Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[mac_in_tosh]

How's that? Israel retaliated, right?

From the Cambridge Dictionary: "the act of hurting someone or doing something harmful to someone because they have done or said something harmful to you." Israel's mission in Gaza is not simply what the definition says but to stop missiles from being fired into Israel, to recover the hostages and to take away Hamas' capabilities.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Same here. I can't believe there's no way to deal with terrorists lurking in underground tunnels other than destroying innocent civilians who happen to be in a hospital/refuge camp/home/theater/mosque/etc above ground on top.

Such armchair quarterbacking going on here. I'm no expert in close quarter urban combat, like some people here seem to be, but I have an idea. The Israelis could set up a loudspeaker at the entrance to the tunnel and broadcast the following message:
"Hamas, we know you're in there and have stockpiled supplies inside that you are using to kill our people. Could you please put down your guns and come out so we can detain you without harming any of your people or any of us? We all would greatly appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Thank you."

 

[Huntn]

I'm not trying to minimize your concern, much of which I share. But you still have failed to provide any alternatives to Israel for stopping the continuing firing of missiles into its citizenry when the launchers are located in densely populated areas. Should they do nothing in order to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties while their own civilians are being targeted?

How about putting some blame on Hamas for instigating this situation. It is no doubt exactly what Hamas wanted. They knew they wouldn't militarily defeat Israel and they knew there would be a strong response, especially with the hostage taking. I noted elsewhere that I read they themselves have blocked civilian movement out of combat zones, all with the intention of rousing exactly the types of protests we are seeing.


Really, outrage on college campuses to this extent over Pakistan's expelling of Afghans? Over Christian massacres in Nigeria? I must have missed them.

Gaza is a mess, a huge tragedy, it is Hamas’s fault, but until I see some some indication that Israel has the slightest concern about Palestinian collateral damage, I will be critical of Israel. There are “tunnels under there” is not an excuse imo to level entire sections of Gaza. Give a short notice, expect civilians to flee immediately, and if they don’t, they can’t, it’s fuck’m, besides, “they are Palestinians and it was Palestinians that attacked us so they brought it on themselves.

I’ve been asked by blanket Israel supporters, here andvelsewhere, what other option is there, ie basically kill any Palestinians in their sights? Level all of Gaza, cut off food, water, and humanitarian aid, bomb refugee camps, blow up ambulances, and not give a fuck about what these people do in response, just kill’m, problem solved, right? It’s basically the convenient, kill’m all approach. I won’t ever support this, nore will I ever feel guilty for pushing moderation. And just because the blanket Israel supporters have convinced themselves this is the only way, it certainly is the convenient method, but I don’t believe it’s the only way.

My job is not to speculate about tactics for Israel could use, but I do know the optics of indiscriminately slaughtering Palestinians is such a terrible optic, if they want to cement Arab hate against them in the region, to ensure decades more conflict directed at them, then they are doing an outstanding job of making a bloody bed for themselves, and it’s impossible for me to push anything other than moderation, vs kill’m all.

I am against Hamas, and although I support Israel’s right to exist, based on my study of history, I regarded the establishment of a Jewish State in the middle of Palestine as a mistake, as the lasting mistake, in hindsight, reinforcing by decades of conflict that have followed. Israel was not created by indigenous Middle East Jews. It was 100k European Jews that were plopped down in the middle of Palestine, and it’s been conflict ever since. Historically, it has to be regarded as a bad choice.

 

[Huntn]

Dude. You’re being more than disengenuine here, since you have heard (right here in the forums!) from all the Jewish members that we do not agree with the Israeli government. However, we struggle to offer a solution that wouldn’t result in the anihilation of Israel. You are so focused on the civilians in Gaza, that you fail to see a cease fire would only happen from within Israel. The firing would continue from Hamas.

That was a great video. It’s a shame the student volunteer was so clueless. I’d like to see him explain to a larger audience. I can think of a number of people who need to hear this, cause they don’t hear it when I say it.

I’m not disingenuous AT ALL, I’m just not handing Israel carte blance to kill in the most convienent manner to solve their Palestinian problem, much of it of their creation, for their security. I think you have lost your perspective. Granted, I ‘m not Jewish, I can look at this, see both sides, and see injustice and death no matter who has commited it,

I’m happy to discuss this when you can stop bending over backwards to justify wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. The knives are out, and are trying to sound reasonable about it. I got that. Oh, there’s no other way… I am/was against it when Hamas did it, and I’m against it when Israel victimizes an entire population of Arabs locked up in their ghetto created by Israel when they resist further victimization or are simply running for their lives, but are not fast enough to avoid being killed by the blanket Israel response.

 

[Alli]

It was 100k European Jews that were plopped down in the middle of Palestine, and it’s been conflict ever since.

Do some more historical research. Where do you think the Jews in Europe came from originally? I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t France.

 

[Huntn]

IMO we should be careful about blanket statements like this, in this example the members of the other 5 Arab homes have done nothing wrong and in no way does it justify their slaughter based on what they may or may not support.

I would like to see Israel take a more surgical and methodical approach personally. That said we know Hamas will not let up no matter what so a ceasefire seems like it will never happen, they have and will sacrifice innocent Palestinians to hide behind which is sad but I'm not sure how you get around that.

That was exactly my point. The question becomes, how many Palestinians does Israel think they need to kill to solve our Hamas problem? The blanket Israel supporters say “all if needed”. I ask, need or most convenient? Why do you think atbthis point that most of Israel’s ally are counciling restraint at this point?

 

[Huntn]

Do some more historical research. Where do you think the Jews in Europe came from originally? I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t France.

Really Alli? So you think it’s worked out wonderfully for Israel? My point has not been invalidated. Israel has faced war and conflict from its neighbors since its creation. It does not matter if they started in the Middle East millennium/centuries before, post WWII, they (100k) suddenly immigrated into the area from Europe taking land from Palestinians, with help from the UN. This is indisputed.

 

[Alli]

Really Alli? So you think it’s worked out wonderfully for Israel? My point has not been invalidated. Israel has faced war and conflict from its neighbors since its creation. It does not matter if they started in the Middle East millennium/centuries before, post WWII, they (100k) suddenly immigrated into the area from Europe taking land from Palestinians, with help from the UN. This is indisputed.

You intentionally miss every point. I’m done. No need for a response.

 

[Citysnaps]

From the Cambridge Dictionary: "the act of hurting someone or doing something harmful to someone because they have done or said something harmful to you." Israel's mission in Gaza is not simply what the definition says but to stop missiles from being fired into Israel, to recover the hostages and to take away Hamas' capabilities.

True. But Netanyahu himself said (paraphrased) their goal is to wipe out Hamas so that they can never attack Israel again. I'm 100% on-board with that. That aside... Hamas viscously harmed Israel and its citizens, Israel retaliated with the goal of ensuring Hamas can never do that again. I still don't see the problem with that. Perhaps a better word have been "responded." But IMO, that's splitting hairs gotcha and not furthering the discussion.

Such armchair quarterbacking going on here. I'm no expert in close quarter urban combat, like some people here seem to be, but I have an idea. The Israelis could set up a loudspeaker at the entrance to the tunnel and broadcast the following message:
"Hamas, we know you're in there and have stockpiled supplies inside that you are using to kill our people. Could you please put down your guns and come out so we can detain you without harming any of your people or any of us? We all would greatly appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Thank you."

Of course it is. That's the initial basis of having discussions. And trying to genuinely understand what happened, working with limited information. In the spirit of having a discussion, there's nothing wrong about *speculating* about other options.

A large part of this forum is speculating about a wide variety of subjects/topics/events, working with limited information. I'd bring up a handful of examples, but I don't want to be accused of being insensitive to the discussion we're having here, or somehow diminishing the seriousness of what Israel is going through where human lives are involved.


"Hamas, we know you're in there and have stockpiled supplies inside that you are using to kill our people. Could you please put down your guns and come out so we can detain you without harming any of your people or any of us? We all would greatly appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Thank you."

That's an unrealistic option, and IMO, doesn't help to further the discussion.

 

[Eric]

It’s obvious this thing is splitting those on the left. It used to be it was only fashionable to hate on Jews in the Conservative Party.

 

[Herdfan]

It’s obvious this thing is splitting those on the left. It used to be it was only fashionable to hate on Jews in the Conservative Party.

Really?

I don't hate Jews. In fact I could care less about their religion as it doesn't affect me, or anyone else really.

But I do agree the issue is splitting the left.

 

[Eric]

Really?

I don't hate Jews. In fact I could care less about their religion as it doesn't affect me, or anyone else really.

But I do agree the issue is splitting the left.

Statistically speaking it’s right wing Conservatives that commit almost all acts of domestic terrorism against Jews in the United States. They’re also the most aligned with Nazi extremism.

 

[Roller]

Really Alli? So you think it’s worked out wonderfully for Israel? My point has not been invalidated. Israel has faced war and conflict from its neighbors since its creation. It does not matter if they started in the Middle East millennium/centuries before, post WWII, they (100k) suddenly immigrated into the area from Europe taking land from Palestinians, with help from the UN. This is indisputed.

Your stance is that the Jews could have avoided war by going to Africa, Russia, Canada, or Australia. But you didn't respond when I pointed out why this wouldn't have worked, especially in the context of the times post Holocaust and the history of Jews being persecuted and expelled from countries repeatedly in the past.

Regardless, it does no good to say Israel should never have been founded in 1948. The fact is that Israel, a tiny country that has achieved more proportionally than its neighbors, is there now. So what's your solution?

 

[Edd]

Really?

I don't hate Jews. In fact I could care less about their religion as it doesn't affect me, or anyone else really.

But I do agree the issue is splitting the left.

Statistically speaking it’s right wing Conservatives that commit almost all acts of domestic terrorism against Jews in the United States. They’re also the most aligned with Nazi extremism.

Herdfan, you’re just blown away that antisemitism is a right wing thing historically. Can’t wrap your head around it .

 

[Herdfan]

Herdfan, you’re just blown away that antisemitism is a right wing thing historically. Can’t wrap your head around it .

Not really. . Historically maybe, but not recently.

But I am fairly certain that all the anti-Israel protest on these college campuses is not coming from right-leaning students.

 

[Edd]

Not really. . Historically definitely

Fixed it, for the sake of your confusion when you responded “really?”

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Not really. . Historically maybe, but not recently.

But I am fairly certain that all the anti-Israel protest on these college campuses is not coming from right-leaning students.

I don’t agree with the logic, but the antisemitism on the left is the result of decades of Israeli propaganda massively backfiring. For at least as long as I’ve been alive every time there is an attack on Israel it gets trumpeted out that it’s also an attack on every Jew on the planet. You can’t have it both ways. So if you are to believe that then you also have to conclude that every Jew on the planet is also complicit in whatever Israel does that you don’t like. Again, I don’t agree with it, but there it is.

 

[Eric]

Herdfan, you’re just blown away that antisemitism is a right wing thing historically. Can’t wrap your head around it .

He will never own that it exists in his own party, he has only one lane and will never criticize anything in it, at least never in the years I’ve seen him post.

IMO you’ll never be taken seriously if you can’t criticize your own, especially with something this glaringly obvious.

 

[Citysnaps]

Right now I'm watching BBC coverage of Gaza. 10,022 Palestinian civilians killed since the beginning of the attacks.

 

[Cmaier]

Right now I'm watching BBC coverage of Gaza. 10,022 Palestinian civilians killed since the beginning of the attacks.

The source is the ”Palestinian health authority,” which is lying.