Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[AG_PhamD]

The best response would be: Wasn't Jared Kushner supposed to handle the peace deals in that region? So why did this happen?
(I know that he most likely wasn't cut out for that work anyway. And I guess he was much more interested to set up the $2 billion deal with the Saudis.)

Just a FYI Jared Kushner’s peace plans never included Palestine or Iran in the sense of creating harmony. Basically the concept was to leave Palestine out of the conversation because including them was never successful (or frankly going to be when there is no desire to cooperate). Instead the goal was to forge relationships with the UAE and Bahrain, and eventually the Saudis. Previously the UAE and Bahrain refused recognize Israel, allow travel/commerce, etc. And while Saudi Arabia has not yet normalized relations, in part because the king is still sympathetic to Palestine while the price is not, SA and Israel work together quite a bit outside of the public view. Had trump won in 2020 SA would likely be officially signed on- it’s still happening, albeit much slower now. So basically the message to countries like Palestine and Iran is like the world is changing, Israel does have the right to exist, and we’re moving ahead with or without you and you’re only being more isolated by denying Israel’s existence. And indeed the accomplishments made cannot be understated given the history.

I think Kushner is corrupt as they get and frankly should be investigated with the same scrutiny as Hunter Biden, but the normalization of relations between the involved nations is not something to scoff at. It’s a massive amount of progress given 70 years of conflict, hate, and mistrust. Credit where credit is due, even if it’s from a degenerate line Kushner.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Biden has been very good at his press events these last few days. His tone, the things he says and his retorts are great. I have no clue how the American hostages situation will play out, but I really liked Biden’s answer (before the question was asked!) about them today - essentially, “I’m going to get them home, but I’m not going to tell you how.”



That’s a tall order and I hope things don’t go south. It’s WAY too early to commend Biden on how he handles this war, or to criticize him. But he is a president and acts like one.

This is a heavy, heavy burden for an American president. Trump will just say “This would never have happened if I was president”, but of course will offer no advice on what he would do if he were. And that’s a dumb argument anyway. Case in point, I don’t believe any of this would have happened if I were the president. Prove me wrong. So a hypothetical means nothing. Means about as much as Biden saying “This COVID virus never would have made it into America had I been president”.

 

[Alli]

She may be alive! Her mother has said that she's been furnished with proof that Shani is alive, but in critical condition with a head wound in a Gaza hospital.

That would be wonderful. We got news that a friend’s cousin was not so lucky and her body was found this morning.

Inexcusable, the amount of Hamas hate and atrocities. They have turned it into we scorch you, or you scorch us situation and Israel will be sure to oblige them, along with many of the 2M citizens living in Gaza becoming “justified“ victims. A legitimate question might be how much oppression can Israel deal out, before people strike back?

Keep in mind that Hamas’ only reason for existence is to wipe out Israel. They don’t actually care if they kill Palestinians in order to reach that goal.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Biden has been very good at his press events these last few days. His tone, the things he says and his retorts are great. I have no clue how the American hostages situation will play out, but I really liked Biden’s answer (before the question was asked!) about them today - essentially, “I’m going to get them home, but I’m not going to tell you how.”



That’s a tall order and I hope things don’t go south. It’s WAY too early to commend Biden on how he handles this war, or to criticize him. But he is a president and acts like one.

This is a heavy, heavy burden for an American president. Trump will just say “This would never have happened if I was president”, but of course will offer no advice on what he would do if he were. And that’s a dumb argument anyway. Case in point, I don’t believe any of this would have happened if I were the president. Prove me wrong. So a hypothetical means nothing. Means about as much as Biden saying “This COVID virus never would have made it into America had I been president”.

Going with the theme with giving credit where it’s due, I too am satisfied with Biden’s response. He knows better than anyone what it’s like to tragically lose loved ones and you feel the depth of his words. At the same time, his response is measured and sober unlike some other politicians. And let’s be honest, Obama-Biden didn’t not have a great track record on foreign policy decisions, Biden especially. I was afraid he would say something stupid that undermined the atrocities that took place to try to appease the insane faction of the far left that seems to think this is entirely the responsibility of Israel.

Of course Trump would say that, a totally unprovable statement. I’m not convinced of that at all, especially because Palestine and Iran’s actions likely are a manifestation of the frustration of Trump’s M.E. Policy, which did not give any leniency. That said, it cannot be denied Biden is seen as incredibly weak- 1. The disastrous ad Hoc Afghanistan withdrawal. 2. Concessions provided by the Biden admin to Iran 3. Profound m change in support of Israel by the US/Euro left in favor of Palestine 4.The fact everyone who is remotely honest with themselves is “questioning” his age and competency level now and in a second term. We can see some nations have become exceptionally brash in the past few years at the very least testing the Biden admin. I have no doubt Putin waa banking on Joe effectively rolling over on Ukraine just like Obama in 2014.

Trump on the other hand was far more aggressive, willing to say things never uttered in diplomatic circles, and was generally just unpredictable- one minute threatening to nuke N. Korea, the next writing Kim Jong Un love letters and visiting the DMZ. For that I think the bad actors were less likely to start trouble. But Hamas couldn’t care less about America’s leader and potential response or lack thereof- they’re so radical they don’t care about to consequences up to and including death. They’d be happy to be martyrs. US leasership has never been a factor for them. Iran’s level of support for Hamas may be a slightly different story though.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I have some mixed feelings about this “total siege” of Gaza. If they allow millions to begin to starve I don’t think this will look very good on the world stage. Nor do I want to see millions suffering from a lack of food and water. On the other hand, I can see Israel providing humanitarian aid to civilians once they obtain relative control, but I imagine Hamas will threaten civilians not to accept any aid.

I’m also curious about the legal implications- not that really means anything during a time of war. Certainly Hamas has not been following the Geneva convention. I guess I don’t see what obligation Israel has to be providing any supplies or energy to Palestine. They just won’t allow anything through their boarders with Gaza. (Maybe Gaza would have power if they didn’t spend all their money on building tunnels and buying weapons?) The Egypt border is always an option for Hamas, they certainty smuggled plenty of weapons in through their tunnels, perhaps they can get food in that way too.

Sarcasm aside, presumably to end the siege Hamas could unilaterally surrender. If they don’t want their civilians to suffer, they don’t have to.

For all the people saying an Israel is the oppressor, the occupier, the ones holding the keys to an “open air prison”, can we just remember that Hamas was elected in 2006-07. Hamas has not allowed an election since- 17 years!! Lookup the civil rights afforded (or lack thereof) by Hamas- how they treat women, homosexuals, the ideas of democracy and self determination. How they squander foreign aid on weapons, extensive weapons smuggling infrastructure, and radicalizing their citizens rather than enriching civilians lives. Other than when they offer civilians (to them) massive sums of money to try to get shot by Israeli border guards- more money for the more dramatic injuries. I don’t consider that enrichment. Tell me again about how it is Israel preventing.Palestinians from being free and prosperous. Hamas is an authoritarian regime that has created this hellscape for its supposed people- but to them they are not people, they are pawns.

 

[dada_dave]

I have some mixed feelings about this “total siege” of Gaza. If they allow millions to begin to starve I don’t think this will look very good on the world stage. Nor do I want to see millions suffering from a lack of food and water. On the other hand, I can see Israel providing humanitarian aid to civilians once they obtain relative control, but I imagine Hamas will threaten civilians not to accept any aid.

I’m also curious about the legal implications- not that really means anything during a time of war. Certainly Hamas has not been following the Geneva convention. I guess I don’t see what obligation Israel has to be providing any supplies or energy to Palestine. They just won’t allow anything through their boarders with Gaza. (Maybe Gaza would have power if they didn’t spend all their money on building tunnels and buying weapons?) The Egypt border is always an option for Hamas, they certainty smuggled plenty of weapons in through their tunnels, perhaps they can get food in that way too.

They certainly do. That's why we have things called war crimes, which putting a city under complete siege and completely denying food, water, energy, medicines is absolutely one. Those laws, which Israel is a signatory of, are extremely clear and unequivocal on that point. There are many times the laws are situational, even debatable, this isn't one of them. That your enemy doesn't follow them doesn't absolve you from following them.

Sarcasm aside, presumably to end the siege Hamas could unilaterally surrender. If they don’t want their civilians to suffer, they don’t have to.

For all the people saying an Israel is the oppressor, the occupier, the ones holding the keys to an “open air prison”, can we just remember that Hamas was elected in 2006-07. Hamas has not allowed an election since- 17 years!! Lookup the civil rights afforded (or lack thereof) by Hamas- how they treat women, homosexuals, the ideas of democracy and self determination. How they squander foreign aid on weapons, extensive weapons smuggling infrastructure, and radicalizing their citizens rather than enriching civilians lives. Other than when they offer civilians (to them) massive sums of money to try to get shot by Israeli border guards- more money for the more dramatic injuries. I don’t consider that enrichment. Tell me again about how it is Israel preventing.Palestinians from being free and prosperous. Hamas is an authoritarian regime that has created this hellscape for its supposed people- but to them they are not people, they are pawns.

Yeah ... and that absolves Israel how exactly? especially when you factor in that the increasingly extreme right wing governments controlling Israel's policy since that entire time was to prop up Hamas to prevent a two-state solution and keep the PLA powerless to negotiate. The people of Gaza absolutely are treated as pawns, by both Hamas and Israel.

 

[dada_dave]

Going with the theme with giving credit where it’s due, I too am satisfied with Biden’s response. He knows better than anyone what it’s like to tragically lose loved ones and you feel the depth of his words. At the same time, his response is measured and sober unlike some other politicians. And let’s be honest, Obama-Biden didn’t not have a great track record on foreign policy decisions, Biden especially. I was afraid he would say something stupid that undermined the atrocities that took place to try to appease the insane faction of the far left that seems to think this is entirely the responsibility of Israel.

Of course Trump would say that, a totally unprovable statement. I’m not convinced of that at all, especially because Palestine and Iran’s actions likely are a manifestation of the frustration of Trump’s M.E. Policy, which did not give any leniency. That said, it cannot be denied Biden is seen as incredibly weak- 1. The disastrous ad Hoc Afghanistan withdrawal. 2. Concessions provided by the Biden admin to Iran 3. Profound m change in support of Israel by the US/Euro left in favor of Palestine 4.The fact everyone who is remotely honest with themselves is “questioning” his age and competency level now and in a second term. We can see some nations have become exceptionally brash in the past few years at the very least testing the Biden admin. I have no doubt Putin waa banking on Joe effectively rolling over on Ukraine just like Obama in 2014.

Trump on the other hand was far more aggressive, willing to say things never uttered in diplomatic circles, and was generally just unpredictable- one minute threatening to nuke N. Korea, the next writing Kim Jong Un love letters and visiting the DMZ. For that I think the bad actors were less likely to start trouble. But Hamas couldn’t care less about America’s leader and potential response or lack thereof- they’re so radical they don’t care about to consequences up to and including death. They’d be happy to be martyrs. US leasership has never been a factor for them. Iran’s level of support for Hamas may be a slightly different story though.

Aggressive? Trump was a moron, easily led by the nose, who weakened our position around the globe. He has barely acknowledged the Hamas attacks took place and when he finally did he slurred his words so badly people couldn't make out who "Hummus" was supposed to be - not because of any emotional empathy on his part, he hasn't got any, but he's simply degraded so badly, which considering his low starting point is really something that he makes the argument about Biden's age and mental competency laughable. Trump then went on to call Hezbollah "very smart" and called the Israeli defense minister a jerk, because of putting Gaza under siege you ask?, nope, for warning off Hezbollah from attacking and "giving away that Israel is weak from the north". Note no such major attack by Hezbollah took place.

The whole point of the Ukraine War has shown why solidarity with Europe is crucial to US interests and foreign policy which Trump undercut and was set to undercut further had he won. Trump doesn't care about US interests, he only cares about Trump. He attempted to use Ukraine aid to blackmail Ukraine into helping smear Biden. That's exactly the kind of transactional asshole the Russians want in power. Further, there's is a reason why Trump's most stalwart allies in the Congress/Senate want to cut Ukraine funding completely and have done everything they can to kill it. That's another reason why the Russians are so desperate to get him back in power, although they really like Vivek now too.

Trump was the architect of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, even tried to make it worse by forcing it in the last day of his office so Biden would start in a crisis. The biggest criticism you can level, and I do, against Biden was that he failed to fix the worst parts of it but there was nothing he could do on the salient points and the ultimate outcome would have been the same. While this attack, according to Hamas, was two years in the planning, it's not clear how much Iran or Hezbollah knew, but if Iran's level of material support went up during that time and before it, that would have been more tied to the assassination of Suleimani than a comparatively recent prisoner swap for humanitarian aid deal, the latter of which hasn't even been fulfilled.

Basically everything you wrote here, other than your correct assessment that Jared's ME policy was a disaster and more or less contributed to this crisis, somehow managed to be wrong and much it failed by way of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy we are supposedly taught to avoid in school.

 

[dada_dave]

B.A. Friedman on Israel's strategic theory of "Decisive Victory" for the IDF and how it has been designed to fight.

The IDF's Decisive Victory Concept

A quick look

bafriedman.substack.com

So the IDF is reducing manpower and replacing it with digital technology and increased firepower. Maybe the IDF should ask Russia how that worked out for its Battalion Tactical Groups.

Additionally, replacing manpower with firepower in an operational environment like the Gaza Strip (an incredibly dense urban area) is a recipe for civilian casualties, unintentional and intentional. This is handing an important advantage to Hamas, doing their own work for them. Technology will do nothing to mitigate this, especially as Hamas employs human shields.

This kind of warfare also requires a high number of highly-trained professionals and a high number of interactions between them to complete the coordination necessary to be effective. The IDF, as a mostly conscript-based army, only has a limited number of personnel that can operate at the level required by this concept in real-world situation.

Unfortunately, it looks like the IDF is the latest victim of RMA thinking: that technology can banish the fog of war and replace tactical excellence, operational art, and strategic thinking. It can’t and it won’t.

 

[Huntn]

That would be wonderful. We got news that a friend’s cousin was not so lucky and her body was found this morning.

Keep in mind that Hamas’ only reason for existence is to wipe out Israel. They don’t actually care if they kill Palestinians in order to reach that goal.

At this point to say the goal is to destroy Israel, it puts them in the position of destroying you. But there are 2M Palestinians arguable the under dogs, living in Gaza and the more Palestinians they kill the more this historical conflict will be perpetuated. Reaping what is sewn.

It can legitimately be said these Hamas are animals, but the historical context must be considered, the creation of Israel at the expense of Palestinians for the last 70 years along with the continued oppression of Palestinians so Israel can feel safe, but they are not safe .

• Creation of Israel orchestrated by the BrIrish, US and UN in British Controlled Palestine (their colony?) at the expense of Palestinians and Israel has been oppressing them and been in conflict ever since.
• Many Arabs saw the influx of Jews as a European colonial movement, and the two peoples fought bitterly
• Israel took 77% of the Palestinian lands and was taking more and more in the West Bank myopically feeling that it was their right to do so.
• Many Palestinians view Israel, as a might makes right, terrorist State.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52756427

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/12/israel-is-a-terrorist-state/

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080016/israel-zionism-war-1948

Social and political developments in Europe convinced Jews they needed their own country, and their ancestral homeland seemed like the right place to establish it. European Jews — 90 percent of all Jews at the time — arrived at Zionism partly because of rising anti-Semitic persecution and partly because the Enlightenment introduced Jews to secular nationalism. Between 1896 and 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jews resettled from Europe to what was then British-controlled Palestine, including large numbers forced out of Europe during the Holocaust.

Many Arabs saw the influx of Jews as a European colonial movement, and the two peoples fought bitterly. The British couldn’t control the violence, and in 1947 the United Nations voted to split the land into two countries. Almost all of the roughly 650,000 Jews went to the blue territory in the map to the right, and a majority of the Arab population (roughly twice the size of the Jewish community) went to the orange.

The Jewish residents accepted the deal. The Palestinians, who saw the plan as an extension of a long-running Jewish attempt push them out of the land, fought it. The Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria all later declared war on Israel, as well (albeit not to defend the Palestinians).

Israeli forces defeated the Palestinian militias and Arab armies in a vicious conflict that turned 700,000 Palestinian civilians into refugees. The UN partition promised 56 percent of British Palestine for the Jewish state; by the end of the war, Israel possessed 77 percent — everything except the West Bank and the eastern quarter of Jerusalem (controlled by Jordan), as well as the Gaza Strip (controlled by Egypt). It left Israelis with a state, but not Palestinians.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Some Hamas members want to release the women and children hostages because they think it will reduce global support. “Massacring hundreds of festival goes and killing entire families in their homes should really rally world support. Killing babies, chef’s kiss. But putting women and children on the execution conveyor belt is a bad look. They’re starting to call us ISIS. Fuck ISIS! And The People’s Popular Judian Front! And the People’s Popular Front of Judia! Splitters!”

 

[Cmaier]

At this point to say the goal is to destroy Israel, it puts them in the position of destroying you. But there are 2M Palestinians arguable the under dogs, living in Gaza and the more Palestinians they kill the more this historical conflict will be perpetuated.

Israel has a long history of using the strategy of (what some would say Is) disproportionate responses to attacks by others, and the deterrent effect of that may be the only thing that has allowed Israel to survive.

 

[Huntn]

"Plop down a Jewish State?" You make it sound as if it was decided to found Israel in an area to which Jews had no historical claim, which is false. Jews have been in the region for thousands of years. This doesn't mean other people don't have a right to live there too, but the Arab states attacked Israel immediately after its declaration and several times since. Fortunately, some of them, notably Egypt and Jordan, eventually recognized Israel. Not so terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, whose objective is to completely obliterate the Jewish state.

It's also important to consider that Israel was founded immediately after the Holocaust, in which approximately six million Jews were slaughtered. Many Jews immigrated to and flourished in Western countries like the U.S., the U.K., and Canada, but Israel was, and still is, the only place we can call ours.

Have you ever been to Israel? Compared to other countries it's tiny, about the size of New Jersey. A bit over 260 miles in length and only around 6 miles wide at its narrowest, and much of it is arid or semi-arid. It should be possible for Israel to peacefully coexist with a Palestinian state next to it, but that's never been acceptable to Palestinian negotiators. Sadly, this has made it easier for horrible leaders like Netanyahu to maintain a constant state of turmoil and stay in power.

So it’s Jews > Palestinians… it was Palestinians who lost most of their land and who have been oppressed ever since by Israel, because the US, Brits, and UN decided that was ok. The Jews had no more of an historic claim over the Arabs who live there, so yes, their state was plopped down on top of the Palestinians.

Don’t confuse this for support of Hamas’s most recent actions.

 

[Cmaier]

So it’s Jews > Palestinians… it was Palestinians who lost most of their land and who have been oppressed ever since by Israel,

And nobody oppresses Jews, right?

 

[Eric]

I think as long as people fail to separate Palestinians from Hamas we're not going to get anywhere here. Nothing justifies the actions of Hamas and IMO defending their actions is sympathizing with terrorists.

There's conversation to be had about a two-state solution and the unjust actions against Palestine and their land, but indiscriminate murder is not the way to handle it and it only turns the world against them and their plight. This is right up there with 9/11, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the Holocaust.

 

[dada_dave]

Israel has a long history of using the strategy of (what some would say Is) disproportionate responses to attacks by others, and the deterrent effect of that may be the only thing that has allowed Israel to survive.

If the deterrent effect is deliberate disproportionate "collateral damage" to civilians to "deter" future aggression then that is a very similar attitude to a terrorist. And Israel has done plenty it didn't have to do to survive - including by the way actual full on terrorism in Palestine and the proto-Israeli state. For an example, look up Irgun and their actions. Even other Israelis accused them of war crimes, they attacked and massacred a village of Palestinians that had agreed to non-aggression. They killed over 100 men, women, and children. They paraded surrendered Palesitinians, just regular townsfolk, through the streets to be spat on and stoned in West Jerusalem and then executed. Does that sound familiar? It is believed that the Palestinians attacked Jewish settlers first at the creation of Israel, many Jewish civilians were killed as well. So again I don't put all the violence on Israel. Further most Israeli units did not behave this way and for years Israelis tried to exclude Irgun, but in the end they didn't arrest them, they collaborated. The leadership of Irgun was to later become Likud and featured prominent politicians such as future Prime Minister Begin. So their attempts to exclude them lasted only 30 years. After which Begin in 1982 tipped off the Lebanon War which included massacres of the local population by Israel aligned groups.

Let's not excuse "disproportionate responses" in the name of security. They don't deliver it. They never have, they never will.

So it’s Jews > Palestinians… it was Palestinians who lost most of their land and who have been oppressed ever since by Israel, because the US, Brits, and UN decided that was ok. The Jews had no more of an historic claim over the Arabs who live there, so yes, their state was plopped down on top of the Palestinians.

Don’t confuse this for support of Hamas’s most recent actions.

The history of the region is complex and difficult. I agree that simply an historical claim to the area is not enough. But given the circumstances of the 20th century and the centuries of oppression in Europe even prior to the Holocaust (of which the 20th century one was only the latest of several) the decisions made were more than understandable, even if not from the POV of the local Palestinian population. However, had the Arabs won in 1948 we'd be dealing with a whole other set of problems today and they were planning on happily exterminating the Jewish population that was already there. Hamas and other groups will happily do so were they to win today. Thus, their issue is not that the tactics employed but that they lost. Now, in my mind this does not absolve Israel. I do not believe in what is sometimes termed "historical justification" - that we completely accept the "morality of the time/place" to judge people. We know what Israel did in terms of ethnic cleansing in response was wrong and we know that they have continued to do so in the West Bank today and we know that the actions helped perpetuate the cycle of violence. But historical and local norms can be used to understand why people did what they did and even if I don't accept it, I can try to understand it ... up to a point. It's important to note even in terrorism there are degrees. Al-Qaeda in Iraq which was to be reborn as ISIS was even disowned by Al-Qaeda because of how extremist they became. Hamas has never hid its genocidal nature, it's enshrined in its constitution. So it isn't just their most recent actions.

 

[Cmaier]

If the deterrent effect is deliberate disproportionate "collateral damage" to civilians to "deter" future aggression then that is a very similar attitude to a terrorist. And Israel has done plenty it didn't have to do to survive - including by the way actual full on terrorism in Palestine and the proto-Israeli state. For an example, look up Irgun and their actions.

1) they aren’;t deliberately attacking civilians, but you can be damned certain that if a terrorist is going to hide a weapons cache in the middle of a mosque that Israel isn’t going to avoid blowing it up just because civilians may be killed.

2) Irgun? You’re going to use as an example a terrorist organization from the 1930’s until 1948, and then say that “Israel” (founded in 1948) committed “full on terrorism in Palestine?”

Ok.

All this liberal anger that Israel has had the temerity to not be destroyed and not to vanish as the only safe haven in the world for Jews.

 

[dada_dave]

1) they aren’;t deliberately attacking civilians, but you can be damned certain that if a terrorist is going to hide a weapons cache in the middle of a mosque that Israel isn’t going to avoid blowing it up just because civilians may be killed.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated area in the world. They are completely sealed in with no where to go and Israel just cut off all food, medical, energy, and water. The IDF are leveling entire neighborhoods and the ground campaign has barely even started. So spare me that they are trying to even remotely avoid civilian deaths. They are flattening Gaza completely and those are from the images the Israeli's are putting out themselves. 2.1 million people, 40% children. Nowhere to go. I have previously said that a ground campaign will be necessary to dislodge Hamas, that does not mean "disproportionate response" is justified. It's literally called "disproportionate".

2) Irgun? You’re going to use as an example a terrorist organization from the 1930’s until 1948, and then say that “Israel” (founded in 1948) committed “full on terrorism in Palestine?”

I said the proto-Israeli state and yes it played a significant role in the creation of Israel and the members went on to serve in Israel's government and commit further such crimes, which I outlined. The reason the organization stopped existing in 1948 is because it was folded into Israel's regular armed forces and into Israel's government. If you'd like more recent examples, I have more if you'd like me to continue? "Settlers" in the West Bank have killed multiple Palestinians this year alone, including children, destroyed their homes to make way for new illegal settlements. Hell they killed multiple Palestinians just yesterday and today are attacking the funerals of those killed yesterday. Up to date enough? Meanwhile the Israeli army was deployed to protect the "settlers" and not protect the towns and kibbutz around Gaza. So this ethnic cleansing and terrorism was being done under the aegis of the Israeli state which then failed to protect its own citizens from Hamas.

Ok.

All this liberal anger that Israel has had the temerity to not be destroyed and not to vanish as the only safe haven in the world for Jews.

Yeah that's not what I'm saying. At all. And you know it. Don't strawman.

 

[Roller]

So it’s Jews > Palestinians… it was Palestinians who lost most of their land and who have been oppressed ever since by Israel, because the US, Brits, and UN decided that was ok. The Jews had no more of an historic claim over the Arabs who live there, so yes, their state was plopped down on top of the Palestinians.

Don’t confuse this for support of Hamas’s most recent actions.

Is it your contention that there is no justification for the existence of a Jewish state in the region? If you or anyone else here agrees with that, there's no point in further discussion: You're essentially saying Israel should be eliminated as a country and be subsumed in a Palestinian state, the so-called one-state solution.

But if one accepts that Jews should have a homeland, the question is how to divide what was once called Palestine, even though it never existed as a nation. Had the partition plan proposed in U.N. resolution 181 or similar subsequent proposals been accepted, there would be two states. Negotiations would have solved the practical issues of free passage between them, but Israel would have had no dominion over the Arab/Palestinian states, as it does now over places like the West Bank. Even Mahmoud Abbas has said that it was wrong for the Arabs to have rejected the plan.

I in no way support the way Palestinians have been treated by Israel, whether it's in times of peace or times of war. I also decry Israel's decision to cut off all supplies to Gaza. But what is Israel to do about organizations who want to violently end its existence, especially in the Gaza strip, where terrorists are co-mingled with Palestinians who only want a peaceful existence?

 

[dada_dave]

Is it your contention that there is no justification for the existence of a Jewish state in the region? If you or anyone else here agrees with that, there's no point in further discussion: You're essentially saying Israel should be eliminated as a country and be subsumed in a Palestinian state, the so-called one-state solution.

I would quibble that the one-state solution wouldn't be a Palestinian state. But it won't happen regardless. Neither side wants that as far as I can tell. So I suppose there isn't much to point to quibbling over what it might look like.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I think as long as people fail to separate Palestinians from Hamas we're not going to get anywhere here. Nothing justifies the actions of Hamas and IMO defending their actions is sympathizing with terrorists.

There's conversation to be had about a two-state solution and the unjust actions against Palestine and their land, but indiscriminate murder is not the way to handle it and it only turns the world against them and their plight. This is right up there with 9/11, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the Holocaust.

As a baby step in the right direction a lot of the coverage I’ve seen puts it as Hamas vs. the Netanyahu administration. There’s even coverage of people on both sides disgusted with their leadership. It’s time we start calling these conflicts what they are, racist/nationalist (is there really a difference?) psychopath leadership vs racist/nationalist psychopath leadership. From there it’s just a matter of how many people they can indoctrinate into their dystopian worldview and inspire or order them to take violent action.

But in distinct difference fairness, on the Hamas side of things they are most likely threatening their soldiers or potential soldiers with violence against them and their family if they don't take up arms.

A disturbing part of human existence is how few people it takes to move thousands or millions of people to violence who normally would like to just live in peace.