Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

Roller said:
I've repeatedly decried the injury and death of innocent Palestinians in the current Hamas-Israel war, though some casualties are inevitable because Hamas is embedded amongst the Gazan population.
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I think the moral/ethical debate, and why Blinken is now on his third trip to Israel to meet with Netanyahu on the subject, revolves around how Netanyahu goes about wiping out Hamas (I'm all on-board with wiping out Hamas).

For example, Hamas hides in a massive network of underground tunnels, apparently totalling a few hundred miles. In order to expediently wipe out Hamas in tunnels where they hide, is it ethical to bomb and destroy refuge camps and Palestinians located above ground on top of the tunnels, in order to wipe out Hamas below?
 
I’ve expressed myself as clearly as I can on this topic. Of those who disagree, I accept your disagreement,
  • I support Israel but not blindly, not to kill whom ever It’s convenient to kill to expedite a solution.
  • I expect Israel to kill Hamas, but respect Palestinian lives, if not, they will be criticized vigorously and rightfully so. If it makes you uncomfortable, so be it,
  • I reject Israel turning Gaza into a big pile of rubble and being so blatantly cavalier regarding collateral damage. As is, this is immoral.
@Alli keeps saying what is your solution?
My solution is for Israel to alter its approach so as respect the framework I have laid out. Why the hell are all of Israel‘s ally's pleading with Israel to dial it back? Israel had the perfect opportunity to be an victem in this, but what Israel is doing, is hyper manufacturing the next generation of Arabs who hate their freaking guts. Bravo…

And if you want to give Israel a blank check regarding the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza because Hamas is hiding there, be my guest, but I’m not closing my eyes to this, and I’ll never feel guilty about pushing moderation in the midst of Israel’s revenge killing frenzy. 😳
 
Huntn said:
I’ve expressed myself as clearly as I can on this topic. Of those who disagree, I accept your disagreement,
  • I support Israel but not blindly, not to kill whom ever It’s convenient to kill to expedite a solution.
  • I expect Israel to kill Hamas, but respect Palestinian lives, if not, they will be criticized vigorously and rightfully so. If it makes you uncomfortable, so be it,
  • I reject Israel turning Gaza into a big pile of rubble and being so blatantly cavalier regarding collateral damage. As is, this is immoral.
@Alli keeps saying what is your solution?
My solution is for Israel to alter its approach so as respect the framework I have laid out. Why the hell are all of Israel‘s ally's pleading with Israel to dial it back? Israel had the perfect opportunity to be an victem in this, but what Israel is doing, is hyper manufacturing the next generation of Arabs who hate their freaking guts. Bravo…

And if you want to give Israel a blank check regarding the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza because Hamas is hiding there, be my guest, but I’m not closing my eyes to this, and I’ll never feel guilty about pushing moderation in the midst of Israel’s revenge killing frenzy. 😳
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You haven't given a solution that would stop Hamas missiles from being fired into Israel with the explicit intention of killing civilians other than to say Israel should "alter its approach." Exactly how? What exactly should Israel do while its citizens are being killed and sleeping in bomb shelters? Exactly how do you expect Israel to "kill Hamas" while Hamas is deeply embedded in civilian areas? How do you destroy missile launchers on rooftops without creating rubble?

Let me suggest an analogy. You have a dispute with your next door neighbor who has started shooting with a cannon into your house and has killed some family members. Let's say you're unable to flee and outside help is not available. You have the ability to inflict serious damage to his house but you know that he has children living there. What do you do? Do you let him continue killing your family members because you don't want to harm his children? I find that hard to believe. Maybe your solution is to call him and say that he has two minutes to evacuate his children before you blow up his house so as to disable his weapon. I think most people would consider that the best solution under the circumstances and is similar to what Israel tries to do. But maybe your neighbor is a complete fanatic and blocks his children from leaving the house, using them as shields because he thinks that will stop you. Then what? Do you continue to let him kill members of your family? Really now, what would you do?

I hope for the day that we could all just go back to slamming Trump.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
You haven't given a solution that would stop Hamas missiles from being fired into Israel with the explicit intention of killing civilians other than to say Israel should "alter its approach." Exactly how? What exactly should Israel do while its citizens are being killed and sleeping in bomb shelters? Exactly how do you expect Israel to "kill Hamas" while Hamas is deeply embedded in civilian areas? How do you destroy missile launchers on rooftops without creating rubble?

Let me suggest an analogy. You have a dispute with your next door neighbor who has started shooting with a cannon into your house and has killed some family members. Let's say you're unable to flee and outside help is not available. You have the ability to inflict serious damage to his house but you know that he has children living there. What do you do? Do you let him continue killing your family members because you don't want to harm his children? I find that hard to believe. Maybe your solution is to call him and say that he has two minutes to evacuate his children before you blow up his house so as to disable his weapon. I think most people would consider that the best solution under the circumstances and is similar to what Israel tries to do. But maybe your neighbor is a complete fanatic and blocks his children from leaving the house, using them as shields because he thinks that will stop you. Then what? Do you continue to let him kill members of your family? Really now, what would you do?

I hope for the day that we could all just go back to slamming Trump.
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I’ll give you an analogy: in a neighborhood of 4 Jewish Homes and 6 Arab Homes, members of an Arab family enter Jewish home and murder all of the occupants. The next day 5 of the Arab Homes are found to be smoking ruins, all of the occupants dead.

I’m not here telling anyone how to conduct the war. I am pushing standards of war that avoid war crimes. And some of you actually I’m picking on Israel and not being fair. Fine, whatever. Feel free to keep making excuses and cheer leading for Israel. And I’m done debating this.

Yes, I’d much rather be bitching about Trump. 🤔
 
Huntn said:
I’ll give you an analogy: in a neighborhood of 4 Jewish Homes and 6 Arab Homes, members of an Arab family enter Jewish home and murder all of the occupants. The next day 5 of the Arab Homes are found to be smoking ruins, all of the occupants dead.
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Really not a reasonable analogy. Are there comrades of the Arab family with missile launchers mounted in those 5 homes? Have they vowed to wipe out the members of the other 3 Jewish homes? That would more closely resemble the current situation. Should the members of the other 3 Jewish homes just wait around to be attacked for the sake of equalizing the number of casualties? I can understand and share your disgust with what is happening but you haven't given any way out for Israel other than to not take action to prevent further loss of life of its citizens. Let's put some onus on Hamas - I think if they stopped firing missiles into Israel and released the hostages it could lead to a ceasefire.
 
Huntn said:
I’ll give you an analogy: in a neighborhood of 4 Jewish Homes and 6 Arab Homes, members of an Arab family enter Jewish home and murder all of the occupants. The next day 5 of the Arab Homes are found to be smoking ruins, all of the occupants dead.

🤔
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I would ask if the members of the other 5 Arab homes would be killing the occupants of the other 3 Jewish homes. I think in this case, the answer is YES!
 
Here's a thought experiment (I think that's the right term...) :

1) Let's suppose Hamas secretly, and unbeknownst to Israel, over many months expanded their massive underground tunnel network such that it crossed the border from Gaza and into Israel.

2) And within the underground tunnels in Israel there are Hamas soldiers, weapons, explosives, etc.

3) But... these caches of Hamas soldiers and weapons in tunnels are directly under a number of above ground Israeli grade schools, synagogues, apartment complexes, markets, amusement parks, downtown areas, hospitals, etc. And within those above ground facilities there are typically hundreds of Israeli citizens enjoying the day.

4) Would the IDF use the same method of eradicating Hamas soldiers and weapons in tunnels under Israel as was used in Gaza? Of course not. Israel would come up with a different plan and method.

The above is a very far fetched and unlikely scenario. But I believe it's worth thinking about.
 
Citysnaps said:
Here's a thought experiment (I think that's the right term...) :

1) Let's suppose Hamas secretly, and unbeknownst to Israel, over many months expanded their massive underground tunnel network such that it crossed the border from Gaza and into Israel.

2) And within the underground tunnels in Israel there are Hamas soldiers, weapons, explosives, etc.

3) But... these caches of Hamas soldiers and weapons in tunnels are directly under a number of above ground Israeli grade schools, synagogues, apartment complexes, markets, amusement parks, downtown areas, hospitals, etc. And within those above ground facilities there are typically hundreds of Israeli citizens enjoying the day.

4) Would the IDF use the same method of eradicating Hamas soldiers and weapons in tunnels under Israel as was used in Gaza? Of course not. Israel would come up with a different plan and method.

The above is a very far fetched and unlikely scenario. But I believe it's worth thinking about.
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Watched: “Genocide” 1982
Amazon product ASIN B076HDF6CN <- not sure if this link works.

www.amazon.com/Genocide-Elizabeth-Taylor/dp/B076HDF6CN?nodl=1&dplnkId=191b9fbb-9d53-4e65-ad26-733b795a0e1d

…this morning with my wife and it turned our stomachs what was perpetrated on Jews. Was familiar before this. And while I sincerely hope not all Jews agree with Israel’s current path in Gaza it alarms me to the core that a people with this history could so easily dehumanize Palestinians and rationalize their wholesale murder for their imagined self security. 😔
 
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mac_in_tosh said:
Yes, the same method of giving civilians a chance to move out of a combat area.
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I’ll call this hard core rationalization. Palestinians are rats in a trap, locked in a kill box, of which more and more is completely inhabitable. they have no where to go, and if they don’t move fast enough they get blown up. But that’s ok, they chose poorly… 🤬
 
Two principles I hope everyone can agree on are that Israel had a duty and right to respond to the brutal Hamas attack on October 7 and that death and injury of innocents, especially children, is always horrific. The question is what specific actions by the IDF would have reconciled their goal of wiping out Hamas with the need to minimize civilian casualties? Unfortunately, I don't think this was possible given the presence of Hamas terrorists throughout densely-populated Gaza, including hiding inside a network of subterranean tunnels.

Israel did advise Palestinians to move south by dropping leaflets, though this was clearly not feasible for many, particularly hospitalized patients. They also used "roof knocking" (dropping low-yield munitions to warn a building's occupants of an impending strike) in some cases, but that tactic reportedly achieved limited success. (I'll note that Israelis had no such advance notice on October 7, when Hamas' specific goal was to kill and/or capture as many civilians as possible.)

Israel's leaders have apparently concluded that eradicating Hamas is paramount, but I don't think this is working in their favor politically, as there are increasing calls for restraint, including from allies. As Secretary Blinken said yesterday, "There will be no partners for peace if they’re consumed by humanitarian catastrophe and alienated by any perceived indifference to their plight." I'm sure what's being said in private is even more stringent. Even if Israel significantly depletes Hamas, recruiting the next generation is becoming easier.

I don't believe a full cease-fire is possible, but a decrease in bombardment and Israeli support for provision of additional humanitarian aid should be possible without Israel compromising its objectives.

And one more thing: Attacks and threats of violence against Jews and Muslims are intolerable no matter where one stands on the issues. Jews throughout the world, including here in the U.S., are more fearful for our lives than at any time in recent memory.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
Yes, the same method of giving civilians a chance to move out of a combat area.
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“Chance” is situational, and is a matter of having options.

That appears to be very different depending on which side of the Israel-Gaza border one lives on, and having available means to take advantage of that chance.

It would indeed be sad, and likely immoral, if the decision to bomb came down to “we gave them a chance, they didn’t act fast enough, they're still there, so they’re OK with dying or being maimed. Thus we take no responsibility.”
 
I fully understand people's concern about civilians in Gaza but no one has yet suggested an alternate way for Israel to stop Hamas' missiles and take out their capabilities. Can it be expected to just do nothing in order to avoid casualties while its own civilians are being targeted? And one never knows what to believe but I read that in some cases Hamas has blocked attempts by civilians to move away.
 
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There is so much hypocrisy and dishonesty going around, especially with all these protests in the Arab world and on college campuses. Were there any protests over the Oct. 7 horrors? Was Hamas accused of collective punishment when they gleefully killed children in Israel? Then we have Erdogan giving an anti-Israel speech with a background of Turkey's treatment of the Kurds. Attacks on Christians in Nigeria have been increasing. Are the protestors outraged by that? Pakistan announced it is expelling 1.7 million Afghans, including many who have lived in Pakistan for several decades. Are they outraged by that, in particular by what will happen to women who return to Afghanistan?

How is it that with few exceptions the people who protest what Israel is doing in Gaza appear to have zero concern about these other humanitarian crises?
 
mac_in_tosh said:
How is it that with few exceptions the people who protest what Israel is doing in Gaza appear to have zero concern about these other humanitarian crises?
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My sense and recollection, in general, was that the outrage expressed was strong. And swift.
 
Huntn said:
I’ll call this hard core rationalization. Palestinians are rats in a trap, locked in a kill box, of which more and more is completely inhabitable. they have no where to go, and if they don’t move fast enough they get blown up. But that’s ok, they chose poorly… 🤬
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I'm not trying to minimize your concern, much of which I share. But you still have failed to provide any alternatives to Israel for stopping the continuing firing of missiles into its citizenry when the launchers are located in densely populated areas. Should they do nothing in order to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties while their own civilians are being targeted?

How about putting some blame on Hamas for instigating this situation. It is no doubt exactly what Hamas wanted. They knew they wouldn't militarily defeat Israel and they knew there would be a strong response, especially with the hostage taking. I noted elsewhere that I read they themselves have blocked civilian movement out of combat zones, all with the intention of rousing exactly the types of protests we are seeing.

Citysnaps said:
My sense and recollection, in general, was that the outrage expressed was strong. And swift.
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Really, outrage on college campuses to this extent over Pakistan's expelling of Afghans? Over Christian massacres in Nigeria? I must have missed them.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
Really, outrage on college campuses to this extent over Pakistan's expelling of Afghans? Over Christian massacres in Nigeria? I must have missed them.
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I can't speak to those events other than possibly hearing about them on the morning news. I can say there was loads of coverage of Hamas' attack on Israel, accompanied with outraged expressed all over the world, including in the US. That was covered and pretty much dominated the PBS News Hour and Amanpour and Company (my main world news sources), as well as regular network news.
 
Citysnaps said:
I can't speak to those events other than possibly hearing about them on the morning news. I can say there was loads of coverage of Hamas' attack on Israel, accompanied with outraged expressed all over the world, including in the US. That was covered and pretty much dominated the PBS News Hour and Amanpour and Company (my main world news sources), as well as regular network news.
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Yes it was covered in the new, but to my point were there protests in the Arab street and in college campuses? I think the answer is no.
 
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