Racism in Europe, refugees, and topics tangentially related to the war in Ukraine

I've never been to Ukraine (although I've read a bit about it and I've kept an eye on news about it since 2014). However, I've worked with quite a few Ukrainians and many Eastern Europeans. It would be a mistake to think that Ukraine is full with modern, forward thinking people.
Absolutely. And this applies to humanity in general.
The general rule of thumb that Eastern Europeans are very racist still stands, so that behaviour doesn't come as a surprise.
And the general rule that Western Europeans think they are morally superior still stands as well. After all, english and spanish became world languages because people all over the world were like, "wow, this is a cool language! let's learn it and get rid of our own". But snark aside, that's a very generalized statement that misses out on significant nuance. Eastern Europeans are straight shooters, sometimes simply blunt. So racism will manifest explicitly as well. In the west, it's implicit but often veiled in policy justified by affinity bias.

I'll add that you'll get a certain selection bias for people who are not on the frontlines but still want to exert dominance and manhood. I'd imagine those people imposing the racist shit at the borders.

The recent turn towards the West and the EU is a very strong indicator that attitudes are changing, but you don't change decades of isolationism overnight.
It's a very generational thing. You grew up in a multicultural/multinational environment where people move and mingle freely. Those who grew up behind the iron curtain hadn't had that many opportunities to see the world. Some did, but the average person had much more limited access and means. Millennials are much more accepting.

Just an anecdote, but it's quite representative of the situation: I was recently –a couple of years ago– asked by a Romanian how I could be okay with my girlfriend earning more than me. I answered that I was her participation trophy husband and that I expected her to make more than me, but the joke fell flat.
That person was just too stuck up. My wife made more money than me probably half of the time we spent together. I guess it's a sign that I'm a pretty man, or something (I'm not, LOL).
 
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On another tangent, Brittney Griner was arrested in Russia for supposedly possessing a vape cartridge with hashish oil. Some interesting things I’m learning from this.

1. Read the comments on this - Fox News lovers still hate black people way more than Vladimir Putin.


2. Marijuana possession up to 6 grams in Russia means a fine and/or up to 15 days detention. Considering this is a vape cartridge, it’s certainly less than that… but they are threatening 10 years. No surprise - this is pure politics. And who knows if the charge is even true. Russia charges people with fake crimes all the time.

3. Female basketball players average $100K a season in the WNBA (league minimum below $40k!!!!). Griner was making $1 million per season in Russia. The absurdly low pay of female athletes in America has real consequences. Not that anybody will care.


How disgusting is the right-wing, attacking this woman instead of condemning the Russian war, which is killing Ukrainian civilians every day? Women and minorities are still worse than Putin in the eyes of many Americans.
 
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On another tangent, Brittney Griner was arrested in Russia for supposedly possessing a vape cartridge with hashish oil. Some interesting things I’m learning from this.
And why was she taken into custody weeks ago, and we’re only just now hearing about it? This story keeps changing. First she was arrested for having a vape, and now it’s possession of hashish. WTF?
 
So, here in Europe we love to point fingers at how incredibly racist America is. But the thing is that even though America is currently experiencing a new golden age for white supremacy, we Europeans must remember that the ideas of white supremacy were invented over here and are still alive and well here. I have not absorbed this thread in enough detail to pass any judgment on who said what and exactly how crazy that is, but I think we are past the point where no intellectually honest person can still claim that different groups of refugees are not being treated differently. So it would seem the only relevant question that remains would be why it is so.

For example, during the height of the Syrian refugee crisis Denmark was at the forefront of making nasty laws to encourage refugees to choose some other destination instead. Why then is Denmark sending buses to Poland to round up Ukrainians and drive them to Denmark? Is the difference due to Denmark being Europe's Alabama and they have a problem with brown people, or is it because the closeness to the war in Ukraine has brought forth memories of the Danish experience during WW2? I have contemplated this and come to the conclusion that the only reasonable answer to that question is "a little bit of both".

Oh, and isn't it fascinating how easy it is for a Ukrainian to get into Poland in the first place, even if they didn't have time to bring their passport? The attitudes to refugees in Eastern Europe have already been discussed in this thread. I have a colleague who thinks it is appropriate to use Pepe the Frog as his profile picture in his Microsoft Teams work account, and I know none of you will be surprised to hear that he is from Poland. But Poland also has an extremely vivid memory specifically of Russian imperialism. They have an understanding of what is going on right now that is qualitatively different from how most of us in this forum perceive this war. My conclusion is that also in the Polish case the answer is "a little bit of both".

And don't think I am going to end this rant before I have roasted myself as well. My prejudices against Danes, Poles and Alabamans are here for all to see, but is there also something more I can learn from the way I have reacted to this invasion myself? For example why is it that already one week into this new war I had already donated more to the relief effort than I did in total throughout the entire Syrian refugee crisis? Is it only because of the geographical distance is shorter now? Just because I have visited Ukraine and the war is hurting people I have actually met? Because I have seen pictures of volunteers stacking sand bags in the street outside my hotel in Kyiv? Or is it because I for some less than noble reason can identify more with Ukrainians than Syrians? Do I hold some kind of cynical view that war is somehow more normal in certain parts of the world than others? And as filthy as it makes me feel to say it, I can't really say I am sure it is not "a little bit of both" once again.

That being said, the war is starting to feel closer now here in Sweden. Russia violates our airspace about 20 times per year, but most of the time it is just an incursion of convenience such as a patrol of fighters taking a shortcut through a corner of our airspace for a short while. Last week's incursion was a classic cold-war-style incursion where bombers with a fighter escort turned sharply into Swedish airspace to measure our response time, not turning away from their target until they were intercepted by Swedish fighters. We are not in NATO and we are also a much softer target compared to Finland, and there is a lot of talk about the strategic importance of Gotland island for any further Russian aggression in the Baltic region. Also, some of our supermarket shelves are starting to look a bit empty, like a smaller version of the great toilet paper frenzy of 2020. And on my way home from the supermarket I saw something I have never seen before in this street.

Capture.PNG


The dashcam on my bike sits a bit low so you can't see all of it, but the line of Ukrainian refugees outside the Migration Agency service center stretches to the end of the block and around the corner down the crossing street. Ukrainian citizens with a valid passport can stay in Sweden for 90 days for any or no reason without applying for any permits or refugee status, so the visit to this office is not a legal requirement. The people in this line are mostly those who need assistance because they don't know where they are going to sleep tonight or don't have anything to eat. The picture is taken 50 minutes before the service center opens in the morning and the ones in the beginning of the line have a good chance of being processed, but not everyone will get their turn the same day. Some will try again the next day, and some will go on to other cities where the service centers may be less overloaded.
 
Thought I would also use this thread to discuss anti-Russian excess and overreaction. I've heard of Dostoevsky being removed from a university curriculum (though this decision was eventually reversed), Tchaikovsky being removed from a symphony program, Russian blues banned from cat competitions, the list goes on. Boycotting Russian commerce is one thing and I support economic sanctions, including boycotts and bans. I do not support this ridiculous kind of excessive cultural rejection that happens every time there is a conflict. Let's be better than that. (Especially since it can lead to bigotry against Russian Americans, which is already starting).
 
Thought I would also use this thread to discuss anti-Russian excess and overreaction. I've heard of Dostoevsky being removed from a university curriculum (though this decision was eventually reversed), Tchaikovsky being removed from a symphony program, Russian blues banned from cat competitions, the list goes on. Boycotting Russian commerce is one thing and I support economic sanctions, including boycotts and bans. I do not support this ridiculous kind of excessive cultural rejection that happens every time there is a conflict. Let's be better than that. (Especially since it can lead to bigotry against Russian Americans, which is already starting).
Unfortunately your thread got the posts that seemed to upset a few in another thread who asked for those posts to be moved, as it added an a different unpleasant look at what was also occurring.

I apologize if it derails the original intent of your thread.

I believe though, that is the reason "tangentially" was added though, as to act as an umbrella for a variety of discussion here now.
 
No problem. I wanted this to be a miscellaneous thread where we could talk about things related to the conflict that might question or at least point out the negative side of some of the mainstream narratives.
 
To explain what –in my opinion– plays a part in the reaction of the people towards Ukrainian refugees vs Syrian refugees, i'd like to post a couple of screenshots:

From Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Ukrainian war:

Screenshot 2022-03-13 at 14.26.10.jpg


Again from Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Syrian war:

Screenshot 2022-03-08 at 11.01.14.jpg

Screenshot 2022-03-08 at 11.01.28.jpg


Ukraine is a country we can relate to, and in this war it's pretty much clear-cut: there's good guys and bad guys, just like in WW2. You have a bully attacking a victim.
In contrast, I tried to follow the Syrian civil war for a while, and I could never wrap my head around it. There were also bad guys (ISIS, Assad) but it quickly became an absolute mess, with factions, sub factions, centuries-old rivalries between ethnoreligious groups few people have ever heard about.
 
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To explain what –in my opinion– plays a part in the reaction of the people towards Ukrainian refugees vs Syrian refugees, i'd like to post a couple of screenshots:

From Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Ukrainian war:

View attachment 12424

Again from Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Syrian war:

View attachment 12423
View attachment 12422

Ukraine is a country we can relate to, and in this war it's pretty much clear-cut: there's good guys and bad guys, just like in WW2. You have a bully attacking a victim.
In contrast, I tried to follow the Syrian civil war for a while, and I could never wrap my head around it. There were also bad guys (ISIS, Assad) but it quickly became an absolute mess, with factions, sub factions, centuries-old rivalries between ethnoreligious groups few people have ever heard about.
Ignorance is one of the reasons given here. Europeans can’t figure out the situation in Syria, so… oh well, too bad kids are dying from falling bombs 🤷‍♂️ . Maybe Turkey will take them in; they seem to understand those people “over there.” And “ethnoreligious groups few people have ever heard about” is nonsense. Many people know all about those groups… just not many people in EUROPE know about them. Most people in Syria probably don’t know the difference between Polish or German or French people… or religious sects such as Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran either. And yet, wars were fought over such arbitrary divisions.

There are always reasons. Children fleeing from their neighborhood being bombed don’t know about or care about any of that.

All this from supposedly Christian societies of America and Europe. Jesus preached consistently about helping the marginalized and reaching out to those shunned by the society he lived in.

LOTS of explanations why Europe is bending over backwards to accommodate Ukrainian refugees after telling Africans what Mary and Joseph were told: “The inn is full.”

Perhaps some should think long and hard about why they care MORE when a Ukrainian child is homeless due to their home getting bombed by Russian planes… than a Syrian child in the exact same situation. Caring more about people similar to us - seems to be an aspect of human nature. It’s an aspect we should aspire to rise above, instead of using it as an excuse.

I’d like to see: “It is wrong to value Ukrainian lives more than African lives.” Once that is said, perhaps THEN a discussion of WHY people don’t feel that way is warranted. Until that’s said, everything in the above post (and a number of other similar posts by others) comes across (to me) as an excuse for the discrimination.
 
Ignorance is one of the reasons given here. Europeans can’t figure out the situation in Syria, so… oh well, too bad kids are dying from falling bombs 🤷‍♂️ . Maybe Turkey will take them in; they seem to understand those people “over there.” And “ethnoreligious groups few people have ever heard about” is nonsense. Many people know all about those groups… just not many people in EUROPE know about them. Most people in Syria probably don’t know the difference between Polish or German or French people… or religious sects such as Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran either. And yet, wars were fought over such arbitrary divisions.

There are always reasons. Children fleeing from their neighborhood being bombed don’t know about or care about any of that.

All this from supposedly Christian societies of America and Europe. Jesus preached consistently about helping the marginalized and reaching out to those shunned by the society he lived in.

LOTS of explanations why Europe is bending over backwards to accommodate Ukrainian refugees after telling Africans what Mary and Joseph were told: “The inn is full.”

Perhaps some should think long and hard about why they care MORE when a Ukrainian child is homeless due to their home getting bombed by Russian planes… than a Syrian child in the exact same situation. Caring more about people similar to us - seems to be an aspect of human nature. It’s an aspect we should aspire to rise above, instead of using it as an excuse.

I’d like to see: “It is wrong to value Ukrainian lives more than African lives.” Once that is said, perhaps THEN a discussion of WHY people don’t feel that way is warranted. Until that’s said, everything in the above post (and a number of other similar posts by others) comes across (to me) as an excuse for the discrimination.
I don't disagree, I'm merely telling what I believe is a factor.
 
So, here in Europe we love to point fingers at how incredibly racist America is. But the thing is that even though America is currently experiencing a new golden age for white supremacy, we Europeans must remember that the ideas of white supremacy were invented over here and are still alive and well here. I have not absorbed this thread in enough detail to pass any judgment on who said what and exactly how crazy that is, but I think we are past the point where no intellectually honest person can still claim that different groups of refugees are not being treated differently. So it would seem the only relevant question that remains would be why it is so.

For example, during the height of the Syrian refugee crisis Denmark was at the forefront of making nasty laws to encourage refugees to choose some other destination instead. Why then is Denmark sending buses to Poland to round up Ukrainians and drive them to Denmark? Is the difference due to Denmark being Europe's Alabama and they have a problem with brown people, or is it because the closeness to the war in Ukraine has brought forth memories of the Danish experience during WW2? I have contemplated this and come to the conclusion that the only reasonable answer to that question is "a little bit of both".

Oh, and isn't it fascinating how easy it is for a Ukrainian to get into Poland in the first place, even if they didn't have time to bring their passport? The attitudes to refugees in Eastern Europe have already been discussed in this thread. I have a colleague who thinks it is appropriate to use Pepe the Frog as his profile picture in his Microsoft Teams work account, and I know none of you will be surprised to hear that he is from Poland. But Poland also has an extremely vivid memory specifically of Russian imperialism. They have an understanding of what is going on right now that is qualitatively different from how most of us in this forum perceive this war. My conclusion is that also in the Polish case the answer is "a little bit of both".

And don't think I am going to end this rant before I have roasted myself as well. My prejudices against Danes, Poles and Alabamans are here for all to see, but is there also something more I can learn from the way I have reacted to this invasion myself? For example why is it that already one week into this new war I had already donated more to the relief effort than I did in total throughout the entire Syrian refugee crisis? Is it only because of the geographical distance is shorter now? Just because I have visited Ukraine and the war is hurting people I have actually met? Because I have seen pictures of volunteers stacking sand bags in the street outside my hotel in Kyiv? Or is it because I for some less than noble reason can identify more with Ukrainians than Syrians? Do I hold some kind of cynical view that war is somehow more normal in certain parts of the world than others? And as filthy as it makes me feel to say it, I can't really say I am sure it is not "a little bit of both" once again.

That being said, the war is starting to feel closer now here in Sweden. Russia violates our airspace about 20 times per year, but most of the time it is just an incursion of convenience such as a patrol of fighters taking a shortcut through a corner of our airspace for a short while. Last week's incursion was a classic cold-war-style incursion where bombers with a fighter escort turned sharply into Swedish airspace to measure our response time, not turning away from their target until they were intercepted by Swedish fighters. We are not in NATO and we are also a much softer target compared to Finland, and there is a lot of talk about the strategic importance of Gotland island for any further Russian aggression in the Baltic region. Also, some of our supermarket shelves are starting to look a bit empty, like a smaller version of the great toilet paper frenzy of 2020. And on my way home from the supermarket I saw something I have never seen before in this street.

View attachment 12334

The dashcam on my bike sits a bit low so you can't see all of it, but the line of Ukrainian refugees outside the Migration Agency service center stretches to the end of the block and around the corner down the crossing street. Ukrainian citizens with a valid passport can stay in Sweden for 90 days for any or no reason without applying for any permits or refugee status, so the visit to this office is not a legal requirement. The people in this line are mostly those who need assistance because they don't know where they are going to sleep tonight or don't have anything to eat. The picture is taken 50 minutes before the service center opens in the morning and the ones in the beginning of the line have a good chance of being processed, but not everyone will get their turn the same day. Some will try again the next day, and some will go on to other cities where the service centers may be less overloaded.
Excellent, nunaced, thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

To explain what –in my opinion– plays a part in the reaction of the people towards Ukrainian refugees vs Syrian refugees, i'd like to post a couple of screenshots:

From Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Ukrainian war:

View attachment 12424

Again from Wikipedia, here are the belligerents in the Syrian war:

snip


Ukraine is a country we can relate to, and in this war it's pretty much clear-cut: there's good guys and bad guys, just like in WW2. You have a bully attacking a victim.
In contrast, I tried to follow the Syrian civil war for a while, and I could never wrap my head around it. There were also bad guys (ISIS, Assad) but it quickly became an absolute mess, with factions, sub factions, centuries-old rivalries between ethnoreligious groups few people have ever heard about.
And another interesting post.
 
Another tangent I’d like to discuss is the Republicans taking this opportunity to attack Joe Biden over gas prices. I find it shameless and anti-patriotic.

It used to be that people were willing to sacrifice in times of war. Unfortunately, Bush in the early 2000s decided to do away with that. Instead of raising taxes to pay for the war, he borrowed a few trillion bucks and cut taxes on the wealthy at the same time.

Here’s a link to an interesting discussion of not just the Republican criticism of oil prices, but the media repeating their critique as if it was true…

(paywall removed)

So if GOP talking points are factually incorrect, why does the White House press corps repeat them, giving them the air of legitimacy? It is part of a familiar pattern in which mainstream TV reporters and White House press equalize the two political parties. Republicans say X; the White House says Y. That is the prevalent notion of “balance” and being tough on an administration (even though the current one does not routinely lie, the way its predecessor did). When facts are verifiable, the media’s pretense of balance is misleading.

Even more egregiously, TV news media fails to confront Republicans about their provably false allegations. You simply do not hear TV interviewers ask Republicans: “Since the Keystone XL Pipeline would not have increased supply, why do you keep using its cancellation to attack the White House?” “Energy companies can pump all the oil they want from private lands and even begin drilling on lands with unused leases, so how is this the White House’s fault?” (Even more rarely do you get a succinct explanation that oil prices are set globally in the international marketplace.)
 
Stories of two very different refugee experiences on the same day.

(paywall removed)

KUZNICA, Poland — On the day war broke out in Ukraine, Albagir, a 22-year-old refugee from Sudan, was lying on the frozen forest floor at the gateway to Poland, trying to stay alive.

Drones sent by the Polish border patrol were looking for him. So were helicopters. It was night, with subzero temperatures and snow everywhere. Albagir, a pre-med student, and a small band of African refugees were trying to sneak into Poland, down to the last few shriveled dates in their pockets.

“We were losing hope,” he said.

That same night in a small town near Odessa, Katya Maslova, 21, grabbed a suitcase and her tablet, which she uses for her animation work, and jumped with her family into a burgundy Toyota Rav 4. They rushed off in a four-car convoy with eight adults and five children, part of the frantic exodus of people trying to escape war-torn Ukraine.

Over the next two weeks, what would happen to these two refugees crossing into the same country at the same time, both about the same age, could not stand in starker contrast. Albagir was punched in the face, called racial slurs and left in the hands of a border guard who, Albagir said, brutally beat him and seemed to enjoy doing it. Katya wakes up every day to a stocked fridge and fresh bread on the table, thanks to a man she calls a saint.
 
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