Russia-Ukraine

[SuperMatt]

Putin is essentially threatening to use nukes if any nation interferes with his invasion of Ukraine.

Many EU countries are STILL resistant to putting serious sanctions in place.

Look, Europe, just rip the band-aid off. Cut off ALL trade to Russia. Find alternate energy sources, find a way to manage without Russian trade, and isolate the country. The temporary economic hit will be worth it in the long run when things get so bad in Russia that the people oust Putin. Even Russians that believe the propaganda of “Ukraine is run by Nazis” don’t think the invasion is a good idea. They will turn on Putin if things get really bad.

Without European money coming in, Russia won’t last a year. China isn’t gonna save them. Europe could take out Putin if they were willing to suffer some temporary economic pain.

 

[Huntn]

Jim Townsend- The Ukraine was not built up to where it needed to be. Its military is better than where it was in 2014, but not enough. The Trump Administration wasted 4 years in this regard.

…and he’s not going to go against his best buddy strongman.

 

[Deleted member 215]

You can’t rule out that it’s Maybe because we are

Maybe we need tough strongman Trump

 

[Eric]

Maybe we need tough strongman Trump

Trump would be sending in troops to assist Putin and would have a hotel up in Ukraine within 6 months.

 

[SuperMatt]

Jim Townsend- The Ukraine was not built up to where it needed to be. Its military is better than where it was in 2014, but not enough. The Trump Administration wasted 4 years in this regard.

…and he’s not going to go against his best buddy strongman.

The GOP could have removed Trump for his misdeeds in blackmailing Ukraine, withholding military aid unless they came up with “dirt” on Biden’s son. But they decided to vote against conviction in the impeachment trial.

It’s complete that right-wingers are now saying Trump would have prevented this. In reality, Trump is the one who paved the highway for Russia to take over. Legitimizing Putin, driving wedges between our NATO allies, withholding military aid from Ukraine, you name it.

 

[quagmire]

My biggest takeaway from reading reactions to this?

People just want to use the invasion to score petty partisan points here in the US. Yep Russia invades Ukraine, but all I see on facebook and other websites is petty partisanship about how Biden is the worst president ever, Trump wouldn't let Putin do this, etc.

I see it here too with comments like Putin is Trump's best buddy.

Stop with the petty BS. If you want to say the sanctions are not strong enough and need to be harsher, fine. But don't use this to further your own biased and petty BS......

I also don't get people who disagree with any sanctions claiming they are ineffective, but don't want to get militarily involved. What should we do then?

 

[Deleted member 215]

So, genuine question to everyone in this thread: if Biden announced right now he was sending U.S. troops to Ukraine to fight the Russians, would you be satisfied?

I'm trying to figure out what people actually want to happen.

 

[quagmire]

So, genuine question to everyone in this thread: if Biden announced right now he was sending U.S. troops to Ukraine to fight the Russians, would you be satisfied?

I'm trying to figure out what people actually want to happen.

People just want to squabble and complain about Trump or Biden and using this as another way to do it. Not actually caring about the actual invasion by Russia.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Trump would be sending in troops to assist Putin and would have a hotel up in Ukraine within 6 months.

If Trump gets a second term he'll probably try to invent some US + Russia vs everybody else alliance. At that point Putin will bend him over and Trump will say Putin fucking him shows that he considers him an equal.

 

[Arkitect]

Illustration: Ben Jennings/The Guardian

 

[Huntn]

My biggest takeaway from reading reactions to this?

People just want to use the invasion to score petty partisan points here in the US. Yep Russia invades Ukraine, but all I see on facebook and other websites is petty partisanship about how Biden is the worst president ever, Trump wouldn't let Putin do this, etc.

I see it here too with comments like Putin is Trump's best buddy.

Stop with the petty BS. If you want to say the sanctions are not strong enough and need to be harsher, fine. But don't use this to further your own biased and petty BS......

I also don't get people who disagree with any sanctions claiming they are ineffective, but don't want to get militarily involved. What should we do then?

I like some of what you said but describing Putin as Donny’s best buddy is not only, not petty, but damned accurate. The former POTUS who on multiple occasions has professed this admiration for strongman dictators, did his best to drive a stake into the heart of NATO, to such a degree I shudder to think of that sinister human being in charge of the US Military and State Dept at this point in time.

And the Right Wing members who are trying to dump on Biden for political advantage because of this conflict is not only expected, but transparent, and disgusting. In fact the move of Right Wing Pundits into the defense of a Russia mode based on their devotion to Trump, is far beyond petty. It’s damned alarming and drifting towards treasonous.

 

[Deleted member 215]

People just want to squabble and complain about Trump or Biden and using this as another way to do it. Not actually caring about the actual invasion by Russia.

Seems to be the case. I would bet a majority of Americans do not want to get militarily involved and risk nuclear war with Russia or WWIII. So then sanctions are your only option. Sorry if that makes you feel "weak", but then maybe you should be the one on the ground willing to fight the Russians.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

My biggest takeaway from reading reactions to this?

People just want to use the invasion to score petty partisan points here in the US. Yep Russia invades Ukraine, but all I see on facebook and other websites is petty partisanship about how Biden is the worst president ever, Trump wouldn't let Putin do this, etc.

I see it here too with comments like Putin is Trump's best buddy.

Stop with the petty BS. If you want to say the sanctions are not strong enough and need to be harsher, fine. But don't use this to further your own biased and petty BS......

Agree with this and well said.

Please do not derail this thread into a (futile) discussion of (the utterly loathsome) Mr Trump, and Mr Biden, and the wider distraction of US politics, even in the context of Ukraine - we have "loads of place", plenty of space, - and a laid back approach to political discussion - to start as many threads on the topic as you wish.

I do sometimes get very tired of how US centric much political discussion is, both here and elsewhere. I get - understand - that it is compelling and incredibly important.

However, it is not the only show in town, especially on the day Ukraine has been invaded - and should not be allowed to soak up all of the available oxygen in a discussion chamber.

.....

Stop with the petty BS. If you want to say the sanctions are not strong enough and need to be harsher, fine. But don't use this to further your own biased and petty BS......

I also don't get people who disagree with any sanctions claiming they are ineffective, but don't want to get militarily involved. What should we do then?

Sanctions (especially robust, far-reaching and comprehensive sanctions, not just the appearance of sanctions) are - and can be - exceptionally effective.

Very effective, and this sort of "soft power" tool is one at which the EU excels and has considerable experience and expertise at.

However, it is not immediately effective - they can take months, and years to bite fully.

For an audience weaned on sound-bites, a 24 hour news cycle, and with a limited attention span, a focus on economic hits can look less than exciting.

People just want to squabble and complain about Trump or Biden and using this as another way to do it. Not actually caring about the actual invasion by Russia.

Well said.

 

[yaxomoxay]

So, genuine question to everyone in this thread: if Biden announced right now he was sending U.S. troops to Ukraine to fight the Russians, would you be satisfied?

I'm trying to figure out what people actually want to happen.

Now it’s way too late. The Russian buildup started back in November. That’s when a coalition should’ve immediately put boots on the ground. As soon as the buildup reached critical mass, heavy sanctions should’ve started.

 

[Huntn]

If Trump gets a second term he'll probably try to invent some US + Russia vs everybody else alliance. At that point Putin will bend him over and Trump will say Putin fucking him shows that he considers him an equal.

Heaven forbid if we see Trump as POTUS a second time, expect the worst. I would not be surprised if this is the trigger that leads to the USA actual unraveling.

 

[User.45]

So, genuine question to everyone in this thread: if Biden announced right now he was sending U.S. troops to Ukraine to fight the Russians, would you be satisfied?

I'm trying to figure out what people actually want to happen.

Sanctions that are proportional to Putin’s aggression. Cut em off SWIFT freeze assets. Halt ALL trade, ban Russian participation from international events including junk like Eurovision. Scrap Russian sponsorship insignia from sports teams.

That would be a good start. You’re somewhat right, Trump himself is irrelevant. But when people like Erdogan or Orban take a stance and foxnews’ america is in deny/minimize/deflect mode, you know we have huge internal problems. I can’t images any other era in the history of the USA where this wouldn’t be an immediate uniting situation.

 

[User.45]

Now it’s way too late. The Russian buildup started back in November. That’s when a coalition should’ve immediately put boots on the ground. As soon as the buildup reached critical mass, heavy sanctions should’ve started.

I think then it would have been much harder to convince public opinion about the necessity of their sacrifices, and Putin would have used it as proof of Western Imperialism. The only upside is that at least we have an international consensus we would never had otherwise

 

[yaxomoxay]

Please do not derail this thread into a (futile) discussion of (the utterly loathsome) Mr Trump, and Mr Biden, and the wider distraction of US politics, even in the context of Ukraine - we have "loads of place", plenty of space, - and a laid back approach to political discussion - to start as many threads on the topic as you wish.

I second this with all my heart.

 

[yaxomoxay]

I think then it would have been much harder to convince public opinion about the necessity of their sacrifices, and Putin would have used it as proof of Western Imperialism.

What Putin would’ve used, is irrelevant. But you snapped a good picture of the underlying problem: the West (meant as EU and US plus a few other countries) is not willing to pay the price to stop Putin. He knows that, hence the invasion with total disregard of Ukraine or international peace.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Sanctions (especially robust, far-reaching and comprehensive sanctions, not just the appearance of sanctions) are - and can be - exceptionally effective.

Very effective, and this sort of "soft power" tool is one at which the EU excels and has considerable experience and expertise at.

However, it is not immediately effective - they can take months, and years to bite fully.

I wonder how much hesitation on sanctions is due to people outside Russia also getting pounded economically, and I’m not talking the average person at the gas pump. We’re already at the civil breaking point economically and those at the top won’t be able to have their losses subsidized by the tax payers again.