Jan 6 Committee Public Hearings

It was quite a good proof-of-concept for a COMPETENT authoritarian to take over the country. Trump is an idiot, and his most loyal advisors were buffoons. But some things they tried actually could work if you have enough dishonest actors within the system.

So, it definitely can happen here, and if a tyrant wants to do it, they’ve got a roadmap.

Yeah and I'm sure the wannabe strongarm rulers of the world are all going to watch what happens in October with the Brazilian elections, where the allegiance of the police, and military to a constitution is not as firmly anchored as in older democracies, even though the military leadership has so far largely resisted Bonsonaro's ongoing attempts to compromise its independence.

Bolsonaro has already tried to cast doubt on results of the elections in advance by taking a page from Trump's playbook, suggesting without evidence that current voting methods lack integrity and that he will not accept "fraudulent" results.

Not only that, Bolsonaro has long had help from Trump's inner circle in aid of casting doubt on election integrity. The cited piece (paywall stripped) is from November of 2021:

Steve Bannon, Mr. Trump’s former chief strategist, has said President Bolsonaro will only lose if “the machines” steal the election. Representative Mark Green, a Tennessee Republican who has pushed laws combating voter fraud, met with lawmakers in Brazil to discuss “voting integrity policies.”

And President Bolsonaro’s son, Eduardo Bolsonaro, gave perhaps his most elaborate presentation on what he said were manipulated Brazilian elections in Sioux Falls, S.D. He was at an August event hosted by Mike Lindell, the pillow executive being sued for defaming voting machine makers
 
What makes you think storming the capitol today would be successful?

Because we’ve seen now that the Republicans will just call it “legitimate political discourse.” Almost no republican in office will admit, now, that there was no election fraud. They all see that their base would tear them to shreds if they did NOT send it to the state legislatures.
 
Because we’ve seen now that the Republicans will just call it “legitimate political discourse.” Almost no republican in office will admit, now, that there was no election fraud. They all see that their base would tear them to shreds if they did NOT send it to the state legislatures.

I don’t see it happening again for a number of reasons. First, there would be A LOT more security. From experience security would know these aren’t just slightly rowdy protesters and they are perfectly able to injure or kill and certainly don’t side with the police on this one. Second, from a protester’s standpoint they will see that there were circumstances for individuals. There won’t be any “I just got swept up in the moment” defense preconceptions. Only the super nutters would enter without fear of consequences. Third, another attempt would have to be a lot more organized and violent to the point that nobody in office could just say “it was a field trip with a couple of knuckleheads.”
 
So while republicans are worried about Biden's mental state, they're perfectly ok with Bill Barr knowing the president was either "out of his mind" or telling a harmful lie (Barr also said he thought these lies were damaging to the country). This was all under oath, and the conservative Trumpists are all just fine with it. Actually, they're not fine with it - they're mad at Bill Barr for being a "RINO".

Barr knew the sitting president was believing lies so ridiculous he was out of his mind, or that he was making up those lies and foisting them onto his supporters to fundraise. And Barr also knew the vermin hanging around Trump. Sounds like a national security concern to me. The president is nuts or lying (or both) and not listening to his advisers. And this is a guy who's resume has selling Sharper Image steaks and hosted a TV show on it - not what I'd call stellar qualifications out of the gate.

Yet Barr did nothing. He wrote Trump a resignation letter than may as well been an admission of his lust for Trump, because it sure as hell didn't sound like a letter written for the man Barr described under oath.

And yet, as despicable as his tenure was - where he essentially just used the justice department as a PR firm for Trump - he's probably one of the few in the party who at least somewhat did the right thing. I mean, he was a terrible AG, but I guess next to the people surrounding him he's one of the least worst.

But they all played a part in how we got to January 6, they've testified as such, and their plan going forward is to do nothing. The republicans and their media outlets are trying to combat everything, and I have no doubt when/if republicans gain power, they will really do some horrible things to try to rewrite the history books.
 
I don’t see it happening again for a number of reasons. First, there would be A LOT more security. From experience security would know these aren’t just slightly rowdy protesters and they are perfectly able to injure or kill and certainly don’t side with the police on this one. Second, from a protester’s standpoint they will see that there were circumstances for individuals. There won’t be any “I just got swept up in the moment” defense preconceptions. Only the super nutters would enter without fear of consequences. Third, another attempt would have to be a lot more organized and violent to the point that nobody in office could just say “it was a field trip with a couple of knuckleheads.”

I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work. It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.

Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party. If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?
 
I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work. It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.

Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party. If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?

I'm also concerned about attrition of nonpartisan / bipartisan workers in polling places and vote-counting centers, however those centers are defined by the various states' laws. There have been so many stories in the news about threats to such workers and their families. What ordinary citizen who shares responsibility for an accurate vote count needs death threats and doxxing as part of the occupational hazard, just because some people may dislike how a vote went, whether the slot is for US Prez or dogcatcher?

The people taking their places may end up being those who are not only partisan but spoiling for a fight. It's not like everyone on the left will shrug off efforts by right wing partisans to corrupt vote-tallying. Further, the extremists on either side may not care that the effect of their behavior ACTUALLY puts integrity of elections in doubt. After all, that's the whole point, at least for far too many on the right these days, particularly if they have been falsely convinced by the Trump playbook election gospel that there's no "clean" way to win an election any more.

We need leaders in both major parties to speak up for the historical and current integrity of our voting processes, but we're not hearing enough of that from Republicans. As for the undermining influence of some of the characters on the Fox News Channel, well... too bad there's probably not a special place in hell for them.
 
I think you’re missing my point, which is if they tried it again, it would work. It doesn’t matter whether they get in and steal pelosi’s envelope again. The pressure from the massive crowd would be more than enough to remind pence and the republican congresspeople which way the base is pointed.

Hell, next time there doesn’t even have to be a crowd. Look at who is being nominated for governor and Secretary of State across the country by the Republican Party. If Pennsylvania or Arizona votes for a democrat but the governor and Secretary of State certify trump’s electors, who can stop them?


I agree with the second part. I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.
 
I agree with the second part. I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.

I never said anything about it being treated leniently. I only commented on whether if it happened now it would work.
 
I agree with the second part. I don't agree that a mob of thousands storming the capital will be treated more leniently or given more sway the next time around.

I don't think we can say that. We don't know enough about how police and the military rank and file are attached to the rule of law (as opposed to a given candidate's idea of law and order). I'm mindful of the more than grain of truth in the assertion that a failed coup is practice for a successful one.

Practice may not make for perfect but coup-plotters aren't known for letting perfect be the enemy of maybe-good-enough.

Bolsonaro, for instance, has been working away at the potential need to retain power the hard way for quite awhile already. Nieman Lab just ran an interview with the award-winning Brazilian journo and elections researcher Patricia Campos Mello. The discussion was pretty eye-opening in terms of the Bolsonaro crew's willingness to threaten journalists asking about election transparency when Bolsonaro talks about how he won't put up with a rigged election. What's perhaps more alarming is that the social media platforms seem to remain lukewarm about the idea of adequately curbing election-period shenanigans that may attempt to provoke mass violence and so justify a military response that essentially underwrites a coup.


At this point, we [in Brazil] have a president that says every day that the elections are going to be rigged. He says he’s going to hire a private auditing company to audit the elections and that he’s going to have a parallel vote counting by the army. It’s like a slow-motion coup. When we ask the internet platforms, how are you preparing for this? What are you going to do if you have the president or one of his allies hosting a live video on Facebook saying, “You should go confront poll workers because they are stealing the election”? They don’t seem to have a plan.

Much like us in the USA, ordinary Brazilians now see that their usual approach to rule of law seems to be having trouble dealing with willingness of political groups --those who are fearful of defeat at the polls and also willing to retain power at any cost-- to set about peddling disnformation provocative enough to invite chaos (and then a military crackdown) during an election period.

It's sort of like we've shrugged off for way too long the idea that "all pols tell lies" and we've never stopped to weigh what that means, to debunk the corrolary that "so it doesn't matter if what they say is true or not". We don't have any effective way right now to insist that this or that lie is a bridge way too far. We might say that --for instance about Trump's false assertion that the 2020 election was stolen-- but the pols spreading such lies just shrug and double down on the BS, and their followers remain persuaded.

The whole point of the effort of those pols is to make facts (and votes) irrelevant. It's the traditional path to a strongman's government, and it depends on effectively cowing journalists and devaluing their work.

As far as lessons learned from the January 6th insurrection, surely they remain to be seen. Yes, some of the Americans now doing time on criminal charges might be quite bitter that Trump betrayed them in the end, i.e. he said he'd be with them as they marched upon the Capitol, but of course he was not, and he's not in the slam, and not likely to go there either.

But plenty of those who went there and have not been charged still think of the 1/6/21 event as a beginning, not an end to such antics. And why not? One of the two major parties in the USA still has leaders and candidates and elected officials who are signed up to that idea. And that party's honchos, the leaders of the Republican National Committee, formally censured the two Republicans who agreed to serve on the House's January 6th Committee. One is not standing for re-election and the other was driven from her leadership post in the House for her stance on the insurrection.


What are we to make of that? What are Trump's followers to make of that? That the GOP approved of an attempt to overturn a sitting US government, and disapproves of congressional hearings to unravel the impetus, leadership and execution of that plan which resulted in a violent breach of the Capitol. Why shouldn't interested individuals figure that's a green light to get it right the next time around?
 
I never said anything about it being treated leniently. I only commented on whether if it happened now it would work.


I don't know what you mean by work. It sounds like you are saying that if a mob stormed the capital again in defense of keeping a president in office or putting a new one in then the government would cave to their demands.
 
I don't know what you mean by work. It sounds like you are saying that if a mob stormed the capital again in defense of keeping a president in office or putting a new one in then the government would cave to their demands.

I’m saying that if a crowd shows up demanding a Republican president be elected, then republican congresspeople will arrange for that to happen.
 
I’m saying that if a crowd shows up demanding a Republican president be elected, then republican congresspeople will arrange for that to happen.

And I'm saying they are already taking care of that likelihood behind the scenes before the election. A violent mob wouldn't help that scenario, only breed more resentment and legal action from those who aren't on board.

Even Hitler learned that lesson pretty quickly. Sure there were violent elements in his ascendency but it's not part of what ultimately gave him power. If anything there were false flag violent operations blamed on his opposition. It wasn't violent mobs in support of him.

But in the US now, much like that time period in German history, the pre-Nazi government pretty much wasn't doing a damn thing to improve people's situation or give them much of a reason to defend the status quo. Once you step back from the romanticism of democracy and also realize that isn't exactly what we have other than the thin veneer of putting people in office who will ultimately be ineffectual beyond serving the rich, it really is a hard sell to rally behind our fucked up broken system. The establishment has zero interest in doing what needs to be done to fix our system and create a more equitable and healthy society.
 
And I'm saying they are already taking care of that likelihood behind the scenes before the election. A violent mob wouldn't help that scenario, only breed more resentment and legal action from those who aren't on board.

Even Hitler learned that lesson pretty quickly. Sure there were violent elements in his ascendency but it's not part of what ultimately gave him power. If anything there were false flag violent operations blamed on his opposition. It wasn't violent mobs in support of him.

But in the US now, much like that time period in German history, the pre-Nazi government pretty much wasn't doing a damn thing to improve people's situation or give them much of a reason to defend the status quo. Once you step back from the romanticism of democracy and also realize that isn't exactly what we have other than the thin veneer of putting people in office who will ultimately be ineffectual beyond serving the rich, it really is a hard sell to rally behind our fucked up broken system. The establishment has zero interest in doing what needs to be done to fix our system and create a more equitable and healthy society.
In the news it was mentioned this morning that election denier forces had already placed State Republican Secretaries of State into 2 key swing states for 2024 Ready to ensure a Republikan victory next time around. And when claims of election fraud are raised, they will say tough shit, you did it to us last time. :oops:
 
he packed the court with folks he assumed would go along. If they had, then the military, police, etc. would go along with who the Supreme Court said is president. If they intimidated congress into saying “hey, something fishy is going on these states. Legislatures of these states, please confirm who the electors are for us,” then they hoped that those legislatures would be intimidated into going along. 60% of the country might be appalled, disgusted, and outraged, but what are they going to do?

Next time they can skip some steps, because they are going to elect wacko secretaries of state who will make sure the only slate is a slate that was not elected.
Yep, this country is headed for a showdown, possibly a civil war, unless not enough care what we turn into, I already see the argument, they stole from us last time, it’s only fair we do it to them this time. :unsure:
 
In the news it was mentioned this morning that election denier forces had already placed State Republican Secretaries of State into 2 key swing states for 2024 Ready to ensure a Republikan victory next time around. And when claims of election fraud are raised, they will say tough shit, you did it to us last time. :oops:

I still don't get how that is supposed to work. The count comes back with their candidate losing and they go "no they didn't" and that's the end of it? That's legal? They could save everybody a lot of time if they just didn't let people vote and just handed it to their candidate which would be the same thing.
 
I still don't get how that is supposed to work. The count comes back with their candidate losing and they go "no they didn't" and that's the end of it? That's legal? They could save everybody a lot of time if they just didn't let people vote and just handed it to their candidate which would be the same thing.
First of all who controls that State’s government?

The last time Trump failed, it was because not enough government elements had been subverted. Some steps have been taken at the State level to correct this.

I’m no expert on this, but I know what Trump forces wanted last time, a declaration of fraud and if the State has made provisions for the State legislature to overrule the board of elections, it’s a done deal. This is primary. The (State) Sec of State refuses to certify an election based on a vague claim of election fraud, the State Government agrees and electors for the Forces of Evil are put forward to count in the National election results.
 
This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537088723296604161/


The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?

 
Yep, this country is headed for a showdown, possibly a civil war, unless not enough care what we turn into, I already see the argument, they stole from us last time, it’s only fair we do it to them this time. :unsure:

The Republicans’ blanket obstruction is a two-pronged approach. The first most obvious is to let people know they shouldn’t rely on the government to help them out with anything. The second is to show that Democrats aren’t capable of changing that. So why even show up to vote.

Democrats have always been more fractured than Republicans, but with a thin majority they’ve shown keeping that division is more important than coming together for the greater good. What good does my California representation do when there’s a Joe Manchin and there’s nothing in Democrat history to suggest there will never not be a Joe Manchin. But yeah, let’s rally to keep that bullshit steaming along!

There is hope though (assuming Republicans don’t completely dismantle democracy first), and this is where the Republicans exceled at the long game and Democrats have a lot to learn. Democrats tend to look to the top and if there isn’t a Democrat President or controlled Congress then all is fucked. Republicans have been working from the exact opposite angle. Start at the bottom and work your way up to where they are now. They’ve been grass rooting it for decades. This is why they are working on installing favorable secretaries of state while most Democrats probably didn’t even know what the secretary of state even does before Trump’s pressure on the 2020 election. Point being, quit looking entirely at the top for solutions and salvation. Look locally and move up from there.

I don’t know what to tell people who live in a red or purple state, but living in CA I don’t see us easily bending the knee to authoritarianism. There will be a fight backed by our state and local government.
 
This finally might get the focus it should have always gotten

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1537088723296604161/



The capital police says it wasn't suspicious, but the committee is still looking into it?
According to police, nothing suspicious 🙄
 
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