Musk offers to buy Twitter

[mr_roboto]

Here's a warning flag from 2018. Variations on this story kept popping up many times over the years, but never got sustained national press attention.

Menial Tasks, Slurs and Swastikas: Many Black Workers at Tesla Say They Faced Racism (Published 2018)

African-American workers have reported threats, humiliation and barriers to promotion at the plant. The automaker says there is no pattern of bias.

www.nytimes.com

Money quote which makes it clear why these problems persisted:

In an email to employees last year, which the company later released in response to one of the lawsuits, Elon Musk, Tesla’s chief executive, warned against “being a huge jerk” to members of “a historically less represented group.” At the same time, he wrote, “if someone is a jerk to you, but sincerely apologizes, it is important to be thick-skinned and accept that apology.”

In other words, in a Musk-run company, as soon as an insincere apology is presented, the victims are obliged to shut up and go back to work. How much do you want to bet nobody ever got fired from Tesla for drawing a racist caricature and placing it where Black coworkers were guaranteed to see it?

 

[AG_PhamD]

Here's a warning flag from 2018. Variations on this story kept popping up many times over the years, but never got sustained national press attention.

Menial Tasks, Slurs and Swastikas: Many Black Workers at Tesla Say They Faced Racism (Published 2018)

African-American workers have reported threats, humiliation and barriers to promotion at the plant. The automaker says there is no pattern of bias.

www.nytimes.com

Money quote which makes it clear why these problems persisted:


In other words, in a Musk-run company, as soon as an insincere apology is presented, the victims are obliged to shut up and go back to work. How much do you want to bet nobody ever got fired from Tesla for drawing a racist caricature and placing it where Black coworkers were guaranteed to see it?

I always am suspect of the claims of smearing people (ie Musk) as inherently racist explanation why situations like this are not addressed. I think the more likely case is that Musk/Tesla is just not concerned with HR-type issues. For Musk, it seems the product, productivity, profitability, sales, etc is the priority, no matter what the cost. I imagine issues like workplace conflicts distract from company goals. And having to fire people over issues like this only creates inefficiencies.

As a small business owner with 10-20 employees and subcontractors, I could never imagine treating them like this.

If you look at Tesla’s history of wage disputes, workplace safety, and OSHA violations (including covering up injuries), you see the exact same trends. Workers come last and the product is everything.

Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined

CEO Elon Musk once called California OSHA the 'most stringent' safety organization in the US.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla’s construction workers at Texas gigafactory allege labor violations

Whistleblowers claim constant hazards, onsite accidents and wage theft while working on the manufacturing facility in Austin

www.theguardian.com

Tesla’s on-site health clinic accused of undercounting worker injuries

The factory clinic’s director says employees were ‘gaming the system’ before he took over

www.theverge.com

And you may remember Musk refused to comply with the CA state lockdown policies, back in the early days of COVID. Again, no regard for employee safety.

Elon Musk Defies Lockdown Orders and Reopens Tesla's Factory

The CEO sued a California county over the weekend and threatened to move the company to Texas—his latest tangle with government authorities.

www.wired.com

It’s just shocking to me for years Musk was largely given a pass this kind of stuff. For the most part, the media fawned over him. Any negative press was attacked by his personality cult. I have been talking about this stuff for years. Now that his political rhetoric has changed, all of a sudden attention is being paid. It’s pretty obvious he took advantage of peoples (particuarly the left wing) desire for environmentalism to ingratiate himself. This is despite a long history of what could be considered anti-left wing behaviors.

It’s just kind of disgusting this is how the media and politics works. Ever since declaring right wing views and especially since taking over twitter, he has been relentlessly attacked. But where were these people for the past 10 years?

It’s just funny to me Musk is now being treated like some sort of hero by the right. I don’t think Musk really has any strong political allegiance, he just does what he thinks best suits his ambitions.

I will say what is actually quite interesting/unique about Musk is that I genuinely don’t think his ambitions have much to do with flaunting and amassing wealth- only to the extent it allows him to follow his passion of developing technology. He doesn’t seem particularly focused on making money for the sake of making money and living the stereotypical billionaire lifestyle. At the same time, he also doesn’t seem to be big into philanthropy either. I honestly think he is all about his products, but at the expense of everything else. And that shows.

 

[dada_dave]

I always am suspect of the claims of smearing people (ie Musk) as inherently racist explanation why situations like this are not addressed. I think the more likely case is that Musk/Tesla is just not concerned with HR-type issues. For Musk, it seems the product, productivity, profitability, sales, etc is the priority, no matter what the cost. I imagine issues like workplace conflicts distract from company goals. And having to fire people over issues like this only creates inefficiencies.

As a small business owner with 10-20 employees and subcontractors, I could never imagine treating them like this.

If you look at Tesla’s history of wage disputes, workplace safety, and OSHA violations (including covering up injuries), you see the exact same trends. Workers come last and the product is everything.

Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined

CEO Elon Musk once called California OSHA the 'most stringent' safety organization in the US.

www.thedrive.com

Tesla’s construction workers at Texas gigafactory allege labor violations

Whistleblowers claim constant hazards, onsite accidents and wage theft while working on the manufacturing facility in Austin

www.theguardian.com

Tesla’s on-site health clinic accused of undercounting worker injuries

The factory clinic’s director says employees were ‘gaming the system’ before he took over

www.theverge.com

And you may remember Musk refused to comply with the CA state lockdown policies, back in the early days of COVID. Again, no regard for employee safety.

Elon Musk Defies Lockdown Orders and Reopens Tesla's Factory

The CEO sued a California county over the weekend and threatened to move the company to Texas—his latest tangle with government authorities.

www.wired.com

It’s just shocking to me for years Musk was largely given a pass this kind of stuff. For the most part, the media fawned over him. Any negative press was attacked by his personality cult. I have been talking about this stuff for years. Now that his political rhetoric has changed, all of a sudden attention is being paid. It’s pretty obvious he took advantage of peoples (particuarly the left wing) desire for environmentalism to ingratiate himself. This is despite a long history of what could be considered anti-left wing behaviors.

It’s just kind of disgusting this is how the media and politics works. Ever since declaring right wing views and especially since taking over twitter, he has been relentlessly attacked. But where were these people for the past 10 years?

It’s just funny to me Musk is now being treated like some sort of hero by the right. I don’t think Musk really has any strong political allegiance, he just does what he thinks best suits his ambitions.

I will say what is actually quite interesting/unique about Musk is that I genuinely don’t think his ambitions have much to do with flaunting and amassing wealth- only to the extent it allows him to follow his passion of developing technology. He doesn’t seem particularly focused on making money for the sake of making money and living the stereotypical billionaire lifestyle. At the same time, he also doesn’t seem to be big into philanthropy either. I honestly think he is all about his products, but at the expense of everything else. And that shows.

As @mr_roboto showed the media did cover him critically when there was cause to and those of us who were paying attention did take note. That this was largely overlooked by society until it became blatant, except I guess not blatant enough for you?*, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or wasn’t a problem.

As for rest, you’re giving him way too much credit. What part of his “overriding ambition to push technological progress above everything” led him to purchase Twitter for $44 billion and spend his “limited” time constantly tweeting and retweeting some of the worst right wing culture warriors/fascists/Nazis/white supremacists? What part of it causes him to be a “free speech absolutist” when such views are on the line but not when criticism of him is, which is pretty typical of “free speech absolutists”. In that vein, which part was the cause of him talking about how the previous Twitter suspension of the Babylon Bee for transphobia was the worst thing ever and the sign of the destruction of society and other examples of him being pretty explicitly transphobic?

This is who he is. Oh and his claims to a lack of extravagance in his personal life have largely to be shown to be bullshit. Could he have a larger conspicuous consumption? Sure, but he ain’t skimped on the luxury.

Edit: *I’m actually curious what it would take for you to say someone is a bigot? I mean in my view tolerating bigotry against your workforce is condoning it and is an example of how someone’s innate bigotry manifests. But obviously we disagree on that front.

 

[AG_PhamD]

As @mr_roboto showed the media did cover him critically when there was cause to and those of us who were paying attention did take note. That this was largely overlooked by society until it became blatant, except I guess not blatant enough for you?*, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or wasn’t a problem.

As for rest, you’re giving him way too much credit. What part of his “overriding ambition to push technological progress above everything” led him to purchase Twitter for $44 billion and spend his “limited” time constantly tweeting and retweeting some of the worst right wing culture warriors/fascists/Nazis/white supremacists? What part of it causes him to be a “free speech absolutist” when such views are on the line but not when criticism of him is, which is pretty typical of “free speech absolutists”. In that vein, which part was the cause of him talking about how the previous Twitter suspension of the Babylon Bee for transphobia was the worst thing ever and the sign of the destruction of society and other examples of him being pretty explicitly transphobic?

This is who he is. Oh and his claims to a lack of extravagance in his personal life have largely to be shown to be bullshit. Could he have a larger conspicuous consumption? Sure, but he ain’t skimped on the luxury.

Edit: *I’m actually curious what it would take for you to say someone is a bigot? I mean in my view tolerating bigotry against your workforce is condoning it, is an example of how someone’s innate bigotry manifests. But obviously we disagree on that front.

I’m not saying these stories weren’t covered, but they weren’t really major news stories. Most of them put more blame on Tesla than they do Musk. As Mr Roboto says, these were not really sustained. And I would argue Musk was still a darling of the media and public up until very recently. And his lies and deception around Tesla was ignored I would imagine because the stock was doing so well.

If you haven’t noticed, the whole free-speech Twitter is a complete charade. He’s garnered support from the right using this “marketing”… but I would not be surprised if sooner or later his interests change and decides to pander elsewhere. His actions don’t actually align with concept of free speech anyone has in mind. I’m not aware of him retweeting neo-Nazis, you’ll have to show me what you’re talking about.

Re: Bigots. Here is the definition:
“a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.”

For me, a bigot must have prejudiced beliefs against a group of people (and usually takes antagonistic actions against them). A failure to intervene in a case such as Tesla does not necessarily imply bigotry… but at best implies negligence. I understand many people would believe a failure to take action is bigotry (with the implication Black people aren’t deserving of such attention), but there are reasons why one might fail deal with an issue like this. That’s not to say just because something may not be motivated bigotry doesn’t mean they’ve done nothing wrong. Obviously Musk has an obligation to deal with such issues appropriately.

Given the track record of Musk’s companies, I would assume the disregard for workplace racism stems from the same place as the disregard of employee safety… which probably stems from the same place as the disregard for properly addressing incidents of workplace sexual harassment (which I forgot to mention before). The common thread is a disrespect for all employees.

 

[dada_dave]

I’m not saying these stories weren’t covered, but they weren’t really major news stories. Most of them put more blame on Tesla than they do Musk. As Mr Roboto says, these were not really sustained. And I would argue Musk was still a darling of the media and public up until very recently. And his lies and deception around Tesla was ignored I would imagine because the stock was doing so well.

Yes but your basing your conception of him - the eccentric engineering genius who pursues technological progress above all else - on the narrative that was formed then rather than what he has shown himself to be - you've never updated your priors.

If you haven’t noticed, the whole free-speech Twitter is a complete charade. He’s garnered support from the right using this “marketing”… but I would not be surprised if sooner or later his interests change and decides to pander elsewhere. His actions don’t actually align with concept of free speech anyone has in mind.

That was *my* point. It wasn't marketing. The bigoted always claim to be free speech warriors whose views are being "censored" (i.e. criticized). It's how they roll, and of course the free speech part is always bullshit. Nobody actually expected it to be anything else. But in their minds that's what they are and it is what Elon is still claiming to be.

I’m not aware of him retweeting neo-Nazis, you’ll have to show me what you’re talking about.

But you are aware of him retweeting fascists and white supremacists? It's in the this thread multiple times. He's replied in the affirmative to the likes of Kim DotCom, Andy Ngo, Ian Miles Cheong, and Laura Loomer. Things like: "totally right" or "rofl" to comments they made regarding his perceived enemies all being pedophiles or isn't amusing how Russia is destroying Ukraine's energy grid. Thankfully while he let Andrew Anglin back on (who btw is waaaaay worse than Kanye), I don't think he's interacted with him ... yet. It's hard to tell about all the accounts because in his relentless effort to drive the progress of technology forwards, Elon spends so much of his time tweeting people that it's hard to search it all or know who they all are. Just look for yourself at what he writes now: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/with_replies You can tell by searching through it that Elon is not personally invested in the extreme right wing culture war. /s

Oh and if you want to question if any of the people above are they really "X"? Just look at them all and what they've had to say about Hitler, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Gays, and other minorities. Oh an what they've said about various hate groups (and on occasions participated with like Andy Ngo).

Re: Bigots. Here is the definition:
“a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.”

For me, a bigot must have prejudiced beliefs against a group of people (and usually takes antagonistic actions against them). A failure to intervene in a case such as Tesla does not necessarily imply bigotry… but at best implies negligence. I understand many people would believe a failure to take action is bigotry (with the implication Black people aren’t deserving of such attention), but there are reasons why one might fail deal with an issue like this. That’s not to say just because something may not be motivated bigotry doesn’t mean they’ve done nothing wrong. Obviously Musk has an obligation to deal with such issues appropriately.

A belief that a group is not experiencing racism or prejudice when they are or that if they are it doesn't matter is indeed bigotry itself. It's a belief that members of that group are just whiners or soft or looking for handouts, etc ... That qualifies even under the strictest interpretation of the definition above.

BTW when pressed on his views toward trans people and how harmful they are Elon Musk doubled down and said "his views will not be censored" (remember he's still a free speech absolutist in his mind). I mean put it together. He runs businesses which have been accused of bigotry towards minorities, he's openly transphobic, he unbans Nazis in the name of free speech while banning journalists who criticize him, and then openly and positively tweets with fascists, anti-semites, and racists? You can't say, gee maybe the guy might be a tiny bit bigoted?

Given the track record of Musk’s companies, I would assume the disregard for workplace racism stems from the same place as the disregard of employee safety… which probably stems from the same place as the disregard for properly addressing incidents of workplace sexual harassment (which I forgot to mention before). The common thread is a disrespect for all employees.

Sure ... all are equally disrespected ... some more equally than others.

 

[dada_dave]

Eoof this thread about Elon’s recent Twitter space meeting with investors is indeed brutal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/waltisfrozen/status/1606127957377810432

It continues on and on …

 

[AG_PhamD]

Yes but your basing your conception of him - the eccentric engineering genius who pursues technological progress above all else - on the narrative that was formed then rather than what he has shown himself to be - you've never updated your priors

I think you’re basing your own conception of my conception of Musk on your own narratives. I never said he was a engineering genius. People treat him like he’s one, he crafts an image of being one, but I’m not convinced that’s the case. He’s obviously not totally incompetent, except maybe socially and when it comes to running Twitter, but AFAIC the achievements he’s made are likely the outcome of the teams of engineers and lots of money. I suspect his strengths revolve around leadership and getting his employees strive for innovation.

That was *my* point. It wasn't marketing. The bigoted always claim to be free speech warriors whose views are being "censored" (i.e. criticized). It's how they roll, and of course the free speech part is always bullshit. Nobody actually expected it to be anything else. But in their minds that's what they are and it is what Elon is still claiming to be.

Okay, so you’re saying everyone that values free speech is actually a bigot or a closeted bigot? One cannot be pro-free speech but not a bigot?

I think there were a lot of people who expected him to bring free speech (or something close to that that’s still commercially viable), most notably the right wing. The right of course doesn’t care about censorship so long as they’re not being the ones censored. And that’s also very true for the left wing as well. By whatever means necessary to have power the opposition…

But you are aware of him retweeting fascists and white supremacists and that's okay? It's in the this thread multiple times. He's replied in the affirmative to the likes of Kim DotCom, Andy Ngo, Ian Miles Cheong, and Laura Loomer. Things like: "totally right" or "rofl" to comments they made regarding his perceived enemies all being pedophiles or isn't amusing how Russia is destroying Ukraine's energy grid. Thankfully while he let Andrew Anglin back on (who btw is waaaaay worse than Kanye), I don't think he's interacted with him ... yet. It's hard to tell about all the accounts because in his relentless effort to drive the progress of technology forwards, Elon spends so much of his time tweeting people that it's hard to search it all or know who they all are. Just look for yourself at what he writes now: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/with_replies You can tell by searching through it that Elon is not personally invested in the right wing culture war. /s

Oh and if you want to question if any of the people above are they really "X"? Just look at them all and what they've had to say about Hitler, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Gays, and other minorities. Oh an what they've said about various hate groups (and on occasions participated with like Andy Ngo).

No, I’m not. Because I don’t use Twitter. I deleted my social media in 2012 and haven’t looked back. You’ll have to be more specific for me. I’ve hastily googled Musk and these people/incidents but haven’t found anything… unless you’ve mistaken retweet and reinstate?

I think you’ve completely misunderstood or misrepresented what I was saying regarding his interest in innovation. It was an observation to which you interpreted as a value statement. But I was saying will pander to whoever he thinks will benefit his business. He is clearly pandering to the right at the moment, but it wasn’t long ago he was a close Obama ally, on the board of Zuckerberg’s Fwd.us immigration group, he supported Clinton and denounced Trump in 2016, etc. I suspect part of his political shift has do with California business regulations and pro-union democrats affecting Tesla. And I think Biden’s early poor performance and the (now false) predictions midterm red wave emboldened him to commit to the right publicly.

I get the sense however you assume everyone that’s on the right is a bigot?

A belief that a group is not experiencing racism or prejudice when they are or that if they are it doesn't matter is indeed bigotry itself. It's a belief that members of that group are just whiners or soft or looking for handouts, etc ... That qualifies even under your definition. BTW when pressed on his views toward trans people and how harmful they are Elon Musk doubled down and said "his views will not be censored" (remember he's still a free speech absolutist in his mind). I mean put it together. He runs businesses which have been accused of bigotry towards minorities, he's openly transphobic, he unbans Nazis in the name of free speech while banning journalists who criticize him, and then openly and positively tweets with fascists, anti-semites, and racists? You can't say, gee maybe the guy might be a tiny bit bigoted?

Who said anything about anyone not believing a group is experiencing bigotry? I would mostly agree, obstinately refusing to accept a person/group is being discriminated or minimizing its effects could and in many cases would be a form bigotry. I would say it’s a different type of bigotry than objective hatred, but indeed a subtle form of bigotry.

I was talking more about knowing there is a problem and doing nothing about it. Based on your comments you seem like a person who would automatically jump to the conclusion that it’s because of hate.

I can say from personal experience, I have been in schools and workplaces where acts of hate have occurred, it is reported, and the administration does nothing to actually address the issue despite being receptive to it. But it’s usually not because they are indeed themselves racist / antisemitic / homophobic or see the incident as insignificant.

Sure ... all are equally disrespected ... some more equally than others.

I’m not sure that’s a fair judgement one can make. How do you judge who is “mistreated” more by a company- a person discriminated by coworkers based on race / ethnicity / gender / sexuality / etc or a person who becomes permanently disabled from a workplace accident because of an systematic lack of proper safety implementations? I don’t think there is an answer to that.

When a company ignores worker’s wellbeing and concerns thereof altogether, there is no equal or unequal treatment since no one is being treated to begin with and all HR issues are just swept under the rug.

 

[dada_dave]

I think you’re basing your own conception of my conception of Musk on your own narratives. I never said he was a engineering genius. People treat him like he’s one, he crafts an image of being one, but I’m not convinced that’s the case. He’s obviously not totally incompetent, except maybe socially and when it comes to running Twitter, but AFAIC the achievements he’s made are likely the outcome of the teams of engineers and lots of money. I suspect his strengths revolve around leadership and getting his employees strive for innovation.

I will say what is actually quite interesting/unique about Musk is that I genuinely don’t think his ambitions have much to do with flaunting and amassing wealth- only to the extent it allows him to follow his passion of developing technology. He doesn’t seem particularly focused on making money for the sake of making money and living the stereotypical billionaire lifestyle. At the same time, he also doesn’t seem to be big into philanthropy either. I honestly think he is all about his products, but at the expense of everything else. And that shows.

That's you. That's what I based my slightly exaggerated view of your above statement, where I merely included the word genius to highlight the ridiculousness of the rest of it when clearly his acquisition of Twitter and his running of it has everything to do with his personal beliefs and not anything to do with striving for technological innovation at all times. It doesn't apply. Twitter, in fact most social networks, are fundamentally not technology companies - not in the traditional sense. They are about users and communities.

Okay, so you’re saying everyone that values free speech is actually a bigot or a closeted bigot? One cannot be pro-free speech but not a bigot?

This is what I said:

The bigoted always claim to be free speech warriors whose views are being "censored" (i.e. criticized). It's how they roll, and of course the free speech part is always bullshit. Nobody actually expected it to be anything else. But in their minds that's what they are and it is what Elon is still claiming to be.

You stated that I said the converse which is the height of bad faith misreading. p => q does not necessarily imply q => p: bigots claim to be free speech warriors does not imply free speech warriors are bigots. Also I said "free speech warrior" implying a performative adulation of free speech, not anyone who values free speech. I also used the word the “claim” likewise implying the opposite. I'm unsure if this problem is in the quality of your reading comprehension or in your argumentation.

I think there were a lot of people who expected him to bring free speech (or something close to that that’s still commercially viable), most notably the right wing. The right of course doesn’t care about censorship so long as they’re not being the ones censored. And that’s also very true for the left wing as well. By whatever means necessary to have power the opposition…

No what the extreme right-wing expected is what they got. They expected a platform far more tolerant of hate with all the Nazis and fascists let back on and they expected the “lefties” (or really anyone else) to get banned when they complained and criticized. Oh and for your statements below, please note the use of the word *extreme* when combined with the right wing. While they may have effectively taken over the right’s political power, I did not in fact include everyone with a conservative viewpoint.

No, I’m not. Because I don’t use Twitter. I deleted my social media in 2012 and haven’t looked back. You’ll have to be more specific for me. I’ve hastily googled Musk and these people/incidents but haven’t found anything… unless you’ve mistaken retweet and reinstate?

I think you’ve completely misunderstood or misrepresented what I was saying regarding his interest in innovation. It was an observation to which you interpreted as a value statement. But I was saying will pander to whoever he thinks will benefit his business. He is clearly pandering to the right at the moment, but it wasn’t long ago he was a close Obama ally, on the board of Zuckerberg’s Fwd.us immigration group, he supported Clinton and denounced Trump in 2016, etc. I suspect part of his political shift has do with California business regulations and pro-union democrats affecting Tesla. And I think Biden’s early poor performance and the (now false) predictions midterm red wave emboldened him to commit to the right publicly.

I get the sense however you assume everyone that’s on the right is a bigot?

No I call bigots, bigots. Because they are. If you don't know who these people are, good for you! I'm glad your life is so insulated as to not have to care. Others aren't so lucky. No I didn't confuse retweet and reinstate - some of these assholes never got booted in the first place. He’s talked to all of them, some on a regular basis. There are screenshots in the thread and you can find them in the link I just sent you above. I even mentioned some of the things he would say to them, so no it’s not just about reinstatement. The only one he hasn't interacted with (so far as I can tell) is Andrew Anglin, who would be the worst though not by as large of a margin as it should be. And there the mere reinstatement is bad enough.

Here's an example from this thread:

Musk offers to buy Twitter

Edit: this is not where I thought I was posting

talkedabout.com

Oh and now he openly supports DeSantis who is Trump's mini-me turned wannabe usurper because Trump wasn't far enough to the right on Covid. Do people change that drastically? Maybe. Regardless it is who he is now and again the point of these posts are that there were warning signs that this part of he always was.

If nothing else his transphobia is on pretty full display, I mean I posted about it right here, not just in this thread but right after my reply to you:

Musk offers to buy Twitter

Here's a warning flag from 2018. Variations on this story kept popping up many times over the years, but never got sustained national press attention. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/business/tesla-factory-racism.html Money quote which makes it clear why these problems persisted: In an...

talkedabout.com

I should also stress that you basically just admitted to arguing over his bigotry or lack thereof without actually paying attention as to what is happening right now. Which is why I keep trying to tell you that you have not updated your priors. If you are not on Twitter, don’t see what he’s saying or with whom or how he is talking, then why are you arguing with people who do?

Who said anything about anyone not believing a group is experiencing bigotry? I would mostly agree, obstinately refusing to accept a person/group is being discriminated or minimizing its effects could and in many cases would be a form bigotry. I would say it’s a different type of bigotry than objective hatred, but indeed a subtle form of bigotry.

I was talking more about knowing there is a problem and doing nothing about it. Based on your comments you seem like a person who would automatically jump to the conclusion that it’s because of hate.

I can say from personal experience, I have been in schools and workplaces where acts of hate have occurred, it is reported, and the administration does nothing to actually address the issue despite being receptive to it. But it’s usually not because they are indeed themselves racist / antisemitic / homophobic or see the incident as insignificant.

If you are at the top of an institution and you breed a culture of bigotry at said institution, which lets be clear that is what Tesla is accused of here not a single incident, then yes at some level you must be tolerant of that bigotry. It is in fact the legal standard by which places like California go after companies and institutions for failing to address sexism and racism in the workplace - sadly the state lacks the wherewithal to go after everyone who deserves it which is why it is still so prevalent even in "liberal" California. Activision-Blizzard was a toxic stew for decades before the state finally sued them. And before you ask yes that means I think that institutionally the state doesn't value discrimination in the workplace cases and yes this is part of the structural bigotry that still pervades our society. Fixing that will take years if not many more decades of work.

I’m not sure that’s a fair judgement one can make. How do you judge who is “mistreated” more by a company- a person discriminated by coworkers based on race / ethnicity / gender / sexuality / etc or a person who becomes permanently disabled from a workplace accident because of an systematic lack of proper safety implementations? I don’t think there is an answer to that.

When a company ignores worker’s wellbeing and concerns thereof altogether, there is no equal or unequal treatment since no one is being treated to begin with and all HR issues are just swept under the rug.

This is a nonsensical argument - even if we accepted your hypothesis expressed here that he could just hate all workers equally who knows what’s in his heart when he fails to deal with bigotry, the entire point of mine and @mr_roboto and @Andropov and @Nycturne was that these were red flags as to who he was stretching back years that explain his current behavior of which you are, by your own admission, largely ignorant. In other words we can combine them what’s happening now to say, yup those aren’t just blips. Edit: you in contrast contend that they aren’t indicative of anything and are just being used to smear him because he’s espoused right-wing views. Well which right wing views are we talking about? We aren’t talking about wanting low taxes … we’re talking about the ones above expressed as a full flung member of the far right culture wars which yes is rife with bigotry and hate.

 

[diamond.g]

Eoof this thread about Elon’s recent Twitter space meeting with investors is indeed brutal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/waltisfrozen/status/1606127957377810432

View attachment 20287
View attachment 20288

View attachment 20289

It continues on and on …

Yeah if we don't hear from the SEC on Tuesday....

 

[Scepticalscribe]

@dada_dave; @Nycturne: In addition to the stuff you have cited, there were also plenty of ugly and unpleasant red flags re Mr Musk's unreconstructed attitudes to women.

There were signs, but if you weren’t following him on social media where he was unfiltered, you would absolutely miss it. It’s just kinda amazing how people can have their eccentricities sanitized in news outlets to be honest. And that benefits people like Musk, Weinstein, and others who are much uglier people once you get a glimpse beyond the sanitized reporting.

I mostly saw the signs because I am in LGBT circles on Twitter and a couple other places. But even then, his open flirting with the alt-right is pretty recent, but can be traced back to the early pandemic, I believe.

Same here. First sign I can remember was ~2018 with that whole thing about the Thai rescue diver Elon called a "pedo". I brushed it off back then as something just weird to say, maybe because I was pretty excited about SpaceX at the time. Then 2020 happened and he started mocking people with pronouns in their bios and his discourse got increasingly more openly hateful and I think that was when my opinion about him started to plunge. He forcing workers to go back to the factory amid the initial COVID-19 lockdown certainly didn't help.
After that, this has been ~2 years of him doing that thing people who get tangled up with the alt-right do: listening only to his own echo-chamber, started showing a mentality of 'us' vs 'them'... I've seen it before. It's sad.

Yes, there were signs, warning signs about his attitudes to race, ethnicity, and also, his appalling attitudes to (and about) women.

Well he was in the right place over the weekend to look for some capital infusions, we may just have assumed it was all about Twitter, but... maybe not!

Washington Post piece, paywall removed: https://wapo.st/3Whz6EQ

"From Jared Kushner to Salt Bae: Here’s who Elon Musk was seen with at the World Cup"

As my dear old granny (who trained as a primary teacher over a century ago, qualifying as a teacher in the years immediately preceding the First World War), used to say, (a remark frequently cited, approvingly, by my mother): "Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are."

Yeah, in retrospect there were several red flags. I used to dismiss the small things like language choices as simple eccentricities. I was wrong.

Language choices are exactly that: They are choices, and if people choose to use epiteths or expressions that they know to be offensive, hurtful or harmful, then, what should be stressed is not "free speech absolutism", or the right to say what you like, but, rather, the fact that you have chosen to use words (because you can, because you have that power, you have that privilege) that clearly express your contempt for others, because you choose to use words that you know full well will wound, hurt, harm, insult or offend others.

 

[SuperMatt]

@AG_PhamD How far does somebody’s bigotry have to go before others are allowed to call them a bigot?

To all: why do so many people seem to think being called a bigot is worse than being a bigot?

I see this kind of whining (mainly from right wing media and regular people in its orbit), and it goes so far that white people are now claiming to be facing increased discrimination. I guess it doesn’t matter that the data say otherwise.

The Truth about Anti-White Discrimination

Many white Americans feel that discrimination against whites is on the rise. Experiments suggests otherwise

www.scientificamerican.com

It’s real simple: if you don’t want people to call you a racist or a bigot, don’t be one. Musk failed in this simple task, repeatedly.

 

[Nycturne]

@dada_dave; @Nycturne: In addition to the stuff you have cited, there were also plenty of ugly and unpleasant red flags re Mr Musk's unreconstructed attitudes to women.

As I’ve seen said in the trans community: scratch a transphobe and you’ll find more ugliness underneath. Replace transphobe with other forms of discrimination, and I think it still holds true. Once you feel it’s okay to create a hierarchy where one group of people automatically are placed above another, it’s not a big leap for that person to believe that should apply to more groups.

It’s something I’ve seen in folks who ”believe” in a meritocracy, specifically people who believe the US is one. When asked why group A, B or C are under-represented in their meritocracy, I’ve seen one after another try to justify the status quo. It’s exhausting at times dealing with this in the tech industry.

 

[dada_dave]

When sucking up to the boss doesn’t work out:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Atrios/status/1606347985838751744

Edit: Btw he’s talking about the people they brought back who weren’t supposed to have been let go in the first place. This a good but long thread:

https://mobile.twitter.com/williampietri/status/1591502124977950720

 

[Eric]

When you listen to Musk's statements they're just all over the place, now he wants to take the code back to base but cannot explain why, how it would be done or even forumate the slightest plan. Every decision he makes is done so on impulse, just sounding off the cuff and sounding nonsensical.

One thing he said that I agree with though, it can't be saved. He went in there with a wrecking ball, tanked both Twitter and Tesla and now is going to hand it off to someone else to go down with the ship.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I know it's immature, but I'm really enjoying watching Elons downfall of late

He's become such an unsavory character (perhaps always was one), and I find it refreshing to watch at least some amount of humble pie getting delivered to his plate.

It's rare that billionaires take any actual "L's" in life -- and basically all of this is self inflicted, so it really is hard to be sympathetic, even if one were inclined to lean that way.

 

[lizkat]

I know it's immature, but I'm really enjoying watching Elons downfall of late

He's become such an unsavory character (perhaps always was one), and I find it refreshing to watch at least some amount of humble pie getting delivered to his plate.

It's rare that billionaires take any actual "L's" in life -- and basically all of this is self inflicted, so it really is hard to be sympathetic, even if one were inclined to lean that way.

All I know for sure is that the whole planet should have saved the "dumpster fire" meme for Elon Musk.

 

[turbineseaplane]

All I know for sure is that the whole planet should have saved the "dumpster fire" meme for Elon Musk.

On a more serious note, it's really sad and concerning to see people get swallowed whole by the far right meme culture of "everything is woke" and "we are being censored" and "white men are the real victims", on and on. People are going truly off a deep end in that direction

 

[lizkat]

On a more serious note, it's really sad and concerning to see people get swallowed whole by the far right meme culture of "everything is woke" and "we are being censored" and "white men are the real victims", on and on. People are going truly off a deep end in that direction

Yes, What gets obscured is that the right wants things their way and the left wants there to be choice, which latter of course implies negotiation and compromise when it comes to legislation.

Leaving as much choice --freedom!-- as possible to the most people while retaining a rule of law and ability to enforce it is a democratic principle, and it's an inclusive one by definition. We fall short of the ideal sometimes, because of course it's true one can't please all of the people all of the time.

Still though, the intent of the Rs in recent decades seems to be to narrow rather than expand the list of whose rights are to be respected, and therefore the list of those who shall benefit from both lawmaking and agency rule-making.

That's not about choice, or freedom. It's about attempts to consolidate power to a minority that has turned to touting fear of a nonexistent "tyranny of the majority." A majority that votes for choice is not tyrannical... at least not until it becomes apparent that winning elections honestly by a majority no longer means ability to govern choicefully, and at that point a situation can tip into anarchy. Anyone sane does not wish for that.

Why the Republicans have decided to abandon freedom for authoritarianism is a mystery to me because conservatives were once fans of personal liberty. Today's "conservatives" prefer obstruction of choice and substitution of poison pills attached to bills when they can't get what they want through negotiations.

One wonders when the GOP will realize that obstructionism and acceptance of cult-like leadership tactics are not sustainable strategies for an American political party. Perhaps the tide is already turning. The omnibus bill just passed got 68 votes in the Senate and 225 in the House. Those numbers do include some Republican votes, despite the stridency of the party's far right groups.

Naturally no member of Congress could possibly have known every detail of what was in the 4K pages of that bill. But they all did know that the Electoral Count Reform Act was incorporated... and that means that the Republican Party members of Congress do know that they can never allow to happen again the attempted overthrow of an election as was attempted on January 6, 2021.

Edit: didn't mean to drift this away from Musk... "I didn't start it" lol.

 

[Macky-Mac]

When you listen to Musk's statements they're just all over the place, now he wants to take the code back to base but cannot explain why, how it would be done or even forumate the slightest plan. Every decision he makes is done so on impulse, just sounding off the cuff and sounding nonsensical....

it's a bit like listening to Trump talk about things

 

[lizkat]

it's a bit like listening to Trump talk about things

Trump at least had a few people who were better at saying "uh, no" to him once in awhile. But that's because there was the Constitution sometimes standing between his big mouth and people actually doing whatever he said to do. Some on his team had read that document and saw red flags in time to say no.

Elon's pretty much unfettered though. Seems like only the regulators or banks/co-investors get to say no.