FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

lizkat said:
It's (remotely? certainly?) possible that sealed indictment(s) have already been issued as a result of the raid. We might not know that for some time now though. And neither Trump nor his lawyers nor anyone else outside the prosecutorial team and grand jury would have been notified, barring a leak.
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The simple fact is that we don't know what any of this is about. We don't even know if this could lead to criminal charges once everything is said and done.

The only thing we can say right now is that it looks to be spurred on by the National Archive, and that the FBI conducting a raid of this size for such seems a little extreme. The whole thing is just weird and odd.
 
Renzatic said:
The simple fact is that we don't know what any of this is about. We don't even know if this could lead to criminal charges once everything is said and done.

The only thing we can say right now is that it looks to be spurred on by the National Archive, and that the FBI conducting a raid of this size for such seems a little extreme. The whole thing is just weird and odd.
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Well It's safe enough to say that given past backlash over Comey's time as FBI director, that Chris Wray is not likely to go down some "maybe-over-here" rabbit hole when about to run into the forbearance window.

There's some reason for the urgency, the timing of the effort and the no-leak aspect of it. We're not talking about some torn-up copy of a draft memo on possible withdrawal from some treaty or whatever.

I mean that the national records archivist could not even lawfully DESCRIBE some of the documents that Trump had removed which were subsequently retrieved. So what do we imagine Trump managed to not return? Or why would he keep it, conceal it, not just trash it? How can he imagine no one would figure out what it was anyway, maybe even have viewed it, known it should not have been taken away. Does he realize he can't afford to destroy it? What's even the point ot trying to imagine. We know nothing of some of the information that's classified in the USA and other countries. Not even the shape of it, like the proverbial committee of blind men describing the elephant.

There's only the point that it's not some who-cares thing. Senior pols on the House committee and the head of the DoJ and FBI have put their careers on the line deciding to go for and exercise this search warrant at this time. So they're not looking for the algorithm that the Wordle guy used to pick his infernal base of valid words.

So typical of us Americans (and netizens everywhere now). I include myself, of course. Everything must be dissected in entirety, immediately, lest some opportunity for accusation or blaming or outrage and conspiracy mongering be forever consigned to backwash in the firehosing of the planet by social media.

And it's fun, too. Unless you're the target of investigations getting closer to rolling up the bad guys.
 
Interesting to think about this tweeted excerpt from Carl Sagan's writings over 25 years ago, as the caterwauling ramps up to jet-takeoff decibel levels from Trump's followers and all those Republican pols still trying to coast on his Pied Piper appeal to people made willfully ignorant by Fox and other far right media.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556957427295260673/
 
Herdfan said:
Andrew Yang has a different take on this:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/


And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:

www.washingtontimes.com

Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home

Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
www.washingtontimes.com www.washingtontimes.com
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Well F them. Explanations will be forthcoming or prove unnecessary in the end.

Let all the armchair quarterbacks keep their damn shirts on.

At least during Watergate there were no social media platforms larger than the pub round the corner, and officla news updates occurred only a few times per day.

I mean this is all fascinating but it can make observers feel like they have an active part to play in the investigations taking place. Our part to play was when we elected a President with power to appoint an FBI director and and Attorney General and the Senators to confirm or deny those choices. They were confirmed. Let the DoJ do its work. Does anyone think a judge who was coerced to sign that warrant would not have found a way by now to speak up? No? Then he saw cause, and permitted the warrant.
 
lizkat said:
Well F them. Explanations will be forthcoming or prove unnecessary in the end.

Let all the armchair quarterbacks keep their damn shirts on.

At least during Watergate there were no social media platforms larger than the pub round the corner, and officla news updates occurred only a few times per day.

I mean this is all fascinating but it can make observers feel like they have an active part to play in the investigations taking place. Our part to play was when we elected a President with power to appoint an FBI director and and Attorney General and the Senators to confirm or deny those choices. They were confirmed. Let the DoJ do its work. Does anyone think a judge who was coerced to sign that warrant would not have found a way by now to speak up? No? Then he saw cause, and permitted the warrant.
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Yeah, his supporters will never see it any other way and if you have to cite Yang and Cuomo as the actual opposition then it points to the problem they have.

So far this all appears above board in every way, all the hoops they had to go through to legally obtain the search warrant is playing on all of the major news sources. Who knew it was that involved? I don't see how anyone thinks they would do this on a fishing whim, they have clear and justified reasons.

It's also nice to see this taking place without the sitting president's involvement, he had no idea it was even taking place. They are the DOJ for the people, not the president, and I believe to the general non-Trump fanatic public they come across as credible.
 
Why are people asking the FBI/DoJ to change how they operate just because this guy was the president? He's not the president anymore. If he was anyone else, would the FBI be acting differently? They issue a subpoena - where you willfully turn something over to authorities - or they get a warrant. How many people get courtesy calls from the police or law enforcement telling them they'll be at your house in fifteen minutes to execute a search warrant? "Hey, just a quick heads up, we're on our way over. We've got a warrant for cocaine and stolen guns, so just hang tight and we'll be there in fifteen minutes."

This fat tub of lard is being the treated the exact same way he's demanded others who have done far less than him - in some cases nothing at all - be treated.

These people are pissed off whether Trump's home is searched or they lose an election. They're never happy unless Trump is on Twitter claiming victory for everything. Better to hold him accountable for whatever he's done than nothing.

And we don't even know if this will lead to charges. Could have been a drastic effort to get back documents of great importance and if they get them, that could be it. Who knows. Knowing Trump and his belief he is truly above the law and nothing applies to him, I'm sure he's committed numerous crimes. But this search is not really indicative of an indictment being next. But I'm pretty sure more is coming, because its hard to envision Trump holding these documents for fifteen months just for the hell of it.

And as mentioned, he could easily show what they took from him. He could clear all this up... "They came for a paper-weight model Air Force One and my big, beautiful letter from King Jong Un, and they stole my favorite putter and a letter Ivanka wrote me when she was 5! Here's the proof!"

He won't show any proof, because it will show what they were after and what they took. No, selling this to his base as "the deep state and radical dems are on a witch hunt the likes of which this country has never seen before. Send me some cash so I can defeat them!"
 
GermanSuplex said:
Why are people asking the FBI/DoJ to change how they operate just because this guy was the president? He's not the president anymore. If he was anyone else, would the FBI be acting differently? They issue a subpoena - where you willfully turn something over to authorities - or they get a warrant. How many people get courtesy calls from the police or law enforcement telling them they'll be at your house in fifteen minutes to execute a search warrant? "Hey, just a quick heads up, we're on our way over. We've got a warrant for cocaine and stolen guns, so just hang tight and we'll be there in fifteen minutes."

This fat tub of lard is being the treated the exact same way he's demanded others who have done far less than him - in some cases nothing at all - be treated.

These people are pissed off whether Trump's home is searched or they lose an election. They're never happy unless Trump is on Twitter claiming victory for everything. Better to hold him accountable for whatever he's done than nothing.

And we don't even know if this will lead to charges. Could have been a drastic effort to get back documents of great importance and if they get them, that could be it. Who knows. Knowing Trump and his belief he is truly above the law and nothing applies to him, I'm sure he's committed numerous crimes. But this search is not really indicative of an indictment being next. But I'm pretty sure more is coming, because its hard to envision Trump holding these documents for fifteen months just for the hell of it.

And as mentioned, he could easily show what they took from him. He could clear all this up... "They came for a paper-weight model Air Force One and my big, beautiful letter from King Jong Un, and they stole my favorite putter and a letter Ivanka wrote me when she was 5! Here's the proof!"

He won't show any proof, because it will show what they were after and what they took. No, selling this to his base as "the deep state and radical dems are on a witch hunt the likes of which this country has never seen before. Send me some cash so I can defeat them!"
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Here's a crazy concept: nobody should be above the law.
 
lizkat said:
My sentiments exactly after seeing that the House Judiciary GOP account had tweeted this:

"If they can do it to a former President, imagine what they can do to you."​

My reaction was hell yeah, about time equality under the law showed up.
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This defense is mind-boggling. How many times in your life have you read about the FBI or US Marshals executing warrants or seizures? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Could be a drug dealer, a sex trafficker, a money launderer, a politician…

I’m reminded of Peter Navarro who after getting out of jail after being arrested seemed in shock that he was put in handcuffs and booked on charges. Yeah, that’s what happens when you’re arrested.

I truly don’t get how this argument appeals to anyone, unless they’re a wealthy conservative politician who broke the law to help Trump. Then I’d be worried that “it can happen to me too”. But for the rest of the 99.99% of us… that’s kind of why we obey the laws. It already can happen to us, and certainly will.
 
GermanSuplex said:
This defense is mind-boggling. How many times in your life have you read about the FBI or US Marshals executing warrants or seizures? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Could be a drug dealer, a sex trafficker, a money launderer, a politician…

I’m reminded of Peter Navarro who after getting out of jail after being arrested seemed in shock that he was put in handcuffs and booked on charges. Yeah, that’s what happens when you’re arrested.

I truly don’t get how this argument appeals to anyone, unless they’re a wealthy conservative politician who broke the law to help Trump. Then I’d be worried that “it can happen to me too”. But for the rest of the 99.99% of us… that’s kind of why we obey the laws. It already can happen to us, and certainly will.
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Yes and for a lot of us steeped in recent politics, the whole thing about the FBI raising people's hackles may hark back only to maybe Clinton in 2016, with Comey dropping his remarks 11 days before the election. But right-leaning pols pitching to Trump cultists today do know that there's an anti-fed law enforcement attitude on the populist right and among some lefties as well that goes back decades.

That includes FBI, ATF, US Marshals. National Guard, even incidents with the US military, e.g., tragedies like the 1992 Ruby Ridge incident, and the siege at Waco in 1993... some of the behavior of FBI et al federal law enforcement during the Vietnam War protests and in the social unrest in the late 60s and 70s, including the '68 Dem convention in Chicago and the 1970 Kent State killings by young National Guardsmen.

So these Rs now are playing to that lingering anti-Fed "rogue" law enforcement attitude and pitching what was an unusual but warranted search as instead some kind of hoked-up and persecutory assault on personal freedom that could happen to you or me in the wee hours before dawn tomorrow.

The talking points are obviously selling well on social media, which has gone into overdrive on outrage.

Thing to remember though is that some ten or twenty thousand loud social media posters are not the 325 million residents of the USA. I should think there are a lot of people now keeping their own counsel about what to think of Trump and the DoJ and the House investigations at this point. A lot of them are weary of the endless scandals and drama. That could cut either way this fall in the voting booths.

The other thing to remember is that these Trump-touting pols in the GOP are deeply linked now to him by their own craven choice and cowardice, so they're naturally enough afraid if he goes down, so will they, even if only to electoral defeat and not to criminal charges. But some probably (and probably should) also fear the latter. A lot of the bluster from some of those pols is meant to mask that fear. Do the feds have something on them? Does Trump? How many House seats could be in jeopardy down the road when things start to unravel? Will Senators be affected too? They don't know, so they're freaking out.
 
Herdfan said:
Andrew Yang has a different take on this:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/


And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:

www.washingtontimes.com

Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home

Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
www.washingtontimes.com www.washingtontimes.com
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All they need to do is ask TFG. He has the subpoena and the list of documents the FBI wanted. The fact that he (TFG) is not sharing tells us all we need to know. You’d think Yang and Cuomo would both know this.
 
Herdfan said:
Andrew Yang has a different take on this:

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1556987104219090945/


And even Andrew Cuomo wants more answers:

www.washingtontimes.com

Andrew Cuomo joins Republicans’ call for answers in FBI raid of Trump home

Former New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday joined Republicans demanding FBI Director Christopher Wray and Attorney General Merrick Garland explain why federal agents raided former President Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.
www.washingtontimes.com www.washingtontimes.com
Click to expand...
What’s your take on it?

As has been pointed out, this wasn’t a raid - it was the execution of a lawful search warrant, the issuance of which must have required scrutiny like no other in history. If there were highly classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, even if Trump was unaware (which I doubt), was that not sufficient?

Trump is constantly playing the victim, a stance his supporters also adopt with no logic or question. Should he not be held accountable under the law for fear of enraging his “base,” which now includes much of the Republican Party? Is there a line even he can’t cross in their minds?

Does anyone believe Republicans will exercise any restraint going after Democrats if they regain power, no matter how minor or unfounded the ostensible infraction?
 
If Republicans could just give a straight answer when asked if the former president should be above the same laws that the rest of the American people must adhere to that would be great.
 
I hope in preparation for this the FBI has also been stepping up its surveillance of right-wing extremist groups. Considering how long it's taken to get here I think it's safe to say the government has thought about a lot of potential fallout. I'm part of the belief that whatever initial fallout this causes is far less damaging than doing nothing.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ony-investigation-news?smid=nytcore-ios-share
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...vestigation-news?referringSource=articleShare


Remember what trump said about people who invoke the fifth?

Trump declines to answer questions in New York deposition, invoking his right against self-incrimination.​

Donald J. Trump declined to answer questions from the New York state attorney general’s office on Wednesday, a stunning gamble in a high-stakes legal interview that is likely to determine the course of a civil investigation into his company’s business practices.

In a statement released shortly after the questioning began on Wednesday, Mr. Trump said he would invoke his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, explaining that he “declined to answer the questions under the rights and privileges afforded to every citizen under the United States Constitution.”

After the deposition began, two sources with knowledge of the matter confirmed that he was refusing to answer questions, citing the Fifth Amendment.
“I once asked, ‘If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?’” he said in the statement. “Now I know the answer to that question.” He said that having been targeted by lawyers, prosecutors and the news media had left him with “no choice.”
But there are other reasons Mr. Trump may have decided not to answer questions. The Manhattan district attorney’s office has been conducting a parallel criminal investigation into whether Mr. Trump fraudulently inflated valuations of his properties. Any misstep from the former president in his deposition could breathe new life into that inquiry.
 

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