Electric Vehicles: General topics

throAU said:
Well, new car smell!

Wish we got the prime but hybrid still great!

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So, this is an old model at this point (I deliberately bought the last of the current gen, planning to either upgrade or keep this at the end of 3 years when the EV situation in australia shakes out, and/or the Rav4 plug in hybrid arrives or new model rav4 has had a couple of years for the bugs to shake out), but now I’ve driven it for 1500km and it has had its first check up…

Real world economy (hybrid AWD):

  • mixed: 5L/100km or better (have seen 4.6L on a 45km run to work this morning through fairly heavy traffic). (47mpg US)
  • highway (110km/h brief periods up to 130km/h to overtake): 5.8-5.9L/100km (40.5mpg US). I did a 1000km round-trip to see my parents over easter and laughed when i topped the tank up for the return journey. Combination of lack of fuel consumption plus regular fuel instead of premium high octane = low cost :D
Real world performance (coming from a ute with 500 wheel horses which is “fun but stupid” on the street):

It’s fast enough. Its not a rocket ship, but easily keeps up with traffic, overtakes comfortably, but during the commute is quiet, relaxing and comfortable. Fun fact: its about as quick as a 1990 Toyota Celica GT4 in a straight line! Progress!

Seating is comfortable in the front, comfortable in the back, my mother commented that the back was “like the range rover” (parents have a range rover sport), which in terms of comfort is pretty high praise i think. This one is aussie “cruiser” spec which has real leather.

Comfortably seats 4 with both front occupants 6’ and 6’4" and rear occupants 5’4-5’7"

I’m happy with it! Its probably the most practical, comfortable car I’ve owned.

I know hybrids have been around forever at this point but a lot of people maybe haven’t driven one. Pretty much anything toyota makes now is available in hybrid and IMO very much worth it vs. the regular gas model.


And the kicker (thanks chatgpt)...


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Fixed price servicing of $260/yr, cheaper purchase price, ability to do >1000 km in a day if i want and fill anywhere... much faster queue if there is one at the pump/charger, also much nicer interior than a model 3 (real leather seats, real buttons for HVAC, indicators, etc...)
 
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throAU said:
Fixed price servicing of $260/yr, cheaper purchase price, ability to do >1000 km in a day if i want and fill anywhere... much faster queue if there is one at the pump/charger, also much nicer interior than a model 3 (real leather seats, real buttons for HVAC, indicators, etc...)
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Are you in a location where you can charge at home? If not, the comparison is fair (fast charging is not any cheaper than gas here in the USA either), but charging at home is the real boon with an EV IMO, and that’s where fuel cost savings can come into play as it’s AC charging that is cheap, not the DC fast charging.

I was paying an average of 0.15$ US per mile with my last gas car (Subaru Outback). Charging at home, it’s more like 0.03$ to 0.04$ depending on time of year. So I went from paying around 1400$/year for fuel to 300$/year. So when I have to pay 40-100$ for the fuel on the longer trips? Eh. Now if I was on the road doing long trips all the time, much smaller savings.

But I also pay 0.10$ per kWh at home, while fast charging nearby is 0.48$ for Electrify America while Tesla is 0.26$ off-peak and 0.48$ peak.
 
I just drove 180 miles and got over 4mi/kWh, which is way over EPA spec for my car (which, by the range number, would be ~3.3). But, almost nobody drives the way I do (I was driving an '02 Prius recently and getting over 50mpg on longer trips). It takes some effort to get max efficiency, but once you develop the habits, it becomes second nature.
 
diamond.g said:

So it appears we are going to slide back/more towards the wild west for vehicle autonomy in the states...
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IMO something has to give here though, I had high (maybe too high?) hopes for my Tesla but in the end shut off/stopped using automation entirely because it spent more time watching what I was doing than assisting with driving and it was all due to overregulation.

It's a bit like the drone industry that a few accidents by idiots force extreme regulations. It will never be perfect but it's been way too restrictive for any sort of practical use and they need to lighten up on it.
 
Nycturne said:
Are you in a location where you can charge at home? If not, the comparison is fair (fast charging is not any cheaper than gas here in the USA either), but charging at home is the real boon with an EV IMO, and that’s where fuel cost savings can come into play as it’s AC charging that is cheap, not the DC fast charging.
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Below totally not intended to be combative, etc. - i really did look into EV very seriously but it just doesn't make financial sense in my particular case due to both known depreciation costs and considered risks.

PHEV Toyotas not available here, so I did all the sums on full EV comparison (both Tesla Model Y and Polestar 2 as they were the closest things to what i wanted available in the local full EV lineup). Not going to lie though, even if the Model Y was significantly cheaper i would not buy, can not abide by the interior and UI decisions, Elon, etc.

Works out (for me, my financial situation - YMMV):
~10-15k more expensive or thereabouts for similar car, plus 4k charger install plus the local rate for power = it's a bit of a wash (like $2k cheaper for charging at home vs. paying for fuel on the hybrid when more expensive purchase price is taken into account - AND the lack of tax incentive on the hybrid is also taken into account), but hybrid still comes out in front. Plus i am filled in like 3-5 minutes.

Especially over a 3 year fully novated lease. Additionally, i can pay for gas pre-taxable income (due to salary sacrifice of the entire lease), i can't claim power with the rules as they currently are here. That was based on $2.50/L fuel cost, currently i'm paying about $1.55-1.60/L.

The Toyota retained value vs. EV (of any brand) with very expensive battery replacement cost at 8-10 years anticipated just kills it.

YMMV (depends on charging costs, fuel costs, what you can pay pre-tax, etc.) but the big killers are higher initial purchase price for equal car and depreciation on EV mostly. Tesla for example are a total bloodbath depreciation wise. Based on existing 3-5 yr old RAV4 prices here, I'll probably get 40-45k (purchase 62k) back on this thing after the end of a 3 year lease and the residual is about $26,000.

No way in hell I'll only lose 15k on a Tesla model Y over 3-5 years.


But definitely, 3-5 years down the line i'll be hoping for a PHEV (awaiting 1-3 years into the 2026 RAV4 Prime model refresh) that gives me 100-150km EV range; that will get me to and from work every day (via home charging) with no fuel use and still have the convenience of a regular fill up if i need to do a long trip without any planning required. PHEV having batteries half the size will have much lower battery replacement cost and hopefully much lower depreciation.

Gas/hybrid/PHEV is not going anywhere in Australia in a hurry. We just don't have the chargers available and distances between towns are huge.
 
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May be of interest to those whose media don't cover such things.... interesting cars on display at the Shanghai motor show... china's car market is 30 million vehicles annually, so it's pretty big.

Interesting things you probably have no idea exist from the coverage, social media, etc. you get in the USA - probably Australia's best car reviewer personality covering the show.

Not just Chinese OEMs, but plenty of them shown.

 
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We wouldn't own an EV without having L2 home charging, that's a massive game changer in terms of convenience, and while - for us - the different in "fueling" costs aren't that high on the BEV value proposition. That being said, home charging is a good bit cheaper vs. gas prices around here (about 1/4 the equivalent per mile costs for an SUV in our preferred market segment).

We've got some major life changes coming up, super stoked, it may wind up dropping us to a single vehicle needed, so we will certainly revisit the BEV vs. PHEV/ICE consideration when the times comes (early '27), since it could put us in a "BEV only" situation and it's been nice having a PHEV as the second ride. Lease comes up on the iX in '27 (the Wrangler will be done around Sept/Oct of '26, we may return early after the move, leave it at the BIL's place in NSB, heck, maybe even do a buy/sell if the market is right).

The list of options we'll be considering has grown a bit, because I love what I'm seeing about the Lucid Gravity, and one of my big sticking points, was the service center location, but we'll be close to one after the move, and that also applies to Rivian :)

BMW iX (might consider an M70 this next cycle)
Lucid Gravity
Lucid mid-market SUV (aka the Earth)
Rivian R2
Rivian R1S (3rd gen by '27?)
Scout Traveler

We have the R2 and Scout both on a "day one" reservation, Scout is a bit more TBD, love what we've seen, but we may opt for something more "street" vs. "offroad" oriented. The R2 should be a bit less expensive than the R1, there's supposed to a tri-motor flavor, and just because we'd have more budget with a single vehicle, that doesn't mean we want to overspend if the R2 turns out to be a winner (this applies to the Gravity vs. Earth, which is also a funny thing to write :D )

iX is an easy choice since we love this one, and even just a direct replacement (which is now the iX60) would still provide some nice improvements moving from a '24 to a 26/27.
 
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throAU said:
Below totally not intended to be combative, etc. - i really did look into EV very seriously but it just doesn't make financial sense in my particular case due to both known depreciation costs and considered risks.

PHEV Toyotas not available here, so I did all the sums on full EV comparison (both Tesla Model Y and Polestar 2 as they were the closest things to what i wanted available in the local full EV lineup). Not going to lie though, even if the Model Y was significantly cheaper i would not buy, can not abide by the interior and UI decisions, Elon, etc.

Works out (for me, my financial situation - YMMV):
~10-15k more expensive or thereabouts for similar car, plus 4k charger install plus the local rate for power = it's a bit of a wash (like $2k cheaper for charging at home vs. paying for fuel on the hybrid when more expensive purchase price is taken into account - AND the lack of tax incentive on the hybrid is also taken into account), but hybrid still comes out in front. Plus i am filled in like 3-5 minutes.

Especially over a 3 year fully novated lease. Additionally, i can pay for gas pre-taxable income (due to salary sacrifice of the entire lease), i can't claim power with the rules as they currently are here. That was based on $2.50/L fuel cost, currently i'm paying about $1.55-1.60/L.

The Toyota retained value vs. EV (of any brand) with very expensive battery replacement cost at 8-10 years anticipated just kills it.

YMMV (depends on charging costs, fuel costs, what you can pay pre-tax, etc.) but the big killers are higher initial purchase price for equal car and depreciation on EV mostly. Tesla for example are a total bloodbath depreciation wise. Based on existing 3-5 yr old RAV4 prices here, I'll probably get 40-45k (purchase 62k) back on this thing after the end of a 3 year lease and the residual is about $26,000.

No way in hell I'll only lose 15k on a Tesla model Y over 3-5 years.


But definitely, 3-5 years down the line i'll be hoping for a PHEV (awaiting 1-3 years into the 2026 RAV4 Prime model refresh) that gives me 100-150km EV range; that will get me to and from work every day (via home charging) with no fuel use and still have the convenience of a regular fill up if i need to do a long trip without any planning required. PHEV having batteries half the size will have much lower battery replacement cost and hopefully much lower depreciation.

Gas/hybrid/PHEV is not going anywhere in Australia in a hurry. We just don't have the chargers available and distances between towns are huge.
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My wife and I also considered the above options going forward for the driving we like to do. She's now had her Toyota hybrid for two years. Typiclcal mileage is 38-39 miles per gallon (both highway and city driving). That has worked out pretty well and gives us a range of around 520 miles. I recently purchased a hybrid and is so far yielding around 520 miles of range on a 13 gallon tank of gas.

We're planning a few photo road trips in remote areas of the western US (similar to central Australia, maybe?) during the summer and expect EV charging stations to be on the scarce side in some areas. That pretty much drove the hybrid decision. And not having to worry about charger availability and charging time (including at home).
 
DT said:
We wouldn't own an EV without having L2 home charging, that's a massive game changer in terms of convenience, and while - for us - the different in "fueling" costs aren't that high on the BEV value proposition. That being said, home charging is a good bit cheaper vs. gas prices around here (about 1/4 the equivalent per mile costs for an SUV in our preferred market segment).
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Couldn't agree more, I charge at home 100% of the time now and there's nothing more convenient from coming home from a long day and just plugging in and forgetting about it, then being all ready for the next trip.

Citysnaps said:
My wife and I also considered the above options going forward for the driving we like to do. She's now had her Toyota hybrid for two years. Typiclcal mileage is 38-39 miles per gallon (both highway and city driving). That has worked out pretty well and gives us a range of around 520 miles. I recently purchased a hybrid and is so far yielding around 520 miles of range on a 13 gallon tank of gas.

We're planning a few photo road trips in remote areas of the western US (similar to central Australia, maybe?) during the summer and expect EV charging stations to be on the scarce side in some areas. That pretty much drove the hybrid decision. And not having to worry about charger availability and charging time (including at home).
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This is a wise decision IMO. I tried the EV road trip thing and it was frankly a nightmare for me, even though I thought I had it planned out pretty well is was very different on paper than the real world, I spent as much time charging, waiting, seeking stations than I did vacationing. YMMV but hybrid is a much more sustainable and predictable solution for long trips. Having one ICE and one EV in our household is a perfect solution.
 
Eric said:
Couldn't agree more, I charge at home 100% of the time now and there's nothing more convenient from coming home from a long day and just plugging in and forgetting about it, then being all ready for the next trip.


This is a wise decision IMO. I tried the EV road trip thing and it was frankly a nightmare for me, even though I thought I had it planned out pretty well is was very different on paper than the real world, I spent as much time charging, waiting, seeking stations than I did vacationing. YMMV but hybrid is a much more sustainable and predictable solution for long trips. Having one ICE and one EV in our household is a perfect solution.
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The only nit I can think of is will be the 2040/2035 potential ban on gas-powered cars. I understand California and 11 other states are moving in that direction.

Also... Some auto companies are apparently committing to end the sale of gas powered cars by 2035. It's unclear on PHEVs.

The above seems to be in flux. If all of the above is true, I would guess gas station owners and gasoline suppliers are taking notice, resulting in dwindling volumes going forward, and not being economically feasible staying in business. As hybrids have a gas engine, they'd also be impacted needing gasoline.
 
I used a fast charger yesterday because of mild range anxiety. It gave me about 1kWh, then stopped. I tried 3 ties to get it to run steadily before moving to the one next to it. Charging at home is what I do most of the time, but sometimes I take long trips an need/want to charge on the road.

The present situation with chargers is problematic. You do not want to arrive at one only to discover that it is out of service, or occupied. Sometimes the will be a L2 unit there, but so far, that has been well below what I can make use of on the road.

On the one hand, electricity ships much more easily than gasoline/diesel, but, on the other hand, DCFC, which is what most drivers want, requires non-trivial infrastructure. Still, they usually take up a lot less space than liquid fuel dispensaries, and smell a lot better. There will be a transition, but EVs crossing the majority threshold is probably at least a decade off yet.
 

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