Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[Huntn]

For you to regard or disregard, I won’t claim how accurate it is, but will consider it:

Mass Assassination Factory”: Israel Using AI to Generate Targets in Gaza, Increasing Civilian Toll​

The report’s author, journalist Yuval Abraham, has found that the IDF’s increasing use of AI is partly a response to previous operations in Gaza when Israel quickly ran out of military targets, causing it to loosen its constraints on attacks that could kill civilians. In other words, the “civilian devastation that is happening right now in Gaza” is the result of a “war policy that has a very loose interpretation of what a military target is.” This targeting of private homes and residences to kill alleged combatants means that “when a child is killed in Gaza, it’s because somebody made a decision it was worth it.” It has turned the Israeli military into a “mass assassination factory,” with a “total disregard for Palestinian civil life,” continues Abraham, who also notes that, as an Israeli journalist, his reporting is still subject to military censors. We also discuss another recent report revealing that Israel may have received intelligence about Hamas’s planned attack more than a year in advance of October 7, but ignored it.

 

[Roller]

I've read the above as well.

One failure (either one of the above: disbelieving Jericho Wall, or, failing to escalate Hamas training reports )? Well... yeah, maybe.

Two important independent and simultaneous failures with respect to the same threat, during the same period of time? Whoa...that's a lot to swallow. I don't want to speculate possibilities, but the above sure doesn't feel right. The IDF/Shin Bet/Mossad aren't 3rd rate organizations.

The Israelis had the information - the question is why did they ignore it, especially when there was evidence Hamas was seen to be practicing what the playbook described? The only alternatives are (a) they were stupid, arrogant, or both, or (b) they willfully disregarded it so they would have a pretext to invade Gaza with a ferocity much greater than used previously. I tend to go with option a based on what I've heard and read, though once the October 7 attack happened, it gave the Israeli hardliners an excuse to proceed the way they did. I also think Hamas underestimated Israel's response, with the horrible consequences for the Palestinian civilians they were supposed to look out for.

 

[Citysnaps]

The Israelis had the information - the question is why did they ignore it, especially when there was evidence Hamas was seen to be practicing what the playbook described? The only alternatives are (a) they were stupid, arrogant, or both, or (b) they willfully disregarded it so they would have a pretext to invade Gaza with a ferocity much greater than used previously. I tend to go with option a based on what I've heard and read, though once the October 7 attack happened, it gave the Israeli hardliners an excuse to proceed the way they did. I also think Hamas underestimated Israel's response, with the horrible consequences for the Palestinian civilians they were supposed to look out for.

Yeah... that's where I was going. Haven't yet decided between those two options.

With respect to (a) and being arrogant... do you mean the IDF/intelligence believed hamas was planning a major attack/operation, but didn't believe they had the will or fortitude to actually go ahead with the plan?

If so, eh... I dunno about that. Hamas appears pretty committed - as in the past. And the IDF/Intelligence are certainly not stupid or undisciplined.

So... for me that leaves (b), which I'm leaning towards, but am not there yet (without more information), as that would likely be driven by Israeli leadership, with the idea of efficiently solving the Hamas problem once and for all.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

For you to regard or disregard, I won’t claim how accurate it is, but will consider it:

Knowing what's accurate is a big problem. Since the Hamas spokesman has said that on Oct. 7 civilians weren't targeted, I don't believe anything coming from them, including casualty figures. That "Son of Hamas" guy has said that they have even used photos from the devastation of Syria's civil war to claim to show damage in Gaza. Unless he also mentions that Hamas is firing rockets into Israel not against military targets but with the specific intent of killing as many civilians as possible, then I would regard his report as biased and therefore suspicious. His language certainly is inflammatory. "Total disregard for Palestinian civil life" to describe attempts to take out a military target?

If, in disregard of its own people, Hamas uses schools, hospitals and apartment buildings as military assets to store weapons and fire rockets, is Israel supposed to do nothing to stop the attacks on its civilians? How about let's put the blame for this war and the casualties on Hamas?

 

[Huntn]

Knowing what's accurate is a big problem. Since the Hamas spokesman has said that on Oct. 7 civilians weren't targeted, I don't believe anything coming from them, including casualty figures. That "Son of Hamas" guy has said that they have even used photos from the devastation of Syria's civil war to claim to show damage in Gaza. Unless he also mentions that Hamas is firing rockets into Israel not against military targets but with the specific intent of killing as many civilians as possible, then I would regard his report as biased and therefore suspicious. His language certainly is inflammatory. "Total disregard for Palestinian civil life" to describe attempts to take out a military target?

If, in disregard of its own people, Hamas uses schools, hospitals and apartment buildings as military assets to store weapons and fire rockets, is Israel supposed to do nothing to stop the attacks on its civilians? How about let's put the blame for this war and the casualties on Hamas?

Sure… and Israel is perfectly in their rights , slaughtering Palestinians indiscriminately, no problem, right?

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Sure… and Israel is perfectly in their rights , slaughtering Palestinians indiscriminately, no problem, right?

Wow, two loaded words in one sentence. How is targeting rocket launchers and combatants indiscriminate? If they did what you are implying the war would have been over in one day.

Instead of simply issuing asymmetrical criticism and having asymmetrical expectations of behavior, as I've asked you many times before - tell us what course of action Israel should pursue when rockets are being launched from rooftops and alleyways to indiscriminately slaughter its people, when they are facing an organization that has promised that they would take any opportunity to repeat the barbarism they committed on Oct. 7?

 

[rdrr]

Wow, two loaded words in one sentence. How is targeting rocket launchers and combatants indiscriminate? If they did what you are implying the war would have been over in one day.

Instead of simply issuing asymmetrical criticism and having asymmetrical expectations of behavior, as I've asked you many times before - tell us what course of action Israel should pursue when rockets are being launched from rooftops and alleyways to indiscriminately slaughter its people, when they are facing an organization that has promised that they would take any opportunity to repeat the barbarism they committed on Oct. 7?

I don't think it is loaded. On November 13th with 11,100 deaths it was reported that 1 in 200 people in Gaza are dead. Now with that number topping over 16,000 and even if you discount the combatants that Israel even claims is only 1/3 of the reported deaths in Gaza, the numbers of this war are way too lopsided. Sure there are innocents dying on both sides, but like all the past conflicts between Israel and Palestine, it seems that the toll is extremely unfair. In my opinion, Israel deserves all the criticism it is receiving, for the disregard of life against fellow humans that just happen to be born Palestinian.

 

[Roller]

I don't think it is loaded. On November 13th with 11,100 deaths it was reported that 1 in 200 people in Gaza are dead. Now with that number topping over 16,000 and even if you discount the combatants that Israel even claims is only 1/3 of the reported deaths in Gaza, the numbers of this war are way too lopsided. Sure there are innocents dying on both sides, but like all the past conflicts between Israel and Palestine, it seems that the toll is extremely unfair. In my opinion, Israel deserves all the criticism it is receiving, for the disregard of life against fellow humans that just happen to be born Palestinian.

That's why this is a lose-lose situation for everyone concerned. Hamas underestimated Israel's response, despite their lack of care for the Palestinian people they supposedly govern. Israel had no choice but to respond to October 7, and Hamas's embedding themselves with civilians in Gaza made that extremely difficult. And certainly the Palestinians, who like most Israelis just want to go on with their lives, have suffered tremendous losses.

The cease fire and hostage/prisoner releases offered a glimmer of hope, but I don't have much faith it will resume anytime soon. Unfortunately, I think both sides view the current situation as a fait accompli, repeating the grave errors that humans have made throughout history.

Aside from all the injury, death, and destruction, I'm horrified by the lack of attention paid to what Hamas did, especially their use of sexual violence against women. That some people are justifying their actions as a predictable and even a reasonable response to anything Israel has done is disgusting.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

I don't think it is loaded. On November 13th with 11,100 deaths it was reported that 1 in 200 people in Gaza are dead. Now with that number topping over 16,000 and even if you discount the combatants that Israel even claims is only 1/3 of the reported deaths in Gaza, the numbers of this war are way too lopsided. Sure there are innocents dying on both sides, but like all the past conflicts between Israel and Palestine, it seems that the toll is extremely unfair. In my opinion, Israel deserves all the criticism it is receiving, for the disregard of life against fellow humans that just happen to be born Palestinian.

No doubt there are many casualties, but that number comes from Hamas so is highly suspicious. In any case, this argument of unfair and lopsided is one we usually hear regarding Israel and the Palestinians and it is so naive. So after Hamas killed over a thousand Israelis, Israel should respond but stop when there are the same number of Palestinian casualties? Then wait until Hamas kills, what?, another five hundred Israelis for Israel to re-engage Hamas and then stop at five hundred?? Etc. Has any war in history ever been fought that way? That's basically letting Hamas control the conflict. And do you think for one second that if Hamas had the upper hand it would be worrying about what is fair or lopsided? Is it "unfair" for Hamas to be launching rockets from rooftops?

 

[Citysnaps]

No doubt there are many casualties, but that number comes from Hamas so is highly suspicious. In any case, this argument of unfair and lopsided is one we usually hear regarding Israel and the Palestinians and it is so naive. So after Hamas killed over a thousand Israelis, Israel should respond but stop when there are the same number of Palestinian casualties? Then wait until Hamas kills, what?, another five hundred Israelis for Israel to re-engage Hamas and then stop at five hundred?? Etc. Has any war in history ever been fought that way? That's basically letting Hamas control the conflict. And do you think for one second that if Hamas had the upper hand it would be worrying about what is fair or lopsided? Is it "unfair" for Hamas to be launching rockets from rooftops?

No. I think Israel should and needs to totally eliminate every single Hamas combatant and their leadership, in order to solve this issue once and for all.

Where we disagree is the manner in which that should be accomplished.

As an aside, and something I posted about in the past...With respect to the number of casualties reported, The New York Times conducted their own and independent casualties investigation and tally for the previous three Israel- Hamas conflicts. And found their numbers were within a few percent of those reported by the Palestinian Ministry of Health.

 

[Huntn]

Wow, two loaded words in one sentence. How is targeting rocket launchers and combatants indiscriminate? If they did what you are implying the war would have been over in one day.

Instead of simply issuing asymmetrical criticism and having asymmetrical expectations of behavior, as I've asked you many times before - tell us what course of action Israel should pursue when rockets are being launched from rooftops and alleyways to indiscriminately slaughter its people, when they are facing an organization that has promised that they would take any opportunity to repeat the barbarism they committed on Oct. 7?

I’ll acknowledge up front, this reply is a complete waste of my time. This argumrnt is circular, going no where.

<loaded words> You think so? Ask the world what they think, what the Biden Administration thinks.

You are asking for battle tactics from me? How many times do I have to say it?
The only way sane way out for Israel is to stop indiscriminatingly slaughtering Palestinians locked in slums of their making because the locals, peaceful or not have no where to go, and are not fast enough to dodge their withering pouring into the kill box and then watching them die of disease, starvation and lack of basic human needs, while shallowly talking about how unfortunate this all is.
You do realize that although for different reasons, when it comes to killing,, this is eerily the same rationalization that WWII Germany used to try to eradicate all Jews. Today it’s the Palestinians who are expendable. Gosh who might have said that recently?

Netanyahu Calls Palestinians ‘Collateral Damage’ As Israel Destroys Gaza

The Israeli prime minister also called the UN's accusation of war crimes "hogwash," despite now killing more than 11,000 Palestinians in Gaza.

www.huffpost.com

In essence, the consistent counter in so many words, from the Israel block, is this is war, so sad, but a necessary FUCK’m. My bottom line, continues to be, which I acknowledge you disagree with, is don’t be an apologist for monstrous behavior on one State’s behalf (Hamas who are in control of Gaza) while turning a blind eye to the other State‘s genocidal behavior (Israel).

My guess is the wheel of hate will turn and churn all the more years (decades?) in the Middle East because Israel lost perspective with the goal of removing the Hamas threat, with an abundance of “so sad” <wink, wink> collateral damage If they get their way, the 100 Palestinians left will be fully manageable.

Again…
YES, Israel was hit first, it was tragically wrong/evil, and Hamas does not have the general populaces best interests at heart, but who else does the Palestinians have for them, even if it is dubious? It’s certainly not Israel. Israel’s behavior, has reaped 20 fold in retaliatory death at the hands of a Conservative Head of State whose intent is to cut down anyone who shakes a fist at them.

Bad karma- Not helping is a 40 year history in the area, with Palestinians being shoved into their slums and kept under Israel thumbs, while expanding into the West Bank, stealing land, because (we need the space more than they do…with more fuck’m sprinkled in). You’re surprised and condemn, when some Palestinians cheer when Hamas rapes, parades and murders iwomen? You must acknowledge this is a tragic level of hate that Israel has direct involvement in, and by their actions in response, they have squandered their victim hood status and have likely, imo, ensured many more years of self generated pain. I’ll rest my argument for now…

 

[Alli]

Aure Free Press :verified: (@Free_Press@mstdn.social)

Attached: 1 video Near a clinic and a school in the north of the Gaza Strip: the soldiers of the 50th Battalion of the Nahal located one of the largest IMD deposits located in the Gaza Strip - long-range missiles aimed at the center of the country, hundreds of rockets and RPG launchers, dozens...

mstdn.social

 

[mac_in_tosh]

You are asking for battle tactics from me? How many times do I have to say it?
The only way sane way out for Israel is to stop indiscriminatingly slaughtering Palestinians locked in slums of their making because the locals, peaceful or not have no where to go, and are not fast enough to dodge their withering pouring into the kill box and then watching them die of disease, starvation and lack of basic human needs, while shallowly talking about how unfortunate this all is.

By "their making" you mean Israel? So you are blaming Israel for Gaza's slums and for them having no where to go. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, which included the army forcefully removing settlers. There were elections which Hamas won. That was the last election they allowed and they killed off all opponents including the Palestinian Authority. The billions in aid that they received over the years was not used to improve the condition of the people but rather to build up weaponry. They of course rule with an iron hand with the people having little or no means to protest. As for having somewhere to go, Hamas itself has blocked people from fleeing areas of fighting. I'm not saying Israel is perfect, no nation is, but you seem to want to put all blame on Israel whereas Hamas could have done so much more over the years to alleviate the condition in Gaza.

And your response to my question of what you think Israel should do to stop rocket fire into its civilian areas is your "way out." A way out of what? Conflict with Hamas? If Israel stopped all actions do you think Hamas would also? They have already vowed to take any opportunity to repeat the horrific events of Oct. 7. It's not fighting for a two state solution or even seems to be very concerned about the condition of Gazans. It's a movement driven by a fanatical religious goal of cleansing the region of Jews, Christians and any other infidels. So you have still failed to provide any practical alternative for Israel other than to allow its citizens to continue to be killed.

You do realize that although for different reasons, when it comes to killing,, this is eerily the same rationalization that WWII Germany used to try to eradicate all Jews. Today it’s the Palestinians who are expendable. Gosh who might have said that recently?

What an astonishingly inappropriate analogy to make. I don't think Jewish militias committed the horrific acts that Hamas did on Oct. 7. I don't think Jews were firing thousands of rockets into German cities or calling for the eradication of Germany.

In essence, the consistent counter in so many words, from the Israel block, is this is war, so sad, but a necessary FUCK’m. My bottom line, continues to be, which I acknowledge you disagree with, is don’t be an apologist for monstrous behavior on one State’s behalf (Hamas who are in control of Gaza) while turning a blind eye to the other State‘s genocidal behavior (Israel).

Of course war is monstrous. Killing is monstrous. Israel didn't start this one, Hamas did. I simply don't agree with your lowering of expectations when it comes to Hamas and raising of same with Israel. All your writing is about what Israel should stop doing but nothing about what Hamas should stop. How about stopping launching rockets into Israel and releasing the hostages? How about surrendering and ending the conflict that it is highly unlikely to win?

Bad karma- Not helping is a 40 year history in the area…

And now I think we have come to the crux of our disagreement. I assume you are well-meaning but you may not be aware of the history of the region if you are focused just on the past 40 years. The fact is that Arabs attacked historically Jewish towns in the region as far back as the late 19th century and early 20th century. For instance, from Wikipedia:
The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked.

Note that this was before any occupation, settlements or even the existence of the state of Israel. Those excuses were not needed. And after Israel was established hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had lived for centuries, with the result that there are literally a handful left in each of them, i.e. ethnic cleansing on a large scale.

What's my point? You want to blame Israel for just about everything wrong in the region and view the Palestinians as mere victims. Palestinian excesses are explained, if not justified, by Israel's actions but despite decades of Arab violence against Jews, especially the events of Oct. 7, Israel is supposed to play nice. You have expectations for Israel in war that no other nation in the world would follow.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Aure Free Press :verified: (@Free_Press@mstdn.social)

Attached: 1 video Near a clinic and a school in the north of the Gaza Strip: the soldiers of the 50th Battalion of the Nahal located one of the largest IMD deposits located in the Gaza Strip - long-range missiles aimed at the center of the country, hundreds of rockets and RPG launchers, dozens...

mstdn.social

The location is notable.

Israel and Egypt have been blockading Gaza in order to prevent the acquisition of such weapons. Apparently they have failed. This will only lead to even tighter control and of course more protest by the blame-Israel-for-everything crowd for it wanting to prevent its enemy from accumulating missiles.

And notice I said Egypt. It's so telling how in all of the discussion about the conditions in Gaza only Israel is mentioned.

 

[rdrr]

No doubt there are many casualties, but that number comes from Hamas so is highly suspicious. In any case, this argument of unfair and lopsided is one we usually hear regarding Israel and the Palestinians and it is so naive. So after Hamas killed over a thousand Israelis, Israel should respond but stop when there are the same number of Palestinian casualties? Then wait until Hamas kills, what?, another five hundred Israelis for Israel to re-engage Hamas and then stop at five hundred?? Etc. Has any war in history ever been fought that way? That's basically letting Hamas control the conflict. And do you think for one second that if Hamas had the upper hand it would be worrying about what is fair or lopsided? Is it "unfair" for Hamas to be launching rockets from rooftops?

I agree that the numbers are probably inflated (some), but the overall casualties is so lopsided now and for much of the history of Palestine and Israel conflict that I feel people lose sight of. Sure the Hamas attacks on Oct 7th were horrific, but all Palestinians are not Hamas. Just like not all Republicans are MAGA.

I don't know what the answer is, other than Israel's response (in my opinion) is way disproportioned on the Palestinian people, compared to the Oct 7th attack on Israel. Even if you discount the death toll number by half, it is still over-reactionary. Remember that the death toll number exclude those paralyzed, maimed, loss of of limbs/sight/hearing, starving, displaced, loss of parents/children/family, and over all mental toll. Bottom line the Palestinians are people just like all of us who want to live with out the fear the next bomb changes everything.

Before this recent conflict look at the data. Israel may be a target, but they give back disproportionally.

Infographic: The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

This chart shows Israeli & Palestinian deaths/injuries documented by the UN in Gaza and the West Bank.

www.statista.com

 

[Huntn]

By "their making" you mean Israel? So you are blaming Israel for Gaza's slums and for them having no where to go. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, which included the army forcefully removing settlers. There were elections which Hamas won. That was the last election they allowed and they killed off all opponents including the Palestinian Authority. The billions in aid that they received over the years was not used to improve the condition of the people but rather to build up weaponry. They of course rule with an iron hand with the people having little or no means to protest. As for having somewhere to go, Hamas itself has blocked people from fleeing areas of fighting. I'm not saying Israel is perfect, no nation is, but you seem to want to put all blame on Israel whereas Hamas could have done so much more over the years to alleviate the condition in Gaza.

And your response to my question of what you think Israel should do to stop rocket fire into its civilian areas is your "way out." A way out of what? Conflict with Hamas? If Israel stopped all actions do you think Hamas would also? They have already vowed to take any opportunity to repeat the horrific events of Oct. 7. It's not fighting for a two state solution or even seems to be very concerned about the condition of Gazans. It's a movement driven by a fanatical religious goal of cleansing the region of Jews, Christians and any other infidels. So you have still failed to provide any practical alternative for Israel other than to allow its citizens to continue to be killed.

What an astonishingly inappropriate analogy to make. I don't think Jewish militias committed the horrific acts that Hamas did on Oct. 7. I don't think Jews were firing thousands of rockets into German cities or calling for the eradication of Germany.

Of course war is monstrous. Killing is monstrous. Israel didn't start this one, Hamas did. I simply don't agree with your lowering of expectations when it comes to Hamas and raising of same with Israel. All your writing is about what Israel should stop doing but nothing about what Hamas should stop. How about stopping launching rockets into Israel and releasing the hostages? How about surrendering and ending the conflict that it is highly unlikely to win?

And now I think we have come to the crux of our disagreement. I assume you are well-meaning but you may not be aware of the history of the region if you are focused just on the past 40 years. The fact is that Arabs attacked historically Jewish towns in the region as far back as the late 19th century and early 20th century. For instance, from Wikipedia:
The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked.

Note that this was before any occupation, settlements or even the existence of the state of Israel. Those excuses were not needed. And after Israel was established hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had lived for centuries, with the result that there are literally a handful left in each of them, i.e. ethnic cleansing on a large scale.

What's my point? You want to blame Israel for just about everything wrong in the region and view the Palestinians as mere victims. Palestinian excesses are explained, if not justified, by Israel's actions but despite decades of Arab violence against Jews, especially the events of Oct. 7, Israel is supposed to play nice. You have expectations for Israel in war that no other nation in the world would follow.

I am knowlegible about the beginnings of Israel friom its inception.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

I am knowlegible about the beginnings of Israel friom its inception.

Not sure what you mean by inception, but if it's 1948 then as I hinted you are missing a lot of the background that helps in understanding the present reality.

 

[mac_in_tosh]

Israel may be a target, but they give back disproportionally.

They give back disproportionally in part because they have better weapons, but more relevant because Hamas intentionally endangers people by shooting from crowded areas in Gaza city. (And no, that's not their only option as the recent post about a weapons cache in the north of the Gaza strip shows).

You haven't addressed my comments. What does proportional mean - Israel stops attempting to destroy Hamas rocket launchers when an equal number of Gazans are killed and then waits for more Israeli casualties before continuing its operations? No other nation would consider intentionally giving a weaker opponent the upper hand in determining the course of a war just to end up with a stalemate.

On Oct. 7 Hamas fired thousand of rockets more or less at random into Israeli civilian populated areas? Would the concept of proportionality allow Israel to do the same? Would it mean it could send the army into Gaza towns, commit the same horrific acts that Hamas did on that day and take hostages as long as it stayed below the casualty limit? Somehow even those "proportional" actions would be met with objections from the same crowd.

Maybe the reason for the lack of proportionality is that Israel has better weapons, maybe it has better defenses, maybe it has better strategy and battlefield intelligence. It's certainly not because Hamas limits Israeli casualties in order to be proportional. Maybe, after decades of conflict, many pre-dating the establishment of the state of Israel, Arabs should decide to stop attacking Israel.

 

[rdrr]

They give back disproportionally in part because they have better weapons, but more relevant because Hamas intentionally endangers people by shooting from crowded areas in Gaza city. (And no, that's not their only option as the recent post about a weapons cache in the north of the Gaza strip shows).

You haven't addressed my comments. What does proportional mean - Israel stops attempting to destroy Hamas rocket launchers when an equal number of Gazans are killed and then waits for more Israeli casualties before continuing its operations? No other nation would consider intentionally giving a weaker opponent the upper hand in determining the course of a war just to end up with a stalemate.

On Oct. 7 Hamas fired thousand of rockets more or less at random into Israeli civilian populated areas? Would the concept of proportionality allow Israel to do the same? Would it mean it could send the army into Gaza towns, commit the same horrific acts that Hamas did on that day and take hostages as long as it stayed below the casualty limit? Somehow even those "proportional" actions would be met with objections from the same crowd.

Maybe the reason for the lack of proportionality is that Israel has better weapons, maybe it has better defenses, maybe it has better strategy and battlefield intelligence. It's certainly not because Hamas limits Israeli casualties in order to be proportional. Maybe, after decades of conflict, many pre-dating the establishment of the state of Israel, Arabs should decide to stop attacking Israel.

Proportional means that for every Hamas militant killed by IDF, they have killed 2 Palestinians, and that should not be marginalized. That is unacceptable, and quite frankly it is a disgusting statistic that Israel and those to chose to defend the current conflict shrug their shoulders at. You keep on punching the word Hamas in your responses to defend Israel action, and just whistling by the innocent lives lost. I am merely pointing out the sheer numbers of Palestinians that have been caught up in this conflict and the lives have been just surmised down to a shoulder shrug. Not every Palestinian is Hamas.

 

[Citysnaps]

A what if thought experiment...

What if Hamas somehow managed to build a massive underground tunnel network (a few hundred miles worth) into Israel, say North/Northeast of Gaza, under Israeli cities and infrastructure.

And from that network of tunnels under Israeli cities, Hamas terrorists repeatedly staged hit-and-run attacks against Israel causing many Israeli casualties.

Would you expect the IDF to retaliate in the same manner as they did in Gaza to efficiently kill Hamas terrorists (with thousands of bombs dropped from aircraft, artillery, etc), resulting with the consequence of killing thousands of innocent Palestinians? Except in this situation it would be thousands of innocent Israeli citizens being killed as a consequence.

Or would you expect the IDF to eschew efficiency due to the resulting adverse consequences of thousands of innocent Israeli's being killed, and instead develop a more refined plan to deal with Hamas terrorists more directly, having a high regard for protecting innocent Israeli civilians?

If the latter, that would suggest a much greater value is placed on Israeli innocent civilians than Palestinian innocent civilians.

From afar, I suspect many people would place equal value with respect to both.