Russia-Ukraine

Where do “people” get the idea of the return of the USSR? I’d say straight from the horse’s mouth:


I also don’t believe the idea that all world leaders are ”just as evil” as each other. That makes no sense; they are all different.

As for Rumsfeld and Cheney, they were horrible. I don’t believe they are still pulling the strings though (especially Rumsfeld)…
The fall of the USSR created the first Unipolar world in modern history. With no great power to keep it in check the US more or less calls the shots.

It’s a geopolitical analysis being treated like a mission statement.


Regarding the neocons. Victoria Nuland is now in charge of the Ukraine situation. She’s the wife of Robert Kagan. She was the National Security Advisor to Duck Cheney. Do some digging there if you’re interested. Power isn’t individuals, it’s the networks they are part of. Take a look at where all the key members of PNAC and their staffs have gone since 2000. You’ll find these people still hold huge influence peddling positions in just about every field related to military think tanks, MIC corporations and their PR firms, and organizations like the Federalist Society and the Council on Foreign Affairs.
 
…ConsortiumNews is the longest running independent online news source in the country. Robert Perry made a career of exposing the lies of the powerful (Iran Contra) and he didn’t back down until the day he died. Chris Hedges, John Pilger, John Karaoku, etc. sit on the board of directors. The site has won numerous investigative awards. The site has a 20+ year track record and has always spoken truth to power regardless of which “team” has been in the White House.
The guy whose article you linked to has been dead for years, and they still push out his posts like it's some kind of Weekend at Bernie's. The thing with the dead is that they can't complain that their words are taken out of context. Perhaps Perry would have edited his article or wrote an addendum, considering that Russia has indeed ended up invading Ukraine, after the Ukrainians eventually democratically chose their own path away from Russia.
 
Yeah, sure. I just expect a modicum of good faith, but apparently you genuinely believe in your conspiracy theories, so I guess that counts as good faith?

If I may, it would do you some good to travel for a bit and see how bad things are for people who really have it bad. It made me put things in context and taught me to appreciate how fucking lucky I am, and you seriously need some of that.
How is me not living in genuine poverty and being lucky for it an excuse for millions dying in my own lifetime from no healthcare? I understand the privilege of living in the belly of the Empire…how does that negate it being an empire?

I rebuild homes all over the east coast and south after disasters. I’ve seen abject poverty. I understand that I live comfortably in comparison. Instead of saying “thank god I’m comfortable” (though a couple thousand dollar medical bill would ruin me, so I’m not we’ll off by any means), I’m just more outraged that things have to be this way in the first place. Hence my anti-capitalism worldview.
 
The fall of the USSR created the first Unipolar world in modern history. With no great power to keep it in check the US more or less calls the shots.
First, this reads as if you think the Cold War was preferable to the current status quo.

On the second, aren’t you forgetting about China?
 
First, this reads as if you think the Cold War was preferable to the current status quo.

On the second, aren’t you forgetting about China?
No, I think the Cold War was completely unnecessary from the very get go.

A unipolar world is dangerous. A multipolar world at least provides *some* checks and balances. That’s a very broad statement I know, but I’ve already spent way too much time on here tonight.

Thank you, Matt, for at least engaging with me in an actual dialogue. I know my views aren’t popular to most, but I have very specific reasons and years of reading/studying that go into them. Thanks for lending me the space to elaborate in good faith on them.
 
^My views are becoming more like yours as I get older (contradicting the popular maxim that one gets more conservative as they age). I'm not quite there on being anti-capitalist (I guess I still think one can work within the capitalist system to solve problems) but my foreign policy views are similar to yours. So I enjoy hearing this perspective. (I also hear it from podcasts like Chapo and Citations Needed).
 
^My views are becoming more like yours as I get older (contradicting the popular maxim that one gets more conservative as they age). I'm not quite there on being anti-capitalist (I guess I still think one can work within the capitalist system to solve problems) but my foreign policy views are similar to yours. So I enjoy hearing this perspective. (I also hear it from podcasts like Chapo and Citations Needed).
Citations Needed is great for cutting through media tropes/narratives.
 
How is me not living in genuine poverty and being lucky for it an excuse for millions dying in my own lifetime from no healthcare? I understand the privilege of living in the belly of the Empire…how does that negate it being an empire?
Yet your ideas of universal healthcare are more than misguided. I'm still baffled by your statement about the "dismantled US hospital capacities" as a major factor in high COVID mortality. We don't need more hospitals, we need a healthier population. That is mainly achieved by a combination of good public health policy (things people are taking a dump on), and by universal and affordable access to primary care and NOT *building more sick care capacity.

*(before someone interprets the statement as people should not have universal access to sick case)

This extrapolates to systems. You can be sure that those trapped behind the Iron Curtain were happy for the Soviet Union to fall. This fact will not be changed by the misgivings of the US Military-Industrial Complex.

I agree about multipolar global powers potentially provide better balance. However, your equation ignores the nuclear arsenal. Multilaterality provides more reasons to make and keep nukes, and perhaps one time, even use them. Putin directly threatened the world with a nuclear war here.
Do you realise that if Ukraine joins NATO and decides to take Crimea back through military means, the European countries will automatically get drawn into a military conflict with Russia? Of course, NATO’s united potential and that of Russia are incomparable. We understand that, but we also understand that Russia is one of the world’s leading nuclear powers, and is superior to many of those countries in terms of the number of modern nuclear force components. But there will be no winners, and you will find yourself drawn into this conflict against your will. You will be fulfilling Paragraph 5 of the Treaty of Rome in a heartbeat, even before you know it.
From Kremlin.ru, so nobody accuses me of consuming western propaganda.

So on one end, I appreciate the humanistic ideals you hold and share some of your criticisms, but on the other hand, the USA not measuring up to those doesn't mean Putin isn't the #1 threat to world peace right now.
 
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Good opinion piece by always smart and interesting Mrs. Madeline Albright on today’s New York Times.

I think her view about Russia’s isolation is too optimistic (as in I am sure that Mr Putin took what she said in consideration), but overall I agree with her.
 
No, I think the Cold War was completely unnecessary from the very get go.

A unipolar world is dangerous. A multipolar world at least provides *some* checks and balances. That’s a very broad statement I know, but I’ve already spent way too much time on here tonight.

Thank you, Matt, for at least engaging with me in an actual dialogue. I know my views aren’t popular to most, but I have very specific reasons and years of reading/studying that go into them. Thanks for lending me the space to elaborate in good faith on them.
I’m not sure what you are saying and who you are blaming when you say the Cold War was completely unnecessary. Maybe you should clarify this.

My impression is that emerging from WWII, European Allies with an unlikely, temporary ally, enemy of my enemy, the USSR, the Cold War was inevitable due to a regime that was built on it’s distrust, intolerance, and expansionist designs, and no I’m not talking about the USA. ;)

Historically Russia is interesting because they had a non aggression pact with Germany and if Hitler had not been a megalomaniac who decided he was unstoppable and turned on Russia, WWII would have unfolded differently.

Post WWII, the US did feel compelled to counter Communism, but to say we should not have done that (if that is what you are saying) comes from the benefit of hindsight. The arms race that the US pushed or reacted to depending on your perspective, the cost of it all, along with Soviet leadership that saw the light, was one of the reasons why the USSR collapsed when it did.

It is threatening that as countries have pealed away from the USSR, that Russia/Putin is trying to force them back into the fold. We can stand by and watch this or again react to it. And usually in these circumstances acting sooner than later is the better thing to do.

And btw we can thank our lucky stars that Trump is not in charge of our military and State Department. :unsure:
 
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Look, there is no doubt that capitalism without regulations is a bad thing, especially when you have powerful forces so easily able to manipulate it and the concept of "free markets" turned out to be a sham, but it is still the best economic system we have come up with to date. It needs to be closely regulated though - something that many right wing politicians are desperate to remove across the globe.

There is also no doubt the US foreign policy and meddling in foreign countries has fucked things up in places like the Middle East and Latin America. There is also a lot of good though that came out of it. It's easy to focus on the bad and forget about all of the good

But, that's not what this topic is all about. It is about Ukraine and you seem confused and misinformed on the topic. Ukraine has been a tumultuous region throughout known history, but without going back a thousand years, let's focus on the important bits.



There were already ethnic Russians living in the area a century ago. During the USSR days many more Russians were brought into eastern Ukraine and many Ukrainians were sent on holiday to sunny Siberia. The end result is the situation in eastern Ukraine. Crimean Oblast is a particularly interesting area. Here is a short hint into the developments that led us to today



Ukrainian citizens voted to leave the USSR in 1991. It was around 92% if I remember correctly.



Moving on then to the mid 2000s...

There were two candidates in the 2004 Ukraine presidential election: Yanukovych and Yushchenko.

Yanukovych was the primate minister and was supported by previous president, Kuchma, and the Russian Federation. Yushchenko was pro West and had the goal of joining the EU. Yanukovych won by a narrow margin, but there were widespread allegations of vote rigging and intimidation, especially in eastern Ukraine. Massive street protests erupted in Kyiv and other citiies - the Orange Revolution. The supreme court of Ukraine declared the results void and another election saw Yushchenko as the winner.

Yushchenko's reign saw him pushing towards improved relations with EU, straining the relationship between Russia and Ukraine further. 2010 presidential elections came and Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko, once allies during the Orange Revolution, became enemies and thus the presidential race became a 3 way race. Yushchenko's popularity had plummeted by this stage. Our old pro Russia friend, Yanukovych, emerged as the winner with 48% vs 45% for Tymoshenko. Many of the pro-Orange revolution voters stayed at home due to the feud between Tymoshenko and Yushchenko.

Yanukovych tried to dismantle democracy in Ukraine from 2010 to 2014. He put Tymoshenko in prison, for example, in the hope of dismantling his oppositiopn. Yanukovych continued to push the country closer to Russia and did not sign the Ukraine - EU association agreement in November 2013. This resulted in protests on the streets of Kyiv and ultimately lead to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, thus giving Russia the pretext to enter the country under the guise of peacekeepers.

I am genuinely not sure where your feelings about the US and the importance of multiple world super powers fits into all of this. Unless you are suggesting that it's good for Putin and Russia to take over other countries and become a super power once again, because it's good for world peace. The proxy wars fought around the globe during the cold war suggest your hypothesis is flawed.



From Vlad himself. He wrote an essay about it and everything... back in 2006, or 2008. I can't remember.
Excellent, well-informed and thoughtful post.
 
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According to Russian TV station "Россия 24" this is how Ukraine emerged as a country:

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This evening two further developents have occurred, apart, that is, from the Russians closing their embassy in Kyiv, - cue images of scurrying diplomats with wheelie suitcases, the inevitable wisps of smoke and shuttered windows - and an earlier (one can wearily predict some of the moves - as in chess - that will be played by the Russian authorities) internet denial of service - in other words, a massive cyber-attack - across much of Ukraine, targeting - among many others - several government ministries.

These are, firstly: The Ukrainian government have declared a state of emergency (which will allow them to call upon considerable powers).

And, secondly, the key move in justfying an invasion, (in Russia) the separatist leaders in Luhansk and Donetsk (in an exquisitely choreographed but not remotely surprising move) have officially "requested" military aid - military force - from Russia, ostensibly to "repel Ukrainian aggression".

For those who want a more nuanced take, (and it is an excellent piece), Jonathan Steele in today's Guardian has an article that is well worth a read.
 
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This evening two further developents have occurred, apart, that is, from the Russians closing their embassy in Kyiv, - cue images of scurrying diplomats with wheelie suitcases, the inevitable wisps of smoke and shuttered windows - and an earlier (one can wearily predict some of the moves - as in chess - that will be played by the Russian authorities) internet denial of service across much of Ukraine, targeting - among others - government ministries.

These are, firstly: The Ukrainian government have declared a state of emergency (which will allow them to call upon considerable powers).

And, secondly, the key move in justfying an invasion, (in Russia) the separatist leaders in Luhansk and Donetsk (in an exquisitely choreographed but not remotely surprising move) have officially "requested" military aid - military force - from Russia, ostensibly to "repel Ukrainian aggression".

For those who want a more nuanced take, (and it is an excellent piece), Jonathan Steele in today's Guardian has an article that is well worth a read.
The closing of the embassy is to me a clear sign that the idea is still to get to Kiev.
 
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