that sort of service model will be become more common since all the new manufacturers like Lucid, Rivian, won't have extensive physical dealer networks.

Then it gets fixed like anything else, er, hopefully

EVs tow like any other car, there's specific lift, hook locations, there's a neutral / tow mode (so it'll roll). There was a post recently about a Mach-E that got expensive damage, tow truck guy hooked into a battery reinforcement brace, but that's just a bad job on the tow company (and they're paying for it).