Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

Huntn said:
...it alarms me to the core that a people with this history could so easily dehumanize Palestinians and rationalize their wholesale murder for their imagined self security. šŸ˜”
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What a loaded sentence. With all the wars Israel has endured, starting after partition, the Six Day War, The Yom Kippur War, etc. and Hamas' recent attack (with casualties that would amount proportionally to tens of thousands of Americans) it's more than imagined security. How easy it is to armchair quarterback from a safe location.

And if you want to talk about dehumanization, read Arab literature about Jews and Israelis. I think you want to at least explain Hamas' violence toward Israel based on past actions, but you don't seem to extend the same reasoning when it comes to Israel i.e. despite an almost endless list of attacks on its people even before there was any Israeli Defense Force, any occupation or any settlements. It's as if you believe Israelis to be superior to Palestinians in that they should be able to overcome a natural human response to years of conflict whereas the Palestinians are incapable of doing so.

Anyhow, I thought you were stepping away from this discussion. ;)
 
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mac_in_tosh said:
Yes it was covered in the new, but to my point were there protests in the Arab street and in college campuses? I think the answer is no.
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More speculation here...

I think, in general, people are less prone to protest against terrorist groups such as Hamas, ISIS, al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, etc. Perhaps because they're not easily held accountable or brought to justice.

Unlike countries, they're not bound by international rules that govern armed conflict. And, there's little chance of encouraging terrorists to change their ways though protests. They're on a mission that likely won't be influenced by protesters demonstrating with signs.

Governments, otoh, ideally are held to a much higher standard than terrorists. And are expected to respect Geneva Conventions, International Humanitarian Law, Laws of War, etc. As a result they can be influenced (or even brought to justice) if it's believed they're not acting according to such standards and laws.
 
Citysnaps said:
Unlike countries, they're not bound by international rules that govern armed conflict
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That would seem to me to be all the more reason to protest.

Anyhow, let's be frank - people won't protest even horrific actions when it's their team members that are committing them.
 
You have two sides - the Israelis and the Palestinians - who both want the same thing, which is a land of their own to live in peace. And the infiltration of radical terrorists causes the Israelis to clamp down, which breeds dissent and resentment amongst the Palestinians, which breeds animosity towards Israelis and helps recruit more fanatics.

A no win situation as long as people with no moral compass are in the region igniting the flames of conflict.
 
GermanSuplex said:
You have two sides - the Israelis and the Palestinians - who both want the same thing, which is a land of their own to live in peace. And the infiltration of radical terrorists causes the Israelis to clamp down, which breeds dissent and resentment amongst the Palestinians, which breeds animosity towards Israelis and helps recruit more fanatics.

A no win situation as long as people with no moral compass are in the region igniting the flames of conflict.
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Itā€™s an understatement to say that the people igniting the flames of conflict have no moral compass, at least when referring to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Not recognizing Israelā€™s right to exist and being willing to intentionally kill and kidnap civilians goes way beyond that. I agree with you that most Israelis and Palestinians want to live peacefully, as we all do, but that wonā€™t be possible until itā€™s not up to terrorists and their sponsors like Iran.
 
Huntn said:
And while I sincerely hope not all Jews agree with Israelā€™s current path in Gaza
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Dude. Youā€™re being more than disengenuine here, since you have heard (right here in the forums!) from all the Jewish members that we do not agree with the Israeli government. However, we struggle to offer a solution that wouldnā€™t result in the anihilation of Israel. You are so focused on the civilians in Gaza, that you fail to see a cease fire would only happen from within Israel. The firing would continue from Hamas.
mac_in_tosh said:
Interesting short video: Israeli Arab educates pro-Palestinian woke student

I don't like the use of the word woke here, but the guy counters the claim that Israel is an "apartheid"state. The student feels she is doing the right thing but she is apparently clueless.
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That was a great video. Itā€™s a shame the student volunteer was so clueless. Iā€™d like to see him explain to a larger audience. I can think of a number of people who need to hear this, cause they donā€™t hear it when I say it.
 
Alli said:
Dude. Youā€™re being more than disengenuine here, since you have heard (right here in the forums!) from all the Jewish members that we do not agree with the Israeli government. However, we struggle to offer a solution that wouldnā€™t result in the anihilation of Israel. You are so focused on the civilians in Gaza, that you fail to see a cease fire would only happen from within Israel. The firing would continue from Hamas.
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I don't know who said it, but went something like:

If Hamas set down its guns, there would be no war, but if Israel set down its guns, there would be no Israel.
 
Huntn said:
Iā€™ll give you an analogy: in a neighborhood of 4 Jewish Homes and 6 Arab Homes, members of an Arab family enter Jewish home and murder all of the occupants. The next day 5 of the Arab Homes are found to be smoking ruins, all of the occupants dead.
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Herdfan said:
I would ask if the members of the other 5 Arab homes would be killing the occupants of the other 3 Jewish homes. I think in this case, the answer is YES!
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IMO we should be careful about blanket statements like this, in this example the members of the other 5 Arab homes have done nothing wrong and in no way does it justify their slaughter based on what they may or may not support.

I would like to see Israel take a more surgical and methodical approach personally. That said we know Hamas will not let up no matter what so a ceasefire seems like it will never happen, they have and will sacrifice innocent Palestinians to hide behind which is sad but I'm not sure how you get around that.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
That would seem to me to be all the more reason to protest.

Anyhow, let's be frank - people won't protest even horrific actions when it's their team members that are committing them.
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I'm confused. Assuming you mean horrific actions committed by terrorists, it's a given team members (ie other terrorists) would not be protesting.

If you mean countries/governments committing horrific actions, "team members," assuming you mean citizens of those countries, that's different. And happens when needed. US citizens protesting against and holding accountable the US government recklessly carpet bombing Vietnamese citizens during the Vietnam war comes to mind.
 
Eric said:
I would like to see Israel take a more surgical and methodical approach personally.
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Same here. I can't believe there's no way to deal with terrorists lurking in underground tunnels other than destroying innocent civilians who happen to be in a hospital/refuge camp/home/theater/mosque/etc above ground on top.

Edit: And... if the US were in the same situation, and used the same method to eradicate terrorists from tunnels, you can bet there would be massive protests and demonstrations by US citizens. We don't have a problem of holding our government accountable when required/necessary.
 
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Citysnaps said:
Same here. I can't believe there's no way to deal with terrorists lurking in underground tunnels other than destroying innocent civilians who happen to be in a hospital/refuge camp/home/theater/mosque/etc above ground on top.
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This seems to be the Hamas playbook, hide behind and under civilians while launching missile attacks. They are the worst type of people humanity has to offer, Israel has been clear all along that they'll do whatever it takes to get to them. I don't think anyone wants to sanction the slaughter of innocent people, either, at the same time Hamas has made it clear they'll sacrifice them to further their cause.
 
Eric said:
This seems to be the Hamas playbook, hide behind and under civilians while launching missile attacks. They are the worst type of people humanity has to offer, Israel has been clear all along that they'll do whatever it takes to get to them. I don't think anyone wants to sanction the slaughter of innocent people, either, at the same time Hamas has made it clear they'll sacrifice them to further their cause.
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For sure it's a tough problem. OTOH, in the past, Israel has demonstrated its resourcefulness in dealing with terrorists without needing to kill innocent people.
 
No win situation. When people who disregard the lives of the people they hide amongst and make it a mission to kill others, one side has to fight back. Israel will be accused of doing nothing in one respect and disregarding life if they keep bombing. You canā€™t disregard Palestinian life, but you canā€™t continue to let terrorist groups fester.
 
This is good read on the subject. Apparently there was an Hamas commander that was the target of the bombing that destroyed a refuge camp in Gaza occupying an entire city block. And killing more than 110 people. It was not disclosed how many were maimed/injured. It appears the International Criminal Court is monitoring the conflict in general.

 
Citysnaps said:
I'm confused. Assuming you mean horrific actions committed by terrorists, it's a given team members (ie other terrorists) would not be protesting.

If you mean countries/governments committing horrific actions, "team members," assuming you mean citizens of those countries, that's different. And happens when needed. US citizens protesting against and holding accountable the US government recklessly carpet bombing Vietnamese citizens during the Vietnam war comes to mind.
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In some cases "team members" means co-religionists.
 
Citysnaps said:
This is good read on the subject. Apparently there was an Hamas commander that was the target of the bombing that destroyed a refuge camp in Gaza occupying an entire city block. And killing more than 110 people. It was not disclosed how many were maimed/injured. It appears the International Criminal Court is monitoring the conflict in general.

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I think at this point we need to take any reports about either side with some degree of skepticism and wait for clarity. Case in point is the recent explosion near the hospital. After the initial reports that it was an Israeli strike on the hospital, other reports came out that it was an errant Hamas missile that landed in a courtyard next to the hospital.

And I certainly wouldn't believe anything Hamas says. In a recent interview, a Hamas spokesman denied that the Oct. 7 intrusion targeted civilians. Upon the interviewer's persistent questioning and presenting of evidence, the spokesman took off his microphone and said the interview is over.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
I think at this point we need to take any reports about either side with some degree of skepticism and wait for clarity. Case in point is the recent explosion near the hospital. After the initial reports that it was an Israeli strike on the hospital, other reports came out that it was an errant Hamas missile that landed in a courtyard next to the hospital.

And I certainly wouldn't believe anything Hamas says. In a recent interview, a Hamas spokesman denied that the Oct. 7 intrusion targeted civilians. Upon the interviewer's persistent questioning and presenting of evidence, the spokesman took off his microphone and said the interview is over.
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I wouldn't believe Hamas either.

But I do believe the IAF's (Israeli Air Force) claims that they dropped 6,000 bombs in the first six days of the retaliation, which if applied linearly (they're not) would work out to 42 bombs per square mile of the Gaza strip. That seems to make sense. In the end at least 1,500 Palestinians were killed and more than 6,000 wounded in the first two weeks of the war, according to CBS' reporting of the Gaza Ministry of Health. Now, two weeks later, and looking at the massive destruction in published photographs, that seems very possible, though the deaths and wounded are likely much higher now.

Still... I'm looking forward to seeing independently vetted and more accurate numbers.
 
Citysnaps said:
I wouldn't believe Hamas either.

But I do believe the IAF's (Israeli Air Force) claims that they dropped 6,000 bombs in the first six days of the retaliation,
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loaded word choice right there
 
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