Racism in Europe, refugees, and topics tangentially related to the war in Ukraine

More reporters down :( I don't care what network they are from, the put their lives on the line to cover these things. Nothing but respect for every one of them.


Ukraine war: Fox News cameraman and Ukrainian journalist killed in attack near Kyiv​

Pierre Zakrzewski had been travelling in a vehicle near Kyiv with correspondent Benjamin Hall, who was injured, and Ukrainian journalist Oleksandra Kuvshinova, who was also killed.

Agreed. Anyone covering the situation on the ground to show the world what is happening deserves respect. Especially when at the very least the Russians have little to no regard for civilian life.

Back on the Tulsi topic… as I said I don’t take too much issue with what she said even though I disagree. Tucker Carlson’s commentary on “secret bioweapons labs” is far more misleading and disturbing. What frankly disturbs me more are the calls to have these people arrested or whatever. As wrong as these people might be, especially Tucker, if we go around censoring or arresting people for their opinions or statements, we aren’t much different than the Russian government.

I think the best way to combat misinformation and bad opinions is with information. Calling for people to be jailed or censored and then in the next breath express outrage over Russia arresting protestors and dissenting journalists has a degree of hypocrisy to it.

That said, I think Fox needs to reconsider letting such bad takes being broadcast for their own reputation. But that’s on them I suppose.
 
Agreed. Anyone covering the situation on the ground to show the world what is happening deserves respect. Especially when at the very least the Russians have little to no regard for civilian life.

Back on the Tulsi topic… as I said I don’t take too much issue with what she said even though I disagree. Tucker Carlson’s commentary on “secret bioweapons labs” is far more misleading and disturbing. What frankly disturbs me more are the calls to have these people arrested or whatever. As wrong as these people might be, especially Tucker, if we go around censoring or arresting people for their opinions or statements, we aren’t much different than the Russian government.

I think the best way to combat misinformation and bad opinions is with information. Calling for people to be jailed or censored and then in the next breath express outrage over Russia arresting protestors and dissenting journalists has a degree of hypocrisy to it.

That said, I think Fox needs to reconsider letting such bad takes being broadcast for their own reputation. But that’s on them I suppose.
The nonsense from Gabbard goes along with Russian propaganda that Ukraine is making bio weapons and Russia needs to stop them.

Russia is murdering civilians using her talking points as an excuse.

But you don’t “take issue” with it?

And a couple cable-news blowhards saying she should be censored (I assume… I didn’t see such calls myself) is of more concern to you than her giving air to Russian propaganda in the face of their slaughter of civilians?

To be absolutely clear, no government official in America is locking up Tulsi Gabbard. She hasn’t been barred from Fox. She hasn’t had her Twitter account revoked. She’s not in jail. But somehow you think this is no different than Russian censorship? Take a breath, look around, turn on the TV, see that we clearly have a free press, and on any day you can find a right-winger telling a left-winger they should be censored or vice versa… and yet it never happens because… the system works. I’m free to say that I wish Mr. X should be censored and Mr. X is free to say that I should be censored. In reality, nobody is being censored by the American government.

And BTW, Fox’s propaganda and lies aren’t just “on them” - they are dangerous and the pandemic has shown us clearly how dangerous they are. They are giving support to Russia, with Carlson appearing on their state TV.
 
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The nonsense from Gabbard goes along with Russian propaganda that Ukraine is making bio weapons and Russia needs to stop them.

Russia is murdering civilians using her talking points as an excuse.

But you don’t “take issue” with it?

And a couple cable-news blowhards saying she should be censored (I assume… I didn’t see such calls myself) is of more concern to you than her giving air to Russian propaganda in the face of their slaughter of civilians?

To be absolutely clear, no government official in America is locking up Tulsi Gabbard. She hasn’t been barred from Fox. She hasn’t had her Twitter account revoked. She’s not in jail. But somehow you think this is no different than Russian censorship? Take a breath, look around, turn on the TV, see that we clearly have a free press, and on any day you can find a right-winger telling a left-winger they should be censored or vice versa… and yet it never happens because… the system works. I’m free to say that I wish Mr. X should be censored and Mr. X is free to say that I should be censored. In reality, nobody is being censored by the American government.

And BTW, Fox’s propaganda and lies aren’t just “on them” - they are dangerous and the pandemic has shown us clearly how dangerous they are. They are giving support to Russia, with Carlson appearing on their state TV.

The question of Gabbard all depends on if you believe she has a legitimate concern about BSL-3 labs operating in a war zone and her commentary was a response to Victoria Nuland. comments to Congress- or if she’s subtly parroting the Kremlin because she’s actually a Russian spy. There is a decent swath of the population who doesn’t believe these labs should exist at all and have long been advocating this, well before the war. She makes zero reference to secret labs or bioweapons, unless she has made further comments other than her video. The reality is the Russians took a legitimate issue (labs with potentially major biohazards operating in a war zone) and spun it into their bioweapons narrative.

If you don’t think having potentially major biohazards sitting in a lab in a war zone where the instigator has little regard for even the physical security of nuclear sites, I’m not sure what to say. It shouldn’t be a controversial opinion. This was the concern raised by Nuland aka the Biden Admin herself/itself. Are we to say she is a Putin Puppet?

Tucker on the other hand in his rambling monologue uses all sorts of tools, particularly rhetorical questions, to lead his viewers to a conclusions without explicitly making all the claims he’s implying. He also spends the majority of the time talking about “secret labs” only in the last minute to talk about how these labs were some Obama program… thus refuting his own statements that these labs are secrets. It is my belief he’s promoting this propaganda because it’s a convenient way to carry on his criticism of the whole handling of COVID-19 and riling people up about Fauci, etc. It’s disgusting enough to disseminate such unproven and unlikely information, let alone doing to to support other otherwise unrelated political narratives.

And yes, no one is locking up Gabbard, but there have been some very disturbing calls from highly influential individuals for things like arrest, censorship, etc.

I believe the solution to bad information is fighting it with the truth. There’s plenty of crackpot, false, and unproven ideas posted in the media regularly. You could presumably censor such information, but you can’t prevent it from spreading. And when it comes to conspiracy theories suppressing information only bolsters the legitimacy of such ideas.
 
And yes, no one is locking up Gabbard, but there have been some very disturbing calls from highly influential individuals for things like arrest, censorship, etc.
You mind expanding on this? It’s vague and sounds like something Tucker or Trump would say.
 
The question of Gabbard all depends on if you believe she has a legitimate concern about BSL-3 labs operating in a war zone and her commentary was a response to Victoria Nuland. comments to Congress- or if she’s subtly parroting the Kremlin because she’s actually a Russian spy. There is a decent swath of the population who doesn’t believe these labs should exist at all and have long been advocating this, well before the war. She makes zero reference to secret labs or bioweapons, unless she has made further comments other than her video. The reality is the Russians took a legitimate issue (labs with potentially major biohazards operating in a war zone) and spun it into their bioweapons narrative.

If you don’t think having potentially major biohazards sitting in a lab in a war zone where the instigator has little regard for even the physical security of nuclear sites, I’m not sure what to say. It shouldn’t be a controversial opinion. This was the concern raised by Nuland aka the Biden Admin herself/itself. Are we to say she is a Putin Puppet?

Tucker on the other hand in his rambling monologue uses all sorts of tools, particularly rhetorical questions, to lead his viewers to a conclusions without explicitly making all the claims he’s implying. He also spends the majority of the time talking about “secret labs” only in the last minute to talk about how these labs were some Obama program… thus refuting his own statements that these labs are secrets. It is my belief he’s promoting this propaganda because it’s a convenient way to carry on his criticism of the whole handling of COVID-19 and riling people up about Fauci, etc. It’s disgusting enough to disseminate such unproven and unlikely information, let alone doing to to support other otherwise unrelated political narratives.

And yes, no one is locking up Gabbard, but there have been some very disturbing calls from highly influential individuals for things like arrest, censorship, etc.

I believe the solution to bad information is fighting it with the truth. There’s plenty of crackpot, false, and unproven ideas posted in the media regularly. You could presumably censor such information, but you can’t prevent it from spreading. And when it comes to conspiracy theories suppressing information only bolsters the legitimacy of such ideas.
She literally went on Tucker Carlson’s show to talk about this. So your negative statements apply to both of them.

And did you even read about these supposedly dangerous labs? Nope. Just parroting Tulsi’s Russian propaganda. Look up The NY Times fact check of this and enlighten yourself.

And since nobody is locking up Gabbard, and it’s just private citizens saying they thinks this or that, you have ZERO basis for comparing it to what is happening in Russia. It is extremely disrespectful to Russian dissidents who were killed or are sitting in jail to even put Gabbard in the same discussion. Quite offensive if you ask me.

”The answer to speech is more speech!” Except when that speech is negative about Ms. Gabbard, apparently. In that case, such speech is evil censorship, just like in Russia.

Trump, in the White House, used his government position to call the Press the ”enemy of the people” and you never made a peep about the evils of censorship. I haven’t seen you criticizing the ”don’t say gay” bills or book bans. But some civilians criticize Gabbard, and now we are in Russia. It’s truly an absurd, unsupportable stance. Which you are entitled to have, and which I am entitled to criticize, since we are NOT in Russia.

PS - mods - I apologize for going off-track, but I felt I had to reply to this initial post which was a tangent. Can this sidebar be moved into the existing “tangent” thread for Ukraine please?
 
You mind expanding on this? It’s vague and sounds like something Tucker or Trump would say.

Like most things these days, somebody with 12 followers on Twitter said it which then got picked up and amplified by the media and suddenly it's seen as a government-sanctioned operation.

And that happens on both sides.
 
You mind expanding on this? It’s vague and sounds like something Tucker or Trump would say.

Sure. Adam Kinzinger called her traitorous, Mitt Romney called her treasonous, which implies the legal charge of treason. Whoopie Goldberg (and other view hosts) called for her to be investigated and said “they used to arrest people for stuff like this… if they (the govt) thought you were colluding… …and now there seems to be no bar…”. Joy Reid had a guest who claims Tulsi and Tucker are “collaborating with Russia” and “assets”, collaboration typically implies working with someone to create something (though I think he did correctly identify Tucker Carlson probably is saying this crap because it promotes the Trump fanatics agenda and talking points). Keith Olbermann tweeted this about the two:
They are Russian Assets and there is a war. There's a case for detaining them militarily. Trials are a sign of good faith and patience on the part of democracy.

Yes, all those aforementioned people with 12 followers.

I guess McCarthyism is back?

It’s actually amazing I’ve seen a number of articles completely misrepresent what Gabbard said. She never used the word or implied bioweapons. Despite what a number articles falsely state, the US does fund a number of biolabs conducting research on deadly pathogens in Ukraine and many, many other countries around the world. Her main point is these Ukrainian labs are not secure and that they should be shut down (along with the silly claim that all labs need to be shutdown worldwide- which is a fairly common opinion among various cohorts).

It’s almost like people don’t read/listen to what people actually say. And maybe most people can’t be bothered to look at the primary source.

Having concerns biohazards be inadvertently released into the environment because these labs are in a war zone should not be a controversial opinion. Especially when the Biden admin voiced these same concerns.

Anyways, I don’t want to turn this thread into a debate about peoples rights to voice their bad ideas.
 
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Anyways, I don’t want to turn this thread into a debate about peoples rights to voice their bad ideas.
Maybe we can move these posts to another thread. I refuse to accept the critiques of Gabbard as anywhere near comparable to Russian state censorship. That is plainly offensive to any Russians killed or held in prison for speaking up. They have a law with a 15-year prison sentence now for calling the war a war.

And you never once felt the need to weigh in on the actual state censorship being passed by legislatures across America (targeting black, gay, and transgender people BTW)… but stern critiques of poor little Tulsi? Now that’s the same as throwing her in a Russian gulag!
 
Here's the thing about Ukraine's "Nazi problem", which I'm seeing brought up by right-wing Putin sympathizers:

There is a paramilitary group in eastern Ukraine called the Azov Battalion which is neo-Nazi and is definitely worthy of condemnation. Here is an article about them:


According to a Ukrainian friend of mine, in terms of mainstream political parties, the closest to neo-Nazis are Svoboda, and they didn't even gain enough votes for parliamentary representation apparently.

That being said, Russia is one to talk since they also have a Nazi problem. Just see the marches of "Russia for Russians", Vladimir Zhirinovsky, and neo-Nazi gangs. These groups openly attacked LGBT people, Jewish people and immigrants from the Caucasus and Central Asia.
 
On the radio today, a Russian American in a Russian Democracy group based in the US is happy that Europe and the US is noticing Russian crimes in Ukraine, the invasion, but commented that the world could of cared less when Russia was murdering citizens in support of Assad in Syria. :unsure:
 
Boohoo for this Russian billionaire who doesn’t know how to live on 3300 pounds a month. He didn’t do anything wrong, he swears!

 
Here's the thing about Ukraine's "Nazi problem", which I'm seeing brought up by right-wing Putin sympathizers:

There is a paramilitary group in eastern Ukraine called the Azov Battalion which is neo-Nazi and is definitely worthy of condemnation. Here is an article about them:


According to a Ukrainian friend of mine, in terms of mainstream political parties, the closest to neo-Nazis are Svoboda, and they didn't even gain enough votes for parliamentary representation apparently.

That being said, Russia is one to talk since they also have a Nazi problem. Just see the marches of "Russia for Russians", Vladimir Zhirinovsky, and neo-Nazi gangs. These groups openly attacked LGBT people, Jewish people and immigrants from the Caucasus and Central Asia.

Ukraine certainly has a Nazi problem, so bad they elected a Jewish president. Ukraine actually has one of the higher proportions of Jewish people for a country- somewhere between 0.5 and 1% of the population.

But yes, if we want to talk about Nazism, which is in part synonymous with anti-semitism, let’s look at Russian History. Ukraine had an quite a large Jewish population around the turn of the 20th century.

Due to the programs of the Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War and the anti-Semitic pro-Soviet leadership leading up to that, many tens of thousands of Jews were killed and hundreds of thousands from Ukraine, Poland, etc fled the Soviet Union as their countries became part of it.

Then of course the Nazis invaded and murdered a million Jews and many others fled after the war. Not long after WWII 70% of the Jewish population was dead or had exiled themselves.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, the majority of the remaining Jews left Ukraine, especially considering state sponsored antisemitism didn’t leave immediately with the Soviet Union.

The 2014 invasion of Crimea further encouraged Jews to leave. And thanks to Putin, reportedly now hundreds of thousands of Jews have been forced to flee once again.

Let alone the similarities of Hitler and Putin in terms of starting horrific wars for their own egotistic ambitions and having little to no regard for human life, the reality is every time the Soviets (which I’d argue includes Putin given his desire to rebuild the block) gets involved things don’t go well for the Jewish population.

The reality is there are literally neo-Nazis and anti-semites all over the world. They’re here in the US, they’re in Canada, all across Europe. In fact, I think there was just a neo-nazi parade in Hungary— I guess they’re next on Russia’s chopping block. Not that these people can’t be dangerous, but they’re such a small faction of society they have very little power to execute any political influence.

I really have to wonder what the general public in Russia is thinking. Obviously younger people have much more access to information than the older generations. But surely in the back of many of the more brainwashed people they must have some recognition things don’t add up. A Neo-Nazi regime with a Jewish President? Almost the entire would sanctioning them, including Switzerland, the country known for their lack of foreign interventions.

I think one of the more brilliant moves by Ukraine in terms of psyops was to directly address the mothers of Russian soldiers and setup the hotline for them to call to inquire about the status of their sons. When you rile up the emotions of parents have for their children, no amount Russian propaganda is going to convince them otherwise.
 
More about the Russian bio lab propaganda, starring Tucker Carlson!

 
:cautious:
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1509747520699777025/

The Peace Corps explained that people of color who want to volunteer in helping Ukrainian refugees may face blatant racism.

On their website, under a possible consideration for volunteers of color it states:

“It is not uncommon for Ukrainians to refer to African-Americans as “[N-Word]”. Volunteers of color may be called ‘a monkey’ or may see children’s games with Blackface.”
Lovely.

Peace Corp continued on by explaining reasons why Ukrainian refugees might call you a monkey if you are a person of color.

“Being aware of the history of dehumanization for people of African descent may help inform where this comes from; it does not justify it. It will be at your discretion to determine the intent. No matter the intent, staff recognizes the impact that hearing that word may invoke hurt and anger. If you view it as unlearned [something the person has never been exposed to], it may be an opportunity for you to educate that person.”

This isn’t surprising at all, especially after seeing how black people who were trying to leave Ukraine were mistreated by others. You can check out the Peace Corp Ukrainian Refugees Volunteer website here.

Would you still help out?

Possible Considerations for Volunteers of Color​

Because of limited exposure, some Ukrainians will expect all Americans to be white and are unaware of diversity in the U.S. For Volunteers, the range of responses to their skin color may vary greatly. Some Volunteers may be mistaken for a host country national, be questioned about their U.S. citizenship, face behavior and language skill expectations. Peace Corps aspires to support each Volunteer in navigating these challenges in a way that works for them. Depending on the situation, Volunteers may choose to respond in a variety of ways. Sometimes they may remove themselves from the situation. Sometimes they may seek support from fellow Volunteers and/or Peace Corps staff. Sometimes they may practice a particular coping strategy or self-care strategy. Sometimes they may explore if they can turn the situation into teachable moments for themselves and the host country national. All Volunteers should be mindful of histories of race and ethnicity that are present in U.S. culture and within your country of service and should be mindful of being an ally to your fellow Volunteers.

Racial and ethnic minorities in Ukraine, primarily Poles, Hungarians, Crimean Tatars, and Greeks, make up about 5 percent of the total population. Most Ukrainians have not had personal interactions with people of other races. They often assume that African-American or Asian-American Volunteers are university students from Africa or Asia rather than Americans. Thus, these Volunteers may be stopped to show their identification papers more frequently than other Volunteers, particularly in larger cities where they are not known. On its website, the U.S. State Department now warns prospective travelers to Ukraine of hate crimes directed at ethnic minorities. In addition, a number of international human rights groups have expressed concern with the rise in hate crimes and xenophobic activity in big cities in Ukraine.

One Volunteer writes: A majority of the time, people view me with curiosity. Most people I work with love to ask me about my ancestry. They and are polite and respectful. Occasionally, I am mistaken for an Arab or African refugee and I hear some people shouting. Most Ukrainians are embarrassed by this behavior and I have never felt scared for my physical safety. Sharing information about my cultural background as an American of Indian descent has been a wonderful and positive experience for me in the nine months I have lived in Ukraine.

Possible Considerations for African American or Black Volunteers​

Volunteer Voices: “'People of color' face many challenges living in Ukraine, as a Peace Corps Volunteer. However, African-Americans will confront far more complicated issues. For modern parts of Ukraine, African-Americans are part of the community and day-to-day life. However, there are many Ukrainians who have never seen a Black person before. Their understanding of African-American culture is fueled by the media and African stereotypes. You will generate lots of interest and curious stares.

So, these stares can make you uncomfortable and annoyed. Ukrainians' initial perception of you may be that you are from Africa; it may not. It does help if they understand that you are an American, and the training in PST will help you consider ways that you will engage with these assumptions."

"It is not uncommon for Ukrainians to refer to African-Americans as “[N-Word]”. Volunteers of color may be called 'a monkey' or may see children’s games with Blackface. Being aware of the history of dehumanization for people of African descent may help inform where this comes from; it does not justify it. It will be at your discretion to determine the intent. No matter the intent, staff recognizes the impact that hearing that word may invoke hurt and anger. If you view it as unlearned [something the person has never been exposed to], it may be an opportunity for you to educate that person. We are here to support your successful service, and these comments and images can be a huge distraction and obstacle to you. Know that Peace Corps staff is here to support and encourage you. Do not hesitate to remove yourself from such situations. You are not expected to be subjected to such treatment. You can also find support and understand from other African-American Peace Corps Volunteers serving in Ukraine."


Any volunteer or staff member who has experienced racism can contact any Peace Corps Ukraine staff member. This can include the Program Managers, Safety and Security Manager, Director of Management and Operations, Director of Programs and Training, or Country Director.

Possible Considerations for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Ally/Asexual (LGBTQA) Volunteers​

The Peace Corps actively supports Volunteers and staff of all gender and sexual orientation. Peace Corps encourages Volunteers to serve as allies to their fellow Volunteers in all aspects. Many countries where the Peace Corps serves have more restrictive cultures with regard to sexual orientation and non-conforming gender identities, though some are more permissive. Peace Corps staff will work with Volunteers to provide them with locally informed perspectives. Some LGBTQA Volunteers have chosen to come out to community members while some have come out only to select Peace Corps staff and Volunteers. Many have chosen to be discreet about their orientation and/or gender identity within their host community. LGBTQA support groups may be available in-country, providing a network to support the needs of the Peace Corps LGBTQA community. More information about serving as an LGBTQA Volunteer is available at the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Peace Corps Alumni website at lgbrpcv.org.

While sex acts are not criminalized, the Ukrainian LGBT community faces discrimination and civil rights abuses related to sexual orientation. Ukrainian society generally views being gay, lesbian, or bisexual as abnormal. While networks of gays and lesbians have formed in some of the larger cities, LGBTQ life is hidden from the public and kept very discreet. Some LGBTQ Volunteers in Ukraine have found that being open about their sexual orientation at their sites has had a negative impact on their effectiveness. Peace Corps Ukraine staff is there to support LGBT Volunteers with any issues they may face.

Volunteer Voices: “Transgender volunteers are recommended to not disclose their gender identity to host country nationals and INFORM ONLY the Country Director and Peace Corps Medical Officer among Peace Corps staff. For those who are already medically transitioning, the Peace Corps medical team is very willing to assist and will continue your hormone replacement therapy. For transgender individuals who have been on their journey for long enough to feel comfortable passing, it CAN BE easy to blend into the culture.

At the same time, I am leery of saying blend into the culture because I don’t think many PCVs blend into the culture, maybe we blend in as a typical American?

Some gender non-conforming Volunteers on the transgender spectrum OR TRANSGENDER VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE EARLY IN THEIR JOURNEY may face similar issues to gay and lesbian volunteers as well as Volunteers of color due to the fact that for most Ukrainians, this is their first experience with someone with this identity."
 
"Because of limited exposure, some Ukrainians will expect all Americans to be white and are unaware of diversity in the U.S. For Volunteers, the range of responses to their skin color may vary greatly."

Limited exposure my ass. Just call it for what it really is. :cautious:
 
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