Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

Roller said:
I don't think it will, either, but the alternative is continued death and injury on both sides.
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*Maybe* if Israel can indeed totally eliminate hamas, that will foster a fresh start for Gaza with more options for governance being opened. I'm just speculating...
 
They may have to occupy the territory and release it back to a true government. I’m not saying I hope that happens, but from Israel’s standpoint, the only thing ceasefires do is allow people with no morals time to plot their next debauched act.

You are negotiating with true lunatics and their enablers. Israel can go into a ceasefire or negotiation with the best of intentions, then some gaggle of thugs will regroup and plot the next baby they’ll murder or woman they’ll rape and kill for their own entertainment. Hamas strikes again, there’s more bloodshed and Israel gets blamed again for not doing enough to prevent carnage.
 
I personally would rather see the entire levantine state come under Chinese jurisdiction. The Muslims would hate that and so would the Jews, but at least all the oppression would be even-handed.
 
GermanSuplex said:
They may have to occupy the territory and release it back to a true government. I’m not saying I hope that happens, but from Israel’s standpoint, the only thing ceasefires do is allow people with no morals time to plot their next debauched act.

You are negotiating with true lunatics and their enablers. Israel can go into a ceasefire or negotiation with the best of intentions, then some gaggle of thugs will regroup and plot the next baby they’ll murder or woman they’ll rape and kill for their own entertainment. Hamas strikes again, there’s more bloodshed and Israel gets blamed again for not doing enough to prevent carnage.
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As terrorists, Hamas can’t be trusted, though negotiations for hostage/prisoner exchanges did achieve some success. But Israel’s current prosecution of the war is achieving diminishing returns. To further reduce Hamas’s capabilities, the IDF will also have to destroy the southern part of Gaza, where they’ve told the Palestinians to flee. And if they do that, they’ll be left occupying a wasteland, with no guarantee Hamas won’t quickly regroup to terrorize Israel.

That’s why the endless cycle will repeat without a major shift in attitude and politics, which I’m afraid won’t happen, especially with Netanyahu still in power.
 
These holy wars are barely a step above male animals fighting over mates. Actually worse - less logical, necessary and humane even.

I wonder how much of this is actual ideology - and there’s a lot to be sure - but also how much of it is just nomads addicted to getting to live out the sickest of their fantasies? How do you change that? It’s a big region with a lot of people devoted to their causes and not a whole lot else to do.
 
Citysnaps said:
*Maybe* if Israel can indeed totally eliminate hamas, that will foster a fresh start for Gaza with more options for governance being opened. I'm just speculating...
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I don't have hopes of totally eliminating hamas. Even if they were able to in some what, the absolute horrific things that are happening over there will supply recruits of hamas, or another newly named group.
 
Yoused said:
Also, I think it is very important to make the distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Anti-semitism is animosity toward Jews in general, whereas anti-zionism is either opposition to Zionist rule in the levantine state which is Israel, or firm disagreement with the manner in which Israel is running that state. BDS is anti-zionist, in the policy category, but calling it anti-semitic is questionable, as, IIUC, some of its membership are actually Jewish.
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You're correct, in theory. But practically, I think the distinction is all-too-often blurred by people who make their feelings known publicly, whether it's at demonstrations, in print, online, or by some other method. The ongoing situation in the Middle East has enabled anti-Semites to spread vitriol while claiming they're just showing their opposition to Israel's policies. It's evident in the sharp rise in episodes of anti-Semitism since October 7, especially pronouncements of support for Hamas's actions on that day.

For those who claim we Jews are overly sensitive to criticism, I say that doesn't take into account thousands of years of persecution. Repeatedly throughout history, Jews have been accepted and then exiled, culminating with the slaughter of six million in the Holocaust. Jews in the U.S. and other western countries have generally felt safe since, but that sense of safety is eroding quickly.
 
Roller said:
For those who claim we Jews are overly sensitive to criticism, I say that doesn't take into account thousands of years of persecution. Repeatedly throughout history, Jews have been accepted and then exiled, culminating with the slaughter of six million in the Holocaust. Jews in the U.S. and other western countries have generally felt safe since, but that sense of safety is eroding quickly.
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I know the left no longer likes Bill Maher, but in his opening the other night he showed a chart showing how many Jews there were majority Muslim countries in 1947?? and now there are almost none there today. Because they were exiled.

So yeah, many of these people have no knowledge of history.
 
Herdfan said:
I know the left no longer likes Bill Maher, but in his opening the other night he showed a chart showing how many Jews there were majority Muslim countries in 1947?? and now there are almost none there today. Because they were exiled.

So yeah, many of these people have no knowledge of history.
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Why do you so often have to point at the what the left is doing to make any point? Usually that point is off topic or introducing a some sort of Jab that doesn't have any relevance to the discussion. Who the f cares what side likes or dislikes Bill Maher?

Why don't you look at your own side and especially your MAGA friends before you start casting stones at the left. For their perceived antisemitic stance for not supporting Israel and point out that they are killing thousands of innocent lives, to support an endeavor that now has little world support.
 
rdrr said:
Why do you so often have to point at the what the left is doing to make any point? Usually that point is off topic or introducing a some sort of Jab that doesn't have any relevance to the discussion. Who the f cares what side likes or dislikes Bill Maher?

Why don't you look at your own side and especially your MAGA friends before you start casting stones at the left. For their perceived antisemitic stance for not supporting Israel and point out that they are killing thousands of innocent lives, to support an endeavor that now has little world support.
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Because if I simply quoted him, I get shit because apparently he is no longer "left" enough. So I put a disclaimer that the left no longer likes him. Can't win either way. :(

And sorry, but I am going to support Israel until the last HAMAS fighter is dead and buried. That is the only way they will have any semblance of peace.

Pretty sure most of the GOP politicians support Israel. I know some far-right skinheads and Arian groups hate Jews: they pretty much hate everyone that isn't them, but most of the normal Republicans do support Israel and the Jewish people. Can't say that about the Democrats.
 
Herdfan said:
Because if I simply quoted him, I get shit because apparently he is no longer "left" enough. So I put a disclaimer that the left no longer likes him. Can't win either way. :(

And sorry, but I am going to support Israel until the last HAMAS fighter is dead and buried. That is the only way they will have any semblance of peace.

Pretty sure most of the GOP politicians support Israel. I know some far-right skinheads and Arian groups hate Jews: they pretty much hate everyone that isn't them, but most of the normal Republicans do support Israel and the Jewish people. Can't say that about the Democrats.
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Donald and is core support Antisemitic folks, and not one condemnation from the GOP on the matter. Sure the GOP is so above board :rolleyes:, but underneath they are just a bunch or bigoted, antisemitic, hateful people, that until 2016 use to not speak the quiet things out loud.

And to get to your goal of every hamas fighter dead and buried, you have to kill over 2 innocent Palestinians that are predominately women and children. That is a goal that sickens me, and if there was a shred of decency of any people that support that goal, that should also be a red line.
 
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rdrr said:
And to get to your goal every hamas fighter dead and buried, you have to kill over 2 innocent Palestinians that are predominately women and children. That is a goal that sickens me, and if there was a shred of decency of any people that support that goal, that should also be a red line.
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It appears the US administration is quickly losing patience over that. IIRC, this will be Lloyd Austin's third trip to Israel over short period of time. Jake Sullivan has been there a few times as well.
 
rdrr said:
Donald and is core support Antisemitic folks, and not one condemnation from the GOP on the matter.
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You may want to rethink this notion that we blame candidates for who might support them. Both sides have people who they want their votes, but don't support what they support.
 
Herdfan said:
You may want to rethink this notion that we blame candidates for who might support them. Both sides have people who they want their votes, but don't support what they support.
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Maybe you should look closer. I was responding your constant beating of the drum about how antisemitic the left is. I am merely pointing out the GOP is no safe haven or friends of Israel, and before you start spouting your usual talking points, maybe you need to open up your eyes.
 
This is a good documentary covering how hamas was able to breach Israeli security measures and fences to launch the October 7th attack on Israel. The production was a collaboration by PBS Frontline and the Washington Post.

www.pbs.org

Failure at the Fence | FRONTLINE

Watch FRONTLINE and The Washington Post's documentary on how Hamas was able to breach Israel’s vaunted security barrier on Oct. 7 and carry out its attack.
www.pbs.org
 
GermanSuplex said:
These holy wars are barely a step above male animals fighting over mates. Actually worse - less logical, necessary and humane even.

I wonder how much of this is actual ideology - and there’s a lot to be sure - but also how much of it is just nomads addicted to getting to live out the sickest of their fantasies? How do you change that? It’s a big region with a lot of people devoted to their causes and not a whole lot else to do.
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Economic opportunity and prosperity is how you change that. The leaders of both sides know that but they also know that means substantially less wealth and power for them. So wholesale slaughtering the masses to maintain their wealth and power it is.
 
rdrr said:
Maybe you should look closer. I was responding your constant beating of the drum about how antisemitic the left is. I am merely pointing out the GOP is no safe haven or friends of Israel, and before you start spouting your usual talking points, maybe you need to open up your eyes.
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The right definitely has their share of antisemites- from what I can discern more often than not rednecks from rural America who have never actually interacted with a Jew in their lifetime, or at least knowingly. But the right also it’s evangelical cohort that tends to be extremely philosemitic considering Jews are essential to their whole end-times prophecy (which is pretty self serving). The issue I see on the right is not rampant antisemitism, rather the tolerance for it in their ranks.

The left-wing antisemitism is far more subtle but definitely exists and is rather insidious. When you impose an ideology, especially among young people, that all discrepancies in outcomes between groups of people is exclusively the result of power imbalance and that life is a zero-sum game where the only way those that have resources is because they’ve unfairly stolen them from the have nots… it’s not surprise that Jews who are disproportionately successful in the US have targets painted on their backs. And Israel being the Jewish State is held to totally different standards than any other country.

As a Jew, I have plenty of criticisms for Israel. Since before this war even started I had concerns about the ability to meet their goals and how the optics would unroll. Israel historically took extreme actions to avoid civilian deaths to their own tactical disadvantage and yet was always portrayed as the one committing evil. And yet the “pro-Palestinian activists” will never hold Hamas responsible for anything, let alone identify Hamas is an oppressive, authoritarian regime. Hmmm.

I think we need to think about the future of our culture and if we want to live in a society where those who are successful are automatically the enemy and those without are automatically oppressed victims (by the successful). Things are compounded when young people generally have zero sense of history and historical context, at best probably only understood through the aforementioned lens of oppressor/victim. This is an ideology designed to tear apart society. When you have large swaths of society supporting Hamas it clear we’re on a bad track.
 
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