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I imagine that would be the result. But, I'm guessing an attack would instead be against their military assets that could be used offensively against other countries.
Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel
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I imagine that would be the result. But, I'm guessing an attack would instead be against their military assets that could be used offensively against other countries.
I believe it’s mainly their export facilities as they mainly export crude and have limited refining capabilities to the point they need to import refined oil- unless that’s changed in recent times.
I would think it depends on how things unfolded. For example, if Iranian proxies continue attacking US bases, I could see the US blowing up anywhere from a symbolic strike causing negligible damage, to damaging a significant percentage of their capabilities, to wiping it all out.
Going after military targets in many respects would be much more provocative- especially if it’s clear it’s well beyond a symbolic strike or a proportional response to a previous military interaction.
Striking a military target on their home turf for any other reason than to indicate a war has started, given the current tensions, seems extremely dangerous and could be easily be miscalculated. Therefore In think a military strike in Iran would be unlikely unless we’re going to war.
Hitting a navy vessel could also be an option as a warning. It wouldn’t make sense to start war hitting a ship with no other indications.
The problem with blowing up Iran’s oil industry is that it will harm the US and our partners. Iran exports a significant amount of global oil which isn’t great considering we’re also trying to harm Russia’s economy via their oil exports. Iran and Russia being partners I suppose could cause Russia to reduce production/exports. And this would be a great benefit to Venezuela, who just got some sanctions lifted by Biden- maybe expecting upcoming problems?
I’d also wonder how much effect it would really have. Under normal circumstances I would assume takes years to build their export facility. In the event its destroyed, focusing resources, it would be much faster. Look at Germany after Nordstream. To build new a new LNG import terminal for ships normally would take 5+ years- they did it in less than 1 year.
I sense the Biden admin would be very reluctant to take ANY military actions that l could possibly escalate things. He along with the Obama admin generally seemed very risk adverse. Whereas Trump probably would have already ordered a spectacle of a response
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Amidst all the discussion about attacking Iranian or other targets, I can't help but despair about the continued loss of life in Gaza, including from the most recent hit on a large refugee camp. That doesn't minimize the brutality of Hamas' actions on October 7, but it's impossible to look away from the death and injury to hundreds, maybe thousands of children. I believe Israel has taken out many Hamas operatives and leaders, but their stated goal of wiping them out completely will have a steady increase in associated civilian casualties.
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I should have been more clear up above in that a US response would be predicated on a direct Iranian offensive attack on Americans or US assets in the Persian Gulf, or elsewhere.
For example... if Iran were to launch one or more missiles against any of the carrier task force ships, US/UK Rivet Joint or Guardrail surveillance aircraft, etc. I suspect we'd respond militarily against Iranian military assets; starting with their air defense systems and then their offensive systems (missiles, aircraft etc).
I don't think the US would attack any Iranian petroleum facilities as that could have an adverse impact on world oil markets.
mac_in_tosh
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No doubt other goals include a return of the >200 hostages and an end to missiles be fired into civilian areas in Israel, both of which are up to Hamas.
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I do not envy anyone who is involved in this - the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians, the soldiers, officials in countries around the world.
Anyone who wants peace and has decision-making capabilities is someone who's shoes I would not want to be in.
There's a lot of stuff in politics and world affairs where I'm quite certain a McDonald's employee or night janitor crew could handle better than our elected officials - no offense to fast food workers or janitors. But this is not one of those situations. I'm truly shocked at the brutality and the fact we're fighting ancient religious wars and dealing with hatred like this in 2023.
Which in turn breeds a new generation of terrorists. How many young Palestinians or others in Gaza have lost parents, children, siblings, etc. - or entire families - and will grow up with a deep-seated hatred? Probably way too many.
Like I said, I'm at a loss on this one. Just sad to see it happen and glad I'm not there, or in charge of anything.
Anyone who wants peace and has decision-making capabilities is someone who's shoes I would not want to be in.
There's a lot of stuff in politics and world affairs where I'm quite certain a McDonald's employee or night janitor crew could handle better than our elected officials - no offense to fast food workers or janitors. But this is not one of those situations. I'm truly shocked at the brutality and the fact we're fighting ancient religious wars and dealing with hatred like this in 2023.
Which in turn breeds a new generation of terrorists. How many young Palestinians or others in Gaza have lost parents, children, siblings, etc. - or entire families - and will grow up with a deep-seated hatred? Probably way too many.
Like I said, I'm at a loss on this one. Just sad to see it happen and glad I'm not there, or in charge of anything.
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An interesting view I heard earlier, if Hamas was in Isreal holding Israeli hostages would Isreal's response be the same? Blowing up entire blocks they believe Hamas is hiding in? I think that would be a solid fuck no.
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That’s a stupid hypothetical. If it was in Israel, they would have ways of killing or capturing the Hamus dude without blowing him up. They could send in a swat team, for example. They can’t do that in Gaza, at least not until they control the streets.
mac_in_tosh
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Where are the protests about this humanitarian crisis, sending people into the clutches of the Taliban?
Pakistan's plan to expel over 1 million Afghans living in the country illegally
Pakistan set a Nov. 1 deadline for all foreigners without legal documents, including more than a million Afghans to leave the country or face forcible expulsion.
Pakistan announced the Wednesday deadline on Oct. 3, giving more than a million people about four weeks to move.
It seems that the threshold for outrage depends on whether or not the culprits share your belief system.
Pakistan's plan to expel over 1 million Afghans living in the country illegally
Pakistan set a Nov. 1 deadline for all foreigners without legal documents, including more than a million Afghans to leave the country or face forcible expulsion.
Pakistan announced the Wednesday deadline on Oct. 3, giving more than a million people about four weeks to move.
It seems that the threshold for outrage depends on whether or not the culprits share your belief system.
I’m sad, but not that surprised. Antisemitism is always there. It bubbles up at times like this, though probably not to this extent. We Jews and Jewish organizations are more fearful than in years, worrying whether somebody will shoot up a synagogue, community center, or other place where we gather.
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Jewish and Muslim hate are both up, at las I heard that. Just don’t think of Israel as innocent victims. There is some karma involved. Not defending Hamas, just looking at the last 40 years with my eyes open. Not accusing you of having eyes closed.
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Hamas leader shows why no cease-fire is possible if Israel is to survive
It’s a fight to the death: Either Hamas is destroyed. Or Israel is — even it requires the death not just of every Israeli, but every Palestinian too.
nypost.com
Pretty much gives you all the answers.
Karma implies a cause-and-effect relationship, in this case suggesting that Israel deserves or at least shouldn't be surprised by what Hamas did on October 7. But Hamas didn't attack Israel in response to Israeli policies or actions. They have no interest in a two-state or other political solution or, for that matter, in improving the lives of the Gazan Palestinians they supposedly govern. Their goal is to wipe Israel off the map.
mac_in_tosh
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Consequences of karma come down to what starting point you adopt. So someone could say Hamas is a result of Palestinian desperation due to Israeli policies. But then someone could say that those policies are a result of past Palestinian violence. Etc. all the way to the beginning. So let's go to the beginning.
Jews had lived in the region throughout history. When Israel was founded the majority of Israelis were of Middle Eastern origin, in contrast to the usual picture painted of strictly European colonization. Yes, many Jews came from Europe but the early settlers bought land - there was no Israeli Defense Force capable of taking anything from Arabs. Jews were attacked before there was any occupation or settlements in the West Bank. The Arabs didn't need those current rationales for violence. After Israel was established, tens of thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab lands where they had a presence for hundreds of years. Somehow the usual hate Israel crowd never mentions this inconvenient case of "ethnic cleansing."
I don't like the current leadership in Israel as Netanyahu seems very Trump-like. And there are religious and right wing fanatics with extreme views vis a vis the Palestinians. But, as one might invoke karma to explain Hamas, one could invoke karma based on all the past violence directed toward Israel to explain them. See what I mean?
Before I check the news I hope to see that there is at least a ceasefire, humanitarian aid is allowed into Gaza and the hostages are released but I despair that there is no real solution to the conflict. While many well-meaning people advocate for two states, as @Alli posted above that is not what Hamas is fighting for.
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Yeah it gives the answer of why Hamas does Not deserve to exist, ZERO justification for how Israel is going about achieving this goal.Hamas leader shows why no cease-fire is possible if Israel is to survive
It’s a fight to the death: Either Hamas is destroyed. Or Israel is — even it requires the death not just of every Israeli, but every Palestinian too.
Pretty much gives you all the answers.
Yes, Hamas declared war on all of Israel, and Israel declared war on all Palestinians. Kill all Hamas but killing all of the Palestinians who can’t get out of way fast enough is inexcusable, indiscriminate slaughter.
You are never going to make me feel guilty, because I criticize how Israel chooses to murder Palestinians because Israel‘s feels it’s reason for indiscriminate slaughter is more justified.
“But we are justified In turning Gaza into a giant graveyard and the collateral. Too bad, so sad, they made their choice. They chose to be born Palestinian, they chose for decades to live as second class citizens, constantly subjected to one sided security rules that benefited Israel. And now in its security interests, Israel picks what it deems as a Hamas target, and everyone trapped close to that rat maze is expendible. They chose right?“
There have been people who have recently raised the Hamas attack as the new Holocaust. I’ll remind you all that in WWII when a couple of villagers in an occupied German village, ambushed and killed some German soldiers, the Germans marched out 10-30 villagers and executed them. In fact one village, they killed all the residents of French Village. Pretty heinous huh?
My view is when you have zero regard for civilians, you tell people to evacuate who have no where to go, you give them safe places to go, and then those places are bombed, you prevent people from getting water, civilian wounded, getting care because the electricity is shut down, and prevent humanitarian supplies from getting though, declaring by your actions that all Palestine are expendable until you feel safe again. Who is playing the defacto Germans today?
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You are familiar of with how Israel was created, and at whose expense and the relationship they have had with their neighbors ever since their creation? Palestinians have been treated as second class citizens for as long as I can remember for the sake of Israel security. Israel has blatantly expanded settlements into Palestinian areas just because they have to might to do so. There is plenty of bad Karma here.
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The root of all Israel’s problems with peaceful coexistence has to go back to it’s creation:
During the creation of Israel, other safer, less conflicted areas were offered up. I’d have to pull the article, but I believe, Africa, Russia, Canada, and Australia. But they chose the hornets nest, the place were the Palestinians did not want to give up half their land (controlled by England), the place where the surrounding countries threatened immediate war
My understanding (please correct me) is that Israel leadership indicated they wanted Palestine, the UK did not want to because they did not want to upset relations with regional Arabs, but gave into the UN (US, UK, Russia?)
Today Israel has turned it control of the lands involved from 50% to something like 77% of Palestine. All though the 1990s-2000s, I reads lots second class Palestinian citizen articles, in the name of Israel security. There is Karma here, and reaping what you sew.
And I probably have to say it again, what Hamas did was over the top, a compete and utter outrage, a group of Arabs who said we’ve had enough, Fuck You!
But if any of you are, just stop pretending that Israel saying fuck all Palestinians by indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Palestinians near any of their justified targets as a response, is the civil, human, thing to do, locking them up in a kill box, cutting off food, water, electricity to hospitals, and I’m talking about collateral damage, women and children, that used to mean something. that used to be a fucking standard.
This is the responsible way to strike back or it the kill them all answer? It turns my stomach, just as much as the original attacks did. Two war crimes don’t make a right…
Btw what of reports that Israel Intel received multiple warnings from various sources and Bebe decided his vacation was more important?
My impression is Bebe said “this my chance for the big war”, and here we are.
mac_in_tosh
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They chose the place where they had been for centuries. Do you really think an Israel in Africa would be any safer, considering how there are attacks against Christians there. And Russia? Please. A country with a history of pogroms. Just look at what happened at that airport recently when a mob thought there might be an Israeli on a plane that had landed.
Yes, the area has increased. The Six Day War against Israel resulted in large numbers of refugees and resulted in territories coming under Israeli rule. So what do you expect a country to do? Turn around and return the territories so they can be more easily attacked again.
One might also understand Israel saying we've had enough of being attacked and our people slaughtered.
"Indiscriminate" and being near a justified target is a contradiction. Hamas fired thousands of missiles into Israel, and continues to do so, intentionally trying to kill as many civilians as possible. They launch the missiles from rooftops in populated areas. Do you actually expect any country in the world to sit back and allow that to happen without taking action? Really, tell us what you expect Israel to do in this situation. And before you put an unrealistic burden on Israel, how about Hamas stop firing missiles and return the hostages? I think a ceasefire would soon follow.
Really, I'm not usually in the position of defending Israel because, as I've said, I don't like the right wing government there. But
I just don't go along with the demonization of Israel when they are facing a fanatical religious movement whose goal is to destroy it. And
let's face it, it's religion that's the cause of this conflict, as it has been for most of the world throughout history. Sunni vs Shite, Catholic vs Protestant, etc. but that's a whole other topic.
You say "Israel leadership" (by which I suppose you mean the Jews, who've never been monolithic in opinion, but I digress) chose Israel when they could have settled in Africa, Russia, Canada, or Australia. Ask the first nations people in the two Commonwealth countries you mentioned how well that worked out for them. Do you honestly think Jews housed in enclaves in Russia, Africa, or anyplace else would have fared better?The root of all Israel’s problems with peaceful coexistence has to go back to it’s creation:
During the creation of Israel, other safer, less conflicted areas were offered up. I’d have to pull the article, but I believe, Africa, Russia, Canada, and Australia. But they chose the hornets nest, the place were the Palestinians did not want to give up half their land (controlled by England), the place where the surrounding countries threatened immediate war
My understanding (please correct me) is that Israel leadership indicated they wanted Palestine, the UK did not want to because they did not want to upset relations with regional Arabs, but gave into the UN (US, UK, Russia?)
Today Israel has turned it control of the lands involved from 50% to something like 77% of Palestine. All though the 1990s-2000s, I reads lots second class Palestinian citizen articles, in the name of Israel security. There is Karma here, and reaping what you sew.
And I probably have to say it again, what Hamas did was over the top, a compete and utter outrage, a group of Arabs who said we’ve had enough, Fuck You!
But if any of you are, just stop pretending that Israel saying fuck all Palestinians by indiscriminately slaughtering any and all Palestinians near any of their justified targets as a response, is the civil, human, thing to do, locking them up in a kill box, cutting off food, water, electricity to hospitals, and I’m talking about collateral damage, women and children, that used to mean something. that used to be a fucking standard.
This is the responsible way to strike back or it the kill them all answer? It turns my stomach, just as much as the original attacks did. Two war crimes don’t make a right…
Btw what of reports that Israel Intel received multiple warnings from various sources and Bebe decided his vacation was more important?
Any why do you believe the Jewish people would have felt secure in any foreign territory when they've faced persecution and expulsion throughout recorded history, culminating in the murder of six million Jews in the years leading up to the founding of the State of Israel, where they had ties dating back thousands of years?
I've repeatedly decried the injury and death of innocent Palestinians in the current Hamas-Israel war, though some casualties are inevitable because Hamas is embedded amongst the Gazan population. Hamas has no regard for them - their sole objective is for Israel not to exist. I also don't support the proliferation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank or Netanyahu's policies. Both Israelis and Palestinians would be much better off with a partitioning into two sovereign states, but that would require someone with whom to meaningfully negotiate. And that isn't Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other terrorist organization.