Russia-Ukraine

[yaxomoxay]

BREAKING (Borowitz): Putin says he deserves Ukraine as consolation for losing the White House.

I say give him Mar-a-Lago and call it even Steven.

Ok I LOL’d at this one. Well played.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella.

Are you willing to send 100,000 Americans and 100,000 Europeans to die for Ukraine?

People don’t realize that this is the meaning of being in NATO. It means that once the party is attacked, the other countries will defend at all costs. And this means hundreds of thousands of deaths and the risk of escalation to global war.

I certainly understand the “deterrence” argument (which is indeed true) but deterrence works only as long as the answer to my questions above is a clear, definite “yes”. Considering how the Americans and Europeans acted, I am not sure they’d be willing to send troops to die in Ukraine, possibly in a long war, making the threat - and the treaty itself - moot.

 

[lizkat]

Are you willing to send 100,000 Americans and 100,000 Europeans to die for Ukraine?

People don’t realize that this is the meaning of being in NATO. It means that once the party is attacked, the other countries will defend at all costs. And this means hundreds of thousands of deaths and the risk of escalation to global war.

I certainly understand the “deterrence” argument (which is indeed true) but deterrence works only as long as the answer to my questions above is a clear, definite “yes”. Considering how the Americans and Europeans acted, I am not sure they’d be willing to send troops to die in Ukraine, possibly in a long war, making the threat - and the treaty itself - moot.

Ukraine landing in NATO any time soon is not going to happen. It really is too provocative for the times we live in right now. But NATO defense of a west-leaning neighbor is far more likely, no matter the form it may take as officially described to the general public.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Ukraine landing in NATO any time soon is not going to happen. It really is too provocative for the times we live in right now. But NATO defense of a west-leaning neighbor is far more likely, no matter the form it may take as officially described to the general public.

I totally agree with this assessment.

 

[Eric]

Are you willing to send 100,000 Americans and 100,000 Europeans to die for Ukraine?

People don’t realize that this is the meaning of being in NATO. It means that once the party is attacked, the other countries will defend at all costs. And this means hundreds of thousands of deaths and the risk of escalation to global war.

I certainly understand the “deterrence” argument (which is indeed true) but deterrence works only as long as the answer to my questions above is a clear, definite “yes”. Considering how the Americans and Europeans acted, I am not sure they’d be willing to send troops to die in Ukraine, possibly in a long war, making the threat - and the treaty itself - moot.

Let's see if/where it stops, I think there's some careful calculations that had to be made here. On one hand he invades and annexes Ukraine, we all sit back and let it happen (and by all appearances this will be the case) and on the other he continues to expand to other sovereign nations and we're behind the 8 ball. In some ways Putin has Hitler-like ambitions and it should be of concern to us all.

 

[DT]

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea:

"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius,'" Trump recalled. "Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine -- Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful."

"I said, 'How smart is that?'" the former U.S. president continued. "And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s the strongest peace force… We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy."

Trump added: "But here’s a guy that says, you know, 'I’m gonna declare a big portion of Ukraine independent,' he used the word 'independent' and 'we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna go in and we’re gonna help keep peace.' You gotta say that’s pretty savvy. And you know what the response was from Biden? There was no response. They didn’t have one for that. No, it’s very sad. Very sad."

Trump praises Putin's 'genius' plan to invade Ukraine: 'You gotta say that’s pretty savvy'

Former President Donald Trump on Tuesday called Vladimir Putin a "genius" after the Russian president made moves to take over parts of Ukraine.Trump made the remarks during an interview with conservative podcaster Buck Sexton."I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said...

www.rawstory.com

 

[Eric]

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea:

Trump praises Putin's 'genius' plan to invade Ukraine: 'You gotta say that’s pretty savvy'

Former President Donald Trump on Tuesday called Vladimir Putin a "genius" after the Russian president made moves to take over parts of Ukraine.Trump made the remarks during an interview with conservative podcaster Buck Sexton."I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said...

www.rawstory.com

As I stated before, at the very least Trump would've never agreed to sanctions, at worst he would've aided Russia.

 

[lizkat]

Let's see if/where it stops, I think there's some careful calculations that had to be made here. On one hand he invades and annexes Ukraine, we all sit back and let it happen (and by all appearances this will be the case) and on the other he continues to expand to other sovereign nations and we're behind the 8 ball. In some ways Putin has Hitler-like ambitions and it should be of concern to us all.

Putin's explanation will be that Ukrainians (from the west) invaded "his" expanded Russia, if he ventures past the eastern provinces or attacks Kyiv.

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea

Now there's a surprise, eh? The romance continues. I say drop the two of them off in Vilnius and let the locals deal with them, keeping in mind there is not now and never will be a love fest between the denizens of Lithuania and the former USSR...

 

[MEJHarrison]

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea:

Damn, it's been so long that I've read something from him, that I almost lost the ability to follow his "train of thought". As soon as you stop exercising those muscles, you go downhill quick. It took a couple times, but I think I've finally grasped it.

 

[Thomas Veil]

What does it take to be admitted into NATO? (answered below) Does Ukraine qualify?
Get’m joined up…a big chunk of land.

Bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella.

From the link you provided, Huntn, it appears the answer to "What does it take to join NATO?" is "It depends." Granted, an extreme situation like this one provides impetus to the idea, but the other factors--military readiness, stable government, etc.--are why it's usually a slow process. That, and the bureaucracy of a system that won't meet again until November.

I honestly don't know if it's too late now for Ukraine membership. If NATO was going to do it, they may have missed the window. What if they finally grant that membership about the same time Putin's tanks are rolling up to Ukraine's western border?

Ukraine's alignment has been the reddest of all of Putin's red lines though, in the sense of eastern European nations leaning west, or "breakaway" pieces of Russia proper or the former USSR agitating for independence after the initial dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine to Russia is the equivalent of Cuba to the USA, in the sense that we were waaaaay more than just uncomfortable with the idea of Russian missiles 90 miles off our coast back in the 60s. Putin's nightmare is the idea that NATO weaponry (US weaponry) could someday end up sitting on an actual land border of Russia.

I don't know what Putin is thinking here. What if he does succeed in taking the entire country? Does he honestly think that once he's that close to Europe, NATO won't place missiles in Poland, Lithuania and other vulnerable countries?

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea:

Trump praises Putin's 'genius' plan to invade Ukraine: 'You gotta say that’s pretty savvy'

Former President Donald Trump on Tuesday called Vladimir Putin a "genius" after the Russian president made moves to take over parts of Ukraine.Trump made the remarks during an interview with conservative podcaster Buck Sexton."I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said...

www.rawstory.com

Dear God. Thank god he's not president anymore. He'd be trying to find a way to make this Hunter Biden's fault.

 

[Huntn]

Ukraine crisis: US announces sanctions against Russia and moves hundreds of troops to protect NATO allies

Mr Biden told reporters that Russian troops being ordered to eastern Ukraine after Vladimir Putin recognised the independence of two separatist regions marked the "beginning of an invasion".

news.sky.com

Joe Biden has announced the first wave of US sanctions against Russia in response to Moscow's actions in Ukraine.

The president said Russian troop deployments in eastern Ukraine marked the "beginning of an invasion".

He warned Moscow that it would "pay an even steeper price if it continues its aggression".
Mr Biden said Russian leader Vladimir Putin was "setting up a rationale to take more territory by force".

"I'm going to begin to impose sanctions in response, far beyond the steps we and our allies and partners implemented in
2014."

The latest sanctions target Russian bank VEB and its military bank, and sovereign debt.

"We have cut off Russia's government from Western financing. It can no longer raise money from the West," he told reporters at the White House

 

[Huntn]

Well, the Orange Fuckwit thinks it's an outstanding idea:

Trump praises Putin's 'genius' plan to invade Ukraine: 'You gotta say that’s pretty savvy'

Former President Donald Trump on Tuesday called Vladimir Putin a "genius" after the Russian president made moves to take over parts of Ukraine.Trump made the remarks during an interview with conservative podcaster Buck Sexton."I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said...

www.rawstory.com

He doesn’t even hide it, the shit needs to be behind bars awaiting trial. Now think about the state of NATO if this Mother Fucker was still in charge of the US military. We’d probably have left or been kicked out of NATO by now.

I wonder what the Faux-patriots are saying?

 

[Huntn]

From the link you provided, Huntn, it appears the answer to "What does it take to join NATO?" is "It depends." Granted, an extreme situation like this one provides impetus to the idea, but the other factors--military readiness, stable government, etc.--are why it's usually a slow process. That, and the bureaucracy of a system that won't meet again until November.

I honestly don't know if it's too late now for Ukraine membership. If NATO was going to do it, they may have missed the window. What if they finally grant that membership about the same time Putin's tanks are rolling up to Ukraine's western border?



I don't know what Putin is thinking here. What if he does succeed in taking the entire country? Does he honestly think that once he's that close to Europe, NATO won't place missiles in Poland, Lithuania and other vulnerable countries?



Dear God. Thank god he's not president anymore. He'd be trying to find a way to make this Hunter Biden's fault.

If the current target is the “quote breakaway provinces”, it would be doable if NATO is ready to move it’s forces into Western Ukraine and accept the possibility with a shooting war. As I’ve said before as this is Europe‘s back yard, I’d defer to Europe continental NATO members to decide at what point do they want to stop Creep’n Putin.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Ukraine landing in NATO any time soon is not going to happen. It really is too provocative for the times we live in right now. But NATO defense of a west-leaning neighbor is far more likely, no matter the form it may take as officially described to the general public.

Exactly.

And, @Huntn, add to that the fact that Ukraine's borders/boundaries/frontiers are now contested (and have been since 2014) - NATO will not accept applications for membership from countries with contested or disputed bondaries (it cannot, because contested boundaries, or borders, may lead to civil conflict or civil war) - means that this will not happen - it cannot happen - at any time in the near future.

However, if the permanent division of Ukraine - into two Ukraines - occurs as a result of this, - then, an application from the west of the country could be viewed benignly, although Russia would vehemently resist such an outcome.

Putin's explanation will be that Ukrainians (from the west) invaded "his" expanded Russia, if he ventures past the eastern provinces or attacks Kyiv.

Yes, that - again, this is almost painfully predictable.

And the fact that the media is now well muzzled (again) in Russia (destroying one of the genuinely positive effects of the glasnost and perestroika reforms of the 1980s and early to mid 1990s, which had left Russia with an excellent, thoughtful, and well-informed media) means that this nonsense will not be challenged in any way in the public sphere or public space.

Now there's a surprise, eh? The romance continues. I say drop the two of them off in Vilnius and let the locals deal with them, keeping in mind there is not now and never will be a love fest between the denizens of Lithuania and the former USSR...

View attachment 11864

This is so, so, true.

In the early 1990s, I spent a term - just over four months - in the Baltic states - mainly in Vilnius, Lithuania, as my hosts were Vilnius University, on an EU funded travelling fellowship.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

He doesn’t even hide it, the shit needs to be behind bars awaiting trial. Now think about the state of NATO if this Mother Fucker was still in charge of the US military. We’d probably have left or been kicked out of NATO by now.

I wonder what the Faux-patriots are saying?

Let's not forget he can and probably will run again in 2024. Great news for Putin.

As far as Trump patriots, this was listed as another possible reason Putin decided to act now. Under Trump there's a sizable percentage of the population that is fine with this type thing. Putin is just a strong leader doing what is best for his country. That's pretty much the pass every authoritarian leader is given by those who worship that system.

 

[Huntn]

Let's not forget he can and probably will run again in 2024. Great news for Putin.

As far as Trump patriots, this was listed as another possible reason Putin decided to act now. Under Trump there's a sizable percentage of the population that is fine with this type thing. Putin is just a strong leader doing what is best for his country. That's pretty much the pass every authoritarian leader is given by those who worship that system.

I continue to hope that the miscreant will be in too much legal jeopardy to run again. Trump’s ”number one cowboy” is being turned on, by the GOP establishment In Texas. Hopefully his days and Shit Head’s are numbered.

Texas GOP revolts against Trump’s favorite cowboy

Once a top Trump choice to head the USDA, Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller is facing turbulence in the March 1 primary.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I continue to hope that the miscreant will be in too much legal jeopardy to run again. Trump’s ”number one cowboy” is being turned on, by the GOP establishment In Texas. Hopefully his days and Shit Head’s are numbered.

Texas GOP revolts against Trump’s favorite cowboy

Once a top Trump choice to head the USDA, Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller is facing turbulence in the March 1 primary.

www.yahoo.com

At this point Trump is running against himself and there's a good chance that will be the cause of him losing. Otherwise we're all going to be sitting in reeducation camps passing secret "But Manchin and Sinima" letters.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

At this point Trump is running against himself and there's a good chance that will be the cause of him losing. Otherwise we're all going to be sitting in reeducation camps passing secret "But Manchin and Sinima" letters.

Well, even in the United states, I cannot see anyone (not even Mr Trump) successfuly campaigning on the slogan "Putin is a genius".

 

[Thomas Veil]

Ukraine crisis: US announces sanctions against Russia and moves hundreds of troops to protect NATO allies

Mr Biden told reporters that Russian troops being ordered to eastern Ukraine after Vladimir Putin recognised the independence of two separatist regions marked the "beginning of an invasion".

news.sky.com

Joe Biden has announced the first wave of US sanctions against Russia in response to Moscow's actions in Ukraine.

The president said Russian troop deployments in eastern Ukraine marked the "beginning of an invasion".

He warned Moscow that it would "pay an even steeper price if it continues its aggression".
Mr Biden said Russian leader Vladimir Putin was "setting up a rationale to take more territory by force".

"I'm going to begin to impose sanctions in response, far beyond the steps we and our allies and partners implemented in
2014."

The latest sanctions target Russian bank VEB and its military bank, and sovereign debt.

"We have cut off Russia's government from Western financing. It can no longer raise money from the West," he told reporters at the White House

By the way, I thought (except for his proclivity for hesitating/stuttering), Biden did fine today. Stern but not angry. All business.

I wondered what sanctions the West was still holding in abeyance, and found this:

What other sanctions could Russia face?​

Western nations have threatened Russia with harsh sanctions if it invades Ukraine.​

​

Excluding Russia from Swift​

One measure would be to exclude Russia from the global financial messaging service Swift, which is used by thousands of financial institutions worldwide. ​

This would make it very hard for Russian banks to do business overseas. ​

However, this would have an economic cost for countries like the US and Germany, whose banks have close links with Russia. ​

​

The White House says it is unlikely to be unleashed as an immediate response to an invasion.​

​

Banning Russia from using the US dollar​

The US could ban Russia from financial transactions involving US dollars. Any Western firm that allowed a Russian institution to deal in dollars would face penalties. ​

This could have a huge impact on Russia's economy as most of its oil and gas sales are settled in dollars. It could cripple Russia's foreign trade in other sectors. ​

However, it would mean Russia's oil and gas exports would slump, and that would affect European countries which are dependent on Russian gas.​

​

Block the banks​

The US could blacklist Russian banks, making it almost impossible for it to conduct international transactions.​

Moscow would have to bail out the banks and do what it could to avoid inflation rising and incomes falling. ​

However, this would hurt western investors with money in those banks. ​

Besides, Russia has reserves of over $630bn (£464bn) in its central bank to guard against such economic shocks.​

​

Blocking the export of hi-tech to Russia​

The West could restrict the export of key hi-tech commodities to Russia. ​

The US, for example, could stop companies selling goods such as semiconductor microchips. These are used in everything from cars to smart phones. ​

This would affect not just Russia's defence and aerospace sectors, but whole swathes of its economy.​

However, it could hurt the business of companies which export the technology. ​

​

Energy restrictions​

Russia's economy is hugely dependent on selling gas and oil overseas and Western nations could refuse to buy oil and gas from the big Russian energy giants such as Gazprom or Rosneft. ​

Again, however, this could bring higher gas prices and fuel shortages to Europe. Germany, for example, relies on Russia for one-third of its gas supplies.​

​

Limiting Russian access to London's financial institutions ​

Such is the scale of Russian money in banks and property in the UK that the capital has been dubbed "Londongrad". ​

The UK government claims it is tackling this problem with "unexplained wealth orders", which require people to say where their cash has come from. ​

But only a handful of these orders have ever been used.​

​

What are the sanctions on Russia and have they affected its economy?

Over the past two years, Western nations have imposed sanctions on Russia for invading Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

There are also other possibilities such as travel bans.

 

[NT1440]

It seems that Biden accepted a summit with Putin. Very dangerous diplomatic move, but probably one that has to be done in hope of stopping the conflict, so
I must commend Biden for trying this even if it could potentially make things worse.

How in the world could sitting down between two leaders make things worse?

Given all the alternatives screeching from the media like preemptive sanctions (a financial act of war), what possible harm could come from talks? Talks are how conflicts ease, period.

He doesn’t even hide it, the shit needs to be behind bars awaiting trial. Now think about the state of NATO if this Mother Fucker was still in charge of the US military. We’d probably have left or been kicked out of NATO by now.

I wonder what the Faux-patriots are saying?

Putting Trump aside (given he belongs in The Hague alongside every modern US president)….

NATO’s expansion, ever marching missile defense systems towards Russia’s borders (hence destroying any security assurances Russia has) is THE driver of the situation we’re in today.

This all stems from the coup of 2014, and it’s MADDENING to see that nobody remembers how that happened. We were caught red handed and yet again the US and it’s vassal states pretend it never happened.

I’m at the point of giving up hope that anyone has the wherewithal to counter 8 years of lies and propaganda. Victoria Nuland is back at it again and even the “liberals” are once again supporting the neoconservative policies that haven’t been altered at all since Bush II.

“Not one inch” my fucking ass.