Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[Herdfan]

I'm guessing that's because the world expects a civilized country to highly value and protect innocent civilians, and adhere to the various international conventions of war.

And there's little or no expectation a terrorist organization would do the same.

If those are the absolute rules of engagement, civilized countries will never win. The terrorists will.

I do wonder how people would feel if it were us being attacked. If our neighborhoods were under constant threat of bombardment.

 

[Citysnaps]

That's what Israel is trying to do. And let's not forget that Hamas is not some fringe terrorist group acting from within Gaza, they are the government of Gaza.

I know and am familiar with hamas. In the end they are still terrorists.

It's that in prosecuting a war there are always options in how it's accomplished, with a lot of trades to deal with. Many having adverse consequences. That's what military strategists game out ahead of time.

For example... the IDF spokesman referenced above characterized the two innocents killed for every hamas terrorist killed as "tremendously positive." While he likely believes that's an efficient strategy (dropping thousands of bomb from aircraft), others would strongly disagree with his "tremendously positive" two civilians killed for every terrorist as being ethical.

I would much rather see IDF military strategists strive for a better ratio, giving up some efficiency. Say, and I'm just pulling a number out of the air, four+ hamas terrorists killed (or better) for every innocent civilian killed.

What do you think the proper ratio should be?

 

[rdrr]

Most of that "collateral damage" is Hamas' fault for using human shields, placing its launchers on rooftops and preventing people from fleeing combat areas. But I guess you want all the blame to fall on Israel. Israel should do nothing to stop rocket fire (which intent is specifically to cause as many civilian casualties as possible) and just accept constant bombardment.

Just curious, what was the ratio of civilians to soldiers on Oct. 7 by the good guys?

Did I say that Oct 7th was ok? Nope! AND I think that anyone who was involved or aided that attack should have the full weight of any war crime thrown on to them.

I am pointing out the large disproportion of Palestinians, not Hamas being killed. That 2:1 ratio does not include the wounded or great humanitarian crisis going on. People are washing their hands of it and cheapening the lives lost on one side. Let's keep using the word Hamas, Hamas, Hamas and gloss over the fact that NOT EVERY PALESTINIAN is Hamas.

In the looooong conflict of Israel and Palestine (which ever combatant component was in charge then), there has always been one side that gets bloodier by a huge disproportionate ratio. The civilian population of Palestine.

I do think Israel has a right to be there and fight for their right to survive. However I do think Israel and their defenders, have put all Palestinians into the same category as Hamas (current combatant), to justify the 10,000+ deaths. And I do think Israel should be held accountable for it. Two things can be true at the same time you know.

 

[Citysnaps]

Suppose someone said that black people are incapable of acting in a civilized manner. Wouldn't that be racist? Isn't that what you're saying about Hamas? Aren't you saying that Israelis are somehow superior and thus more is to be expected from them? I know I'm being somewhat provocative here, but my point is that people too often place unrealistic conditions on what Israel should or shouldn't do, whereas Hamas is given something of a pass because, you know, they're just terrorists.

Espousing terrorism and being a terrorist has nothing to do with being a member of any race.

Proud Boys, Boko Haram, Shining Path, Black September, ISIS, Aum Shinrikyo, Al-Shabaab, Hizbollah, National Liberation Army, and on and on are spread out over most races.

 

[rdrr]

If those are the absolute rules of engagement, civilized countries will never win. The terrorists will.

I do wonder how people would feel if it were us being attacked. If our neighborhoods were under constant threat of bombardment.

Say its your community, or family, you think 2:1 is ok? Lets go back to carpet bombing, and take out Dallas, or Chicago.

 

[Citysnaps]

Lets go back to carpet bombing, and take out Dallas, or Chicago.

Yes, and with napalm, as we did in Viet Nam.

 

[Roller]

I would hope that as human beings we can all acknowledge that death of and injury to innocent civilians is always deplorable, regardless of the circumstances.

I have yet to read what a proportionate Israeli response would have looked like. No bombardment, with only building-by-building searches and street fighting? That would have accomplished almost nothing to degrade the capabilities of the Al-Qassam Brigades while incurring hundreds of IDF casualties. I assume none of us here are military experts, but I haven't heard much from them, either.

If the Arab countries in the Middle East were truly interested in helping the Palestinians, they would be participating in the effort to incapacitate Hamas instead of funding it and sheltering its leaders, as the Qataris have done. As I wrote previously, this is a lose-lose proposition for all concerned in the current circumstances.

And, while I understand the focus on the Israel-Hamas war, I don't see nearly as much attention being paid here or elsewhere to the carnage in Yemen, where the cumulative death toll is in the hundreds of thousands in what is essentially a proxy war.

 

[rdrr]

I would hope that as human beings we can all acknowledge that death of and injury to innocent civilians is always deplorable, regardless of the circumstances.

I have yet to read what a proportionate Israeli response would have looked like. No bombardment, with only building-by-building searches and street fighting? That would have accomplished almost nothing to degrade the capabilities of the Al-Qassam Brigades while incurring hundreds of IDF casualties. I assume none of us here are military experts, but I haven't heard much from them, either.

If the Arab countries in the Middle East were truly interested in helping the Palestinians, they would be participating in the effort to incapacitate Hamas instead of funding it and sheltering its leaders, as the Qataris have done. As I wrote previously, this is a lose-lose proposition for all concerned in the current circumstances.

And, while I understand the focus on the Israel-Hamas war, I don't see nearly as much attention being paid here or elsewhere to the carnage in Yemen, where the cumulative death toll is in the hundreds of thousands in what is essentially a proxy war.

I agree with you mostly, and by no means am I a military strategist. However, when I see photos like the the attached, I do wonder if there is something that a formatible military like the IDF could do between this and systematic building by building clearing?

Is This a Real Photo of Part of the Gaza Strip Left in Ruins by Israeli Reprisal Attacks?

"A look at what the Israeli army have done in the Gaza Strip in a very short time," one X user captioned the photograph.

www.snopes.com

 

[Citysnaps]

I agree with you mostly, and by no means am I a military strategist. However, when I see photos like the the attached, I do wonder if there is something that a formatible military like the IDF could do between this and systematic building by building clearing?

Is This a Real Photo of Part of the Gaza Strip Left in Ruins by Israeli Reprisal Attacks?

"A look at what the Israeli army have done in the Gaza Strip in a very short time," one X user captioned the photograph.

www.snopes.com

View attachment 27578

What's really sad is that's a typical photograph of the carnage and not cherry-picked.

As an aside, I've found The PBS News Hour (3pm Pacific time, and also streamed on YouTube) has the most complete and in-depth coverage of what's happening there. Total respect to their journalists and camera operators.

BBC News also offers excellent coverage.

I do wonder if there is something that a formatible military like the IDF could do between this and systematic building by building clearing?

I believe there is.

 

[Alli]

What?

Absolutely not. I NEVER made that assertion.

Did you not call for a ceasefire from Israel? (But not Hamas.)

 

[Citysnaps]

Did you not call for a ceasefire from Israel? (But not Hamas.)

I called for a ceasefire? Where was that?

Nope.

How would that get Israel to the goal of totally eliminating hamas once and for all, as I've been advocating all along?

I would like to see Israel adjusting their strategy and prosecute the war differently so that far fewer innocent Palestinian civilians would be killed and maimed as a consequence.

And with that, the ratio of two Palestinian human beings killed for every hamas terrorist killed, characterized as "tremendously positive" by the IDF spokesperson, be changed accordingly to effect that outcome.

As an aside... I tip my cap to that IDF spokesperson's candidness and honesty. I have a feeling he may no longer be a spokesman going forward. A true politician would weasel and obfuscate. Something professional military folk don't do, from my experience.

 

[Roller]

As an aside... I tip my cap to that IDF spokesperson's candidness and honesty. I have a feeling he may no longer be a spokesman going forward. A true politician would weasel and obfuscate. Something professional military folk don't do, from my experience.

I don’t know many Israelis you’ve interacted with. In my experience, they’re the most candid people I’ve ever met - they tell you exactly what they think, absent most of the filters we’re used to. It was a bit unnerving the first time I went there.

Military spokespeople are probably more constrained, but still.

 

[Citysnaps]

I don’t know many Israelis you’ve interacted with. In my experience, they’re the most candid people I’ve ever met - they tell you exactly what they think, absent most of the filters we’re used to. It was a bit unnerving the first time I went there.

Military spokespeople are probably more constrained, but still.

Long ago, during my first career (developing systems in defense/aerospace) I've interacted with members of the US armed services, and some from Israel. Without exception, they were all straightforward, candid, friendly, curious, honest, very smart, eager to learn, professional, etc. All were a delight to work with.

 

[Alli]

I would like to see Israel adjusting their strategy and prosecute the war differently so that far fewer innocent Palestinian civilians would be killed and maimed as a consequence.

Just how do you propose that be done? If you can come up with a way, the entire world will be interested.

I don’t know many Israelis you’ve interacted with. In my experience, they’re the most candid people I’ve ever met - they tell you exactly what they think, absent most of the filters we’re used to. It was a bit unnerving the first time I went there.

OMG, ain’t that the truth. My mother’s side is Israeli, and sometimes what one of them says…whew! No filter whatsoever.

 

[Citysnaps]

Just how do you propose that be done? If you can come up with a way, the entire world will be interested.

Yes, after seeing the large number of innocent civilians killed and maimed in Gaza, the entire world is interested (and watching).

I’m far from being a professional military strategist… Thus, I’d suggest Israel continue to listen to Biden/Blinken (who are taking issue with Israel’s approach) and consult with their strategists, as well as those from other countries, and the UN.

Many are dissapointed with how Israel is prosecuting their war with hamas, resulting in many thousands of innocent Palestinians killed and maimed as a consequence. I suspect the 2:1 ratio of innocent civilians killed vs hamas terrorists killed being characterized by the IDF spokesperson as “tremendously positive” is viewed as callous.

I’m just spitballing, but one option would be trading off a lower hamas kill-efficiency with preserving more innocent lives. I’m *guessing* that could be achieved by far fewer bombs dropped from the safety of 10-20 thousand feet (preserving more innocent lives), and more IDF troops on the ground routing out hamas (with the downside of losing more IDF troops).

The US had a similar option with trades to consider when in war with Japan in the 1940s. And ultimately used atomic weapons, causing Japan to surrender after a few days, with roughly 250,000 innocent people killed as a consequence. The ethics of that are still being debated today. And no, I'm certainly not equating those two events and their outcomes. Just saying there are always options available.

 

[Roller]

Yes, after seeing the large number of innocent civilians killed and maimed in Gaza, the entire world is interested (and watching).

I’m far from being a professional military strategist… Thus, I’d suggest Israel continue to listen to Biden/Blinken (who are taking issue with Israel’s approach) and consult with their strategists, as well as those from other countries, and the UN.

Many are dissapointed with how Israel is prosecuting their war with hamas, resulting in many thousands of innocent Palestinians killed and maimed as a consequence. I suspect the 2:1 ratio of innocent civilians killed vs hamas terrorists killed being characterized by the IDF spokesperson as “tremendously positive” is viewed as callous.

I’m just spitballing, but one option would be trading off a lower hamas kill-efficiency with preserving more innocent lives. I’m *guessing* that could be achieved by far fewer bombs dropped from the safety of 10-20 thousand feet (preserving more innocent lives), and more IDF troops on the ground routing out hamas (with the downside of losing more IDF troops).

The US had a similar option with trades to consider when in war with Japan in the 1940s. And ultimately used atomic weapons, causing Japan to surrender after a few days, with roughly 250,000 innocent people killed as a consequence. The ethics of that are still being debated today. And no, I'm certainly not equating those two events and their outcomes. Just saying there are always options available.

Based on my reading about "proportionality" in the current conflict, it seems the predominant call is for Israel to simply accept a cease-fire, which by definition means stopping all military action. But what these "experts" don't say is what Israel should do when Hamas starts firing rockets again, which is reportedly what ended the most recent agreement and hostage/prisoner exchange. Fire the same number of rockets back at Gaza, which would be useless and branded as indiscriminate as Hamas launching at Israel?

What most people who comment on the war don't acknowledge, Israelis, especially in the south, live in constant fear of rocket attack, even during periods between wars. Imagine what it would be like to have to maintain safe rooms and shelters, knowing you and your family might need to seek refuge on a moment's notice at any time of the day or night. I've never been in Israel during an air raid alert, but I'm sure it's terrifying.

Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live peacefully. The problem is Hamas, which wants Israel wiped off the map. That's why Israel has said their goal is to destroy Hamas, which I don't believe is possible without obliterating Gaza, if then.

Unless the Arab states declare Hamas illegitimate and support a negotiated two-state solution, the cycle will continue. But that's unlikely to happen when some of those same states explicitly support Hamas.

 

[Citysnaps]

Based on my reading about "proportionality" in the current conflict, it seems the predominant call is for Israel to simply accept a cease-fire, which by definition means stopping all military action. But what these "experts" don't say is what Israel should do when Hamas starts firing rockets again, which is reportedly what ended the most recent agreement and hostage/prisoner exchange. Fire the same number of rockets back at Gaza, which would be useless and branded as indiscriminate as Hamas launching at Israel?

What most people who comment on the war don't acknowledge, Israelis, especially in the south, live in constant fear of rocket attack, even during periods between wars. Imagine what it would be like to have to maintain safe rooms and shelters, knowing you and your family might need to seek refuge on a moment's notice at any time of the day or night. I've never been in Israel during an air raid alert, but I'm sure it's terrifying.

Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live peacefully. The problem is Hamas, which wants Israel wiped off the map. That's why Israel has said their goal is to destroy Hamas, which I don't believe is possible without obliterating Gaza, if then.

Unless the Arab states declare Hamas illegitimate and support a negotiated two-state solution, the cycle will continue. But that's unlikely to happen when some of those same states explicitly support Hamas.

Absolutely. And that's why I've been saying, right from the beginning, that Israel's objective to totally *eliminate* hamas is the proper action, and is the only way to achieve long lasting security for Israel. There can be no negotiation on that.

 

[GermanSuplex]

I guess the question is how can Israel put the safety of its own people first while not harming innocent Palestinians? Can that be done? Going on a defense-only lockdown mode will keep its people safe, but will allow terrorists to regroup. I have no answers, not even as an opinionated internet forum poster. Fighting with people who have no moral compass is a very hard thing to do.

 

[Herdfan]

I guess this belongs here. But the President of UPenn has resigned, as has the Chair of the BOT.

Penn’s Leadership Resigns Amid Controversies Over Antisemitism (Published 2023)

The president, Elizabeth Magill, and the chairman of the board of trustees, Scott L. Bok, are leaving after intense pressure from donors, politicians and alumni.

www.nytimes.com

All because she refused to say if students calling for the genocide of Jews should be punished. WTF? If they were calling for Muslims, Blacks, Gays or any other protected class to be killed, they would be off campus before they put their megaphones down.

They are still coming for the Presidents of Harvard & MIT who also testified at the same hearing and refused to give answers.

I realize it has been a long time since I was in college, but I don't remember there being an issue over anyone's religion.

 

[Yoused]

My mother tells me there are a bunch of real estate speculators salivating hard over all that beach-front property. Nothing more fun than another round of disaster capitalism.