Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

mac_in_tosh said:
Of course, this was Hamas' plan. Commit unspeakable atrocities in Israel to force a response from Israel and then get people around the world to protest.
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Do you think Hamas thought Israel would take it as far as they have? Or do they think world pressure would have stopped them by now.
 
Roller said:
It's not a side note when your thesis is that founding a Jewish state "in the middle of Arab land" is the root cause of all the suffering that has taken place in the region since then. As @mac_in_tosh pointed out better than I, the discussion regarding settlement in what is now Israel is far more nuanced than you acknowledge. As well, you haven't said whether you believe a two state arrangement is worth pursuing, as opposed to, say, Israel renouncing its nationhood and Jews either living in an Arab country or packing up and going elsewhere.

As for the ongoing Hamas-Israel war, here's a new article from someone with domain expertise in urban warfare:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

This doesn't mean that Israel has been blameless in its 75-year history or that what's happening to the Palestinians in the current conflict isn't horrible. The CNN writer makes several suggestions as to what Israel can do to limit casualties and assist with providing humanitarian assistance. But what of Hamas? How about releasing a sizable number of hostages in exchange? If they cared about the Palestinian people in Gaza, wouldn't that be a reasonable course of action? But I'm reasonably certain that won't happen because their primary objective is for Israel not to exist.
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I guarantee you that if Israel was facing the kind of destruction we ware seeing in Gaza, they would consider it pretty damed destructive and horrifying. I’ve supported the two State solution all along. There are many examples where one group has an historical gripe against another group and how it is resolved depends on the parties.
 
Huntn said:
I guarantee you that if Israel was facing the kind of destruction we ware seeing in Gaza, they would consider it pretty damed destructive and horrifying. I’ve supported the two State solution all along. There are many examples where one group has an historical gripe against another group and how it is resolved depends on the parties.
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Of course it's horrifying. War is horrifying. What happened Oct. 7 is horrifying. If Hamas and Hezbollah had more resources that is exactly what they would do to Israel or do you think they would be "more surgical?" But again, what is the alternative to countering Hamas missiles being fired into Israeli civilian populated areas? What does "be more surgical" mean? There is no magical weapon that could take out a missile launcher and leave the surrounding area untouched.

And of course Hamas is not fighting for a two state solution but rather an ethnic/religious cleansing.
 
Herdfan said:
Do you think Hamas thought Israel would take it as far as they have? Or do they think world pressure would have stopped them by now.
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I think it was reported that Hamas was surprised at how successful their own attack was. As far as Israel’s response, like the US, at minimum it will always be 10 to 100 times the death and destruction of the original attack. So any surprise from Hamas on Israel’s taking it this far would stem from the surprise of their own success.
 
Herdfan said:
Do you think Hamas thought Israel would take it as far as they have? Or do they think world pressure would have stopped them by now.
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I read one article that said they did not expect a response of this magnitude. But they were delusional not to have done so, considering the number of Israeli casualties and the taking of hostages.
 
Chew Toy McCoy said:
I think it was reported that Hamas was surprised at how successful their own attack was. As far as Israel’s response, like the US, at minimum it will always be 10 to 100 times the death and destruction of the original attack. So any surprise from Hamas on Israel’s taking it this far would stem from the surprise of their own success.
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It was the same after 9/11, al Qaeda said they were pleasantly surprised at how successful the attack was. At least Israel is bombing the right country in retaliation though.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
"Kill any Palestinians in their sights" is an inciteful, outright misrepresentation of the situation and you know it.

So your job is not to speculate about tactics Israel could use? Maybe because you know there is no alternative except to do nothing.
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Though your above response wasn't directed towards me, and perhaps against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my neck out, take an amateur's stab at it and speculate, just to keep the discussion going. Again, this is just a spitball:

Knowing Israel has a top-shelf and very capable intelligence apparatus (Shin Bet and Mossad) I’d imagine they have close to 100% insight as to who the planners of Oct. 7th were. I wouldn't be shocked if US/UK intelligence and assets would help as well, as needed.

For retaliation and decapitating the Hamas leadership involved with the attack, over time they could quietly go after them in a beneath-the-radar sort of way. And then work down to those who participated. Similar to Israel’s Wrath of God operation dealing with the 1972 Munich Olympic terrorists, designed by Moshe Dayan and approved by Golda Meir.

That’d be a start, but doesn’t ensure Israeli security going forward. I would hope that Shin Bet has covert operatives within Gaza that blend in with its citizens, keeping an eye on any future terrorists attacks being planned against Israel. Which would then be quickly dealt with in a similar manner. US/UK intelligence would likely help by supplying information, as needed.

So…that’s my handwaving for the day. :)
 
Citysnaps said:
Though your above response wasn't directed towards me, and perhaps against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my neck out, take an amateur's stab at it and speculate, just to keep the discussion going. Again, this is just a spitball:

Knowing Israel has a top-shelf and very capable intelligence apparatus (Shin Bet and Mossad) I’d imagine they have close to 100% insight as to who the planners of Oct. 7th were. I wouldn't be shocked if US/UK intelligence and assets would help as well, as needed.

For retaliation and decapitating the Hamas leadership involved with the attack, over time they could quietly go after them in a beneath-the-radar sort of way. And then work down to those who participated. Similar to Israel’s Wrath of God operation dealing with the 1972 Munich Olympic terrorists, designed by Moshe Dayan and approved by Golda Meir.

That’d be a start, but doesn’t ensure Israeli security going forward. I would hope that Shin Bet has covert operatives within Gaza that blend in with its citizens, keeping an eye on any future terrorists attacks being planned against Israel. Which would then be quickly dealt with in a similar manner. US/UK intelligence would likely help by supplying information, as needed.

So…that’s my handwaving for the day. :)
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I wonder how capable Israel's intelligence services are/were given that they couldn't detect in advance the incursion that happened on October 7, especially since the operation had apparently been in planning for a year or more. (That's unless one believes that they did know the attack was coming and let it happen, which I don't.)
 
Huntn said:
I guarantee you that if Israel was facing the kind of destruction we ware seeing in Gaza, they would consider it pretty damed destructive and horrifying. I’ve supported the two State solution all along. There are many examples where one group has an historical gripe against another group and how it is resolved depends on the parties.
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I'm glad you also support a two-state solution. Pity that Hamas and Hezbollah don't.
 
Roller said:
I wonder how capable Israel's intelligence services are/were given that they couldn't detect in advance the incursion that happened on October 7, especially since the operation had apparently been in planning for a year or more. (That's unless one believes that they did know the attack was coming and let it happen, which I don't.)
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I wonder about that too. I don't get it. Perhaps it's time for a shakeup at some level? Israel has a rich history of taking care of things like that, starting with snatching Eichmann halfway across the world way back in 1960.
 
mac_in_tosh said:
Of course it's horrifying. War is horrifying. What happened Oct. 7 is horrifying. If Hamas and Hezbollah had more resources that is exactly what they would do to Israel or do you think they would be "more surgical?" But again, what is the alternative to countering Hamas missiles being fired into Israeli civilian populated areas? What does "be more surgical" mean? There is no magical weapon that could take out a missile launcher and leave the surrounding area untouched.

And of course Hamas is not fighting for a two state solution but rather an ethnic/religious cleansing.
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Roller said:
I'm glad you also support a two-state solution. Pity that Hamas and Hezbollah don't.
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Israel at least current leadership does not want a 2 State solution either, they want to occupy Gaza. I think I‘ve said all I care to say on this topic, in this forum. I really don’t want to argue any more about it because it a serious source of friction, and anything other than blanket support for Israel is mostly rejected. I’m ready to accept your disagreement and let it go at that.
 
Huntn said:
Israel at least current leadership does not want a 2 State solution either, they want to occupy Gaza. I think I‘ve said all I care to say on this topic, in this forum. I really don’t want to argue any more about it because it a serious source of friction, and anything other than blanket support for Israel is mostly rejected. I’m ready to accept your disagreement and let it go at that.
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OK, but I don't agree that anything but blanket support for Israel here is mostly rejected. I concur that Netanyahu and his cronies are horrible and not interested in meaningful negotiation toward a two-state solution, though this has been offered several times in the past. But nothing will happen unless there are changes on both sides, and that includes Gaza not being governed by a terrorist organization that doesn't want Israel to exist.
 
Huntn said:
Israel at least current leadership does not want a 2 State solution either, they want to occupy Gaza.
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Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, forcibly removing settlers that objected. I doubt they want the trouble and expense of occupying Gaza, and haven't done so in 23 years. If they want to do so now, it is to prevent a reoccurrence of Oct. 7.
 
Someone asked me today, "Why Israel attacking Gaza with rockets and white phosphorous and other conventional weapons? Why aren't they using their Space Laser?"
 
mac_in_tosh said:
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, forcibly removing settlers that objected. I doubt they want the trouble and expense of occupying Gaza, and haven't done so in 23 years. If they want to do so now, it is to prevent a reoccurrence of Oct. 7.
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Uh, have you been listening to the news recently about stances about controlling Gaza coming from Netanyahu? 🤔
 
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