Hamas has launched a major attack on Israel

[dada_dave]

As a baby step in the right direction a lot of the coverage I’ve seen puts it as Hamas vs. the Netanyahu administration. There’s even coverage of people on both sides disgusted with their leadership. It’s time we start calling these conflicts what they are, racist/nationalist (is there really a difference?) psychopath leadership vs racist/nationalist psychopath leadership. From there it’s just a matter of how many people they can indoctrinate into their dystopian worldview and inspire or order them to take violent action.

But in distinct difference fairness, on the Hamas side of things they are most likely threatening their soldiers or potential soldiers with violence against them and their family if they don't take up arms.

A disturbing part of human existence is how few people it takes to move thousands or millions of people to violence who normally would like to just live in peace.

Right now there is a unity government in Israel ... how long that last's is unclear. Hopefully the new entrants can temper the Israeli response.

 

[Eric]

As a baby step in the right direction a lot of the coverage I’ve seen puts it as Hamas vs. the Netanyahu administration. There’s even coverage of people on both sides disgusted with their leadership. It’s time we start calling these conflicts what they are, racist/nationalist (is there really a difference?) psychopath leadership vs racist/nationalist psychopath leadership. From there it’s just a matter of how many people they can indoctrinate into their dystopian worldview and inspire or order them to take violent action.

But in distinct difference fairness, on the Hamas side of things they are most likely threatening their soldiers or potential soldiers with violence against them and their family if they don't take up arms.

A disturbing part of human existence is how few people it takes to move thousands or millions of people to violence who normally would like to just live in peace.

I think this "both sides are guilty" talk is an attempt to muddy the waters. Hamas targeted and blasted civilians, slaughtered babies, raped women and perpetrated the most horrific inhumane acts imaginable. It's a disproportionate response to say the least.

While Israel is hitting targets where there may be civilian casualties, they're only targeting known terrorist strongholds. They've openly admitted to this and under the circumstances they don't have a lot of choices as they're still trying to defend themselves from more Hamas strikes.

 

[Roller]

I would quibble that the one-state solution wouldn't be a Palestinian state. But it won't happen regardless. Neither side wants that as far as I can tell. So I suppose there isn't much to point to quibbling over what it might look like.

Oh, it won't happen for sure. Neither side would accept it.

 

[dada_dave]

I think this "both sides are guilty" talk is an attempt to muddy the waters. Hamas targeted and blasted civilians, slaughtered babies, raped women and perpetrated the most horrific inhumane acts imaginable. It's a disproportionate response to say the least.

We should be able to face uncomfortable truths about the side we support without muddying the waters.

While Israel is hitting targets where there may be civilian casualties, they're only targeting known terrorist strongholds. They've openly admitted to this and under the circumstances they don't have a lot of choices as they're still trying to defend themselves from more Hamas strikes.

Since we're comparing to ISIS which given Hamas' actions is appropriate. Weirdly I'm anti-war crime regardless of which side does it. I hope we all are.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I think this "both sides are guilty" talk is an attempt to muddy the waters. Hamas targeted and blasted civilians, slaughtered babies, raped women and perpetrated the most horrific inhumane acts imaginable. It's a disproportionate response to say the least.

While Israel is hitting targets where there may be civilian casualties, they're only targeting known terrorist strongholds. They've openly admitted to this and under the circumstances they don't have a lot of choices as they're still trying to defend themselves from more Hamas strikes.

While I can see your interpretation of both-sidesism, that wasn’t my intention. And I was talking in terms of historical conflicts throughout the world, not the atrocity of the week. On this region nobody can decide where to start. This week? 5 months ago? 2 years? 50? 200? 2,000?

After 2,000 years of this shit I say just move everybody a safe distance away and nuke it to the point of being uninhabitable for the next thousand years. Since there’s never going to be a winner then just make everybody a loser and move forward.

 

[dada_dave]

While I can see your interpretation of both-sidesism, that wasn’t my intention. And I was talking in terms of historical conflicts throughout the world, not the atrocity of the week. On this region nobody can decide where to start. This week? 5 months ago? 2 years? 50? 200? 2,000?

After 2,000 years of this shit I say just move everybody a safe distance away and nuke it to the point of being uninhabitable for the next thousand years. Since there’s never going to be a winner then just make everybody a loser and move forward.

Yeah ... I know (hope) you're being facetious, but just in case, because this is the internet, I want to make it clear that would be very very bad.

 

[Eric]

Since we're comparing to ISIS which given Hamas' actions is appropriate. Weirdly I'm anti-war crime regardless of which side does it. I hope we all are.

Yet you're really only pointing fingers at Israel, obviously standing with Hamas. Fine if that's your position, just not sure why you try to mask it.

 

[dada_dave]

Yet you're really only pointing fingers at Israel, obviously standing with Hamas. Fine if that's your position, just not sure why you try to mask it.

WTF? I am not. I spent the first part of this thread pushing back at those claiming this was all Israel's fault or that Israel's past actions in any way justify what Hamas did. I was the one reporting on and pointing fingers at Hamas for their heinous atrocities in this thread. I've been accused by others of being a warmonger (not here) because I recognize that Israel has the right and even necessity of conducting a ground offensive to clear Hamas from Gaza. I've stated repeatedly that Hamas doesn't care about the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and doesn't care how many die.

Just because I also don't want Israel to commit war crimes in response doesn't make me fucking pro-Hamas. My God.

I guess you're just pro-war crime? Is that the false choice we're being offered here?

 

[Eric]

WTF? I am not. I spent the first part of this thread pushing back at those claiming this was all Israel's fault or that Israel's past actions in any way justify what Hamas did. I was the one reporting on and pointing fingers at Hamas for their heinous atrocities in this thread. I've been accused by others of being a warmonger (not here) because I recognize that Israel has the right and even necessity of conducting a ground offensive to clear Hamas from Gaza. I've stated repeatedly that Hamas doesn't care about the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and doesn't care how many die.

Just because I also don't want Israel to commit war crimes in response doesn't make me fucking pro-Hamas. My God.

I guess you're just pro-war crime? Is that the false choice we're being offered here?

Okay fair enough, let's call it my interpretation of what I'm seeing from your posts. The railing against what's perceived as disproportionate attacks, both sides being equally responsible, etc. The two are not the same and it's almost insulting when they're portrayed as such.

The reality is that Israel has always retaliated hard in the past when this happens. They openly admit there will be collateral damage and accept it as part of their response but they are only targeting areas of where they believe the terrorist are, not just random civilian populations. At least they didn't bomb a country that had nothing to do with their attacks ala Bush and 9/11 but that's a different story.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Yeah ... I know (hope) you're being facetious, but just in case, because this is the internet, I want to make it clear that would be very very bad.

I’m being hyperbolic, but nobody has any clue how to solve this and I’d argue it will never be solved anytime a people thinks they have a mandate from God to completely control a territory. That may not be what everyone there believes and may not even be the majority but that’s what the leadership is going to use for every justification.

 

[dada_dave]

Okay fair enough, let's call it my interpretation of what I'm seeing from your posts. The railing against what's perceived as disproportionate attacks, both sides being equally responsible, etc. The two are not the same and it's almost insulting when they're portrayed as such.

The reality is that Israel has always retaliated hard in the past when this happens. They openly admit there will be collateral damage and accept it as part of their response but they are only targeting areas of where they believe the terrorist are, not just random civilian populations. At least they didn't bomb a country that had nothing to do with their attacks ala Bush and 9/11 but that's a different story.

Okay maybe you missed my posts

Similarly to your argument that parallels to an Ukraine don’t strengthen his argument, I think claiming parallels to MLK is far more invalid: riots as the language of the unheard? sure. Rape, torture, and murder of civilians including children? Then parading the naked, stripped dead bodies through the streets? Surrounding a peace festival literally devoted to calling for peace and reconciliation and murdering them? And these are just the things Hamas have themselves uploaded onto the internet for their supporters to jeer at. They’re proud of it. Nah I can condemn that pretty unequivocally without invoking MLK’s “language of the unheard”.

(edit: I just want to add that I understand that you don’t support what Hamas is doing, but I strongly feel that even invoking the parallel of MLK’s words on unrest is not appropriate here either.)

Just to be clear: I agree that Israel and especially its nearly continuous succession of far right governments the last (edit: almost) 30 years (since Rabin’s assassination) deserve condemnation for ethnic cleansing, apartheid, “collateral damage”, and just outright murder - including of a journalist by security forces earlier this year.

I would argue that eventually a difference in scale is a difference in kind. This one such instance.



A lot went wrong in 1948, but it would equally disingenuous to suggest it was all the Israeli/West/UN. The Arabs and Palestinians played a massive role in how things unfolded and not for the positive. They ensure that it was borne through violence and then displacement because they thought they would be the ones doing the violence and displacement (there were already many longstanding Jewish communities which formed the backbone of the new Israeli state that in 1948 the Arabs decided to attack and try to eliminate). It didn’t have to be that way. This is not to suggest that the Israelis and West and UN likewise don’t share any blame. Indeed one only need to look at the political antecedents of Likud were in those days to see that - violent *jewish* terrorists. But I want to push back against the notion that they were the only ones to blame.


I would say 30 years ago there was still hope, but that died with Rabin and even more so the election of Netanyahu. Sometimes, I know rarely, horror like this kind also push the other way. We can only hope.

Yes I criticize Israel. No I do not stand with Hamas. No I do not want Israel to cease to exist. Israel had for a number of years some of the most remarkable leadership of the 20th century. David Ben Gurion in particular was an amazing man. That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, but he tried damn hard to make a better world and so much is owed. The pain I feel with Israel and the United States is not that I don't love us, but how much it hurts when we fail to be the countries we aspire to be. And how disastrous the consequences can be when we fail. But at least we fucking have those aspirations. There a lot of countries and groups that don't but are happy to use our failures to justify their own horrors.

Look I'm getting really upset. I even got a heart rate warning from my Apple Watch. I think I maybe need to step back a bit.

 

[Eric]

Okay maybe you missed my posts





Yes I criticize Israel. No I do not stand with Hamas. No I do not want Israel to cease to exist. Israel had for a number of years some of the most remarkable leadership of the 20th century. David Ben Gurion in particular was an amazing man. That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, but he tried damn hard to make a better world and so much is owed. The pain I feel with Israel and the United States is not that I don't love us, but how much it hurts when we fail to be the countries we aspire to be. And how disastrous the consequences can be when we fail. But at least we fucking have those aspirations. There a lot of countries and groups that don't but are happy to use our failures to justify their own horrors.

Look I'm getting really upset. I even got a heart rate warning from my Apple Watch. I think I maybe need to step back a bit.

Understood, I could've chosen better wording than accusing you of siding with Hamas so I apologize about that. At the same time we see a lot of people defending them and it's sickening, Israel's bombing of targets (with acceptable collateral damage) is just the beginning, they'll have to go house to house and deal with them and it will be an exhausting campaign, most experts say it's the only way.

I would just ask how anyone expects Israel to respond differently under the circumstances. I'm glad to see that American fully has their backs here.

 

[Herdfan]

I would just ask how anyone expects Israel to respond differently under the circumstances. I'm glad to see that American fully has their backs here.

They can't, nor should they.

I know this may sound harsh, but from the standpoint of Israel, they need to eliminate Hamas and that is probably going to include killing of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Or they can do nothing and wait until Hamas kills more Israeli civilians. Either way, innocent people are going to die, Israel just wants to ensure it is not their citizens.

 

[rdrr]

They can't, nor should they.

I know this may sound harsh, but from the standpoint of Israel, they need to eliminate Hamas and that is probably going to include killing of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Or they can do nothing and wait until Hamas kills more Israeli civilians. Either way, innocent people are going to die, Israel just wants to ensure it is not their citizens.

Disclaimer; I really haven't sorted out my personal feelings yet about this conflict, other than this. I am not supporting Hamas, and I find Israels actions in the past/present against Palestine detestable. Both can be true. However, I am against killing of children, regardless if it is a justified military action and innocent children get caught up in it, or if it's a surprise coordinated terrorist attack. Dead children/babies being killed by a bombing or beheading is the same result. It should be a crime without question or excuse.

Now back to your statement. What you are saying is that Israel lives are worth more than innocent Palestine folks because Hamas is imbedded in their mist. I find that sickening and I hope we don't blindly support that, because then the blood will be on our hands. No one is innocent but the victims in this war.

 

[dada_dave]

Understood, I could've chosen better wording than accusing you of siding with Hamas so I apologize about that. At the same time we see a lot of people defending them and it's sickening, Israel's bombing of targets (with acceptable collateral damage) is just the beginning, they'll have to go house to house and deal with them and it will be an exhausting campaign, most experts say it's the only way.

I would just ask how anyone expects Israel to respond differently under the circumstances. I'm glad to see that American fully has their backs here.

I'm calming down a bit. I agree I wrote earlier that a ground campaign is the only way, it would be inhumane to not expect them to conduct one, and that even if Israel did do everything in their power to curb civilian deaths, it will be terrible. I agree that the defenses I've seen of Hamas are sickening. The DSA was already on my shit list for their stance on Ukraine, but now? Fuck those assholes. And they are far from the only ones. That was just who popped into my head first.

I do also reject that a ground operation or even an air operation absolutely must take the form that Israel is pursuing. I feel strongly that we have to push back against that as well or we'll just be jingoistically walking into the same trap we as a species have always done. And btw I read plenty of ex-military and conflict reporters, including Israelis, who want Netanyahu and his ilk gone before thy fuck this up even worse and that the military operation as structured isn't designed to only target Hamas, but everyone and they're doing this to cover up their own incompetency for allowing a successful attack of this magnitude. Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but I am seeing a lot of enraged Israelis at Netanyahu. Ministers are being thrown out of hospitals by angry families who have lost loved ones. Of course they are also enraged at Hamas and huge numbers of Israelis abroad are coming home to Israel to fight for their country. To call what Hamas did as Israel's 9/11 is even an understatement. Even just the body count alone, never mind the horror inflicted ... the equivalent for a country our size would have been if tens of thousands had been murdered that day. But what Likud has planned isn't just about security, but revenge and revenge because they fucked up so fucking badly. Look maybe none of things I want to happen would make a lick of difference, full disclosure there was even a thread from an expert that explained in their opinion the solutions proffered by the other experts wouldn't actually help much (I can't find it now), but it would at least be something to try. Just as we can't both-sides this, Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated, we can't make it an either-or. At some point, we're going to have to be better as a species or we won't survive.

 

[dada_dave]

Disclaimer; I really haven't sorted out my personal feelings yet about this conflict, other than this. I am not supporting Hamas, and I find Israels actions in the past/present against Palestine detestable. Both can be true. However, I am against killing of children, regardless if it is a justified military action and innocent children get caught up in it, or if it's a surprise coordinated terrorist attack. Dead children/babies being killed by a bombing or beheading is the same result. It should be a crime without question or excuse.

While a body may never ask how it got so cold, it isn't the same. Look, I have no moral calculation to equate how many dead babies killed by bombing equal how many babies killed by beheading. Even if Israel were to pursue every law of war, they would still kill huge numbers of people. But there really isn't a choice here. Whatever chance there was to resolve this peacefully came and left a long time ago.

Now back to your statement. What you are saying is that Israel lives are worth more than innocent Palestine folks because Hamas is imbedded in their mist. I find that sickening and I hope we don't blindly support that, because then the blood will be on our hands. No one is innocent but the victims in this war.

Agreed I want to push back against blindly accepting that Israel is or will follow those rules and prevent needless deaths.

Oh great my heart rate is back up. Okay I need to log off for real. I'm too emotional about this. Look everyone, please understand whatever your thoughts, please understand it isn't that I don't care. I care very very deeply.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Understood, I could've chosen better wording than accusing you of siding with Hamas so I apologize about that. At the same time we see a lot of people defending them and it's sickening, Israel's bombing of targets (with acceptable collateral damage) is just the beginning, they'll have to go house to house and deal with them and it will be an exhausting campaign, most experts say it's the only way.

I would just ask how anyone expects Israel to respond differently under the circumstances. I'm glad to see that American fully has their backs here.

The sources I follow aren’t left enough because none of them are defending Hamas. I’m not saying that, that isn’t happening, but the only time I’ve heard of it is some other source mentioning it happening. It's like right-wing media's obsession with finding isolated incidents and advertising them as epidemic levels.

Probably the most public example of this currently is the Harvard student group penning a letter “blaming Israel” in headlines but that’s not what the letter said. It blamed “the Israeli regime”. What’s the difference? There’s a difference between “death to America!” and “We hold the American government responsible”. There’s many Americans on both sides that hold the American government responsible for all kinds of things they don’t agree with but that’s not a condemnation of every American.

Like I meant in my post you felt was trying to both sides things, the sooner we start focusing on the maniacs at the top instead of condemning an entire people they rule over and manipulate the better.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

They can't, nor should they.

I know this may sound harsh, but from the standpoint of Israel, they need to eliminate Hamas and that is probably going to include killing of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Or they can do nothing and wait until Hamas kills more Israeli civilians. Either way, innocent people are going to die, Israel just wants to ensure it is not their citizens.

Just adding here.

How do you take out a group that is perfectly willing to use human shields on large scale and small? That doesn't fear and even welcomes death? That even if you go out of your way to not kill civilians they won’t when cornered? You think they are just going to throw their arms up and go “you got me!” and surrender or take out everyone in sight before they get their bullet? When dealing with this mentality and number of combatants I think our belief in precision operations is far removed from reality. Add that they aren’t running around with Hamas swag on. Add innocent civilian turned instant combatant by witnessing their loved ones get killed. I don’t think there is a war where civilian casualties didn’t way outnumber soldiers killed.

 

[Roller]

A new poll of Jewish Israelis shows that an overwhelming majority blame the government for the Hamas attacks. A small majority (56%) think Netanyahu should resign after the war is over, though it's unstated what "being over" means.

The Israeli government says they want to obliterate Hamas, but that's practically impossible without completely destroying Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel continues to bomb, with increasing loss of life of innocent Palestinians and others. In prior wars, Israel would have started a ground attack by now, but this time they're constrained by Hamas's capture of hostages, some from other countries, including the U.S. and France.

If another Arab country could convince Hamas to stop firing rockets, there might a chance for a cease-fire, entry of humanitarian aid, and even freedom for some non-Israeli hostages. but I don't expect that to happen. This is a no-win situation all around with the exception of Hamas, which has succeeded in terrorizing Israelis, who may never again feel safe.

 

[dada_dave]

The sources I follow aren’t left enough because none of them are defending Hamas. I’m not saying that, that isn’t happening, but the only time I’ve heard of it is some other source mentioning it happening. It's like right-wing media's obsession with finding isolated incidents and advertising them as epidemic levels.

Probably the most public example of this currently is the Harvard student group penning a letter “blaming Israel” in headlines but that’s not what the letter said. It blamed “the Israeli regime”. What’s the difference? There’s a difference between “death to America!” and “We hold the American government responsible”. There’s many Americans on both sides that hold the American government responsible for all kinds of things they don’t agree with but that’s not a condemnation of every American.

Like I meant in my post you felt was trying to both sides things, the sooner we start focusing on the maniacs at the top instead of condemning an entire people they rule over and manipulate the better.

And I saw this before I logged off. The ADL has a list that is not exhaustive. Frankly they're being kind by calling some of these groups "fringe" (some are). In the realm of shocking but not surprising, the fucking DSA has been pretty fucking bad. One prominent Congressman resigned from the DSA as a result of the DSA-NY's statement talking about how the terror attack was all about liberation of Palestine. Fucking ghouls. I think DSA-SF had a particular horrifying take. Code Pink as well, but no one expects anything better from them anyway. One individual BLM chapters also justified it (not the organization as a whole as far as I can tell ), and even for those who didn't outright justify it there are a hell of lot of organization with weird anodyne statements with refusals to call what Hamas did terrorism. Just vague, we're sorry this is happening which is insulting to both Palestinians and Israelis. If you take the time to put out a statement, put out one that recognizes each group individually. They're people for fucks sake. There have also been rallies saying "gas the jews" in Sydney of all places I think it was, attacks on Jewish establishments pretty much everywhere, another rally in NYC mocking the dead concert goers ... it's a pretty bad list. Also there are a lot of students past and present who are pissed at that letter. Deservedly so as it was not signed by most of them, the organization leadership signed without consent of the students and some former students are getting harassed because they used to be members of those organizations even if they haven't been for years or currently are and reject the letter. Which brings me to: To be clear I have seen a couple of pretty terrible things the other direction beyond the harassment of students. That rally in NYC seems to have met a counter rally calling for the extermination of Gaza and I've seen a lot of Palestinian hate online and pro-peace Palestinian voices being harassed. There have been a few Republican lawmakers getting awfully close to using that language of extermination, e.g. Lindsey Graham calling it a religious war and to "level the place". Okay I got to get off for real my heart rate is through the roof.

Edit: sorry logged back on because I realized I deleted the link to the ADL website.