Russia-Ukraine

Saddam Hussein wasn't assassinated after he was found in his bunker.

He was arrested, tried, sentenced and then hanged... all by Iraqis operating officially under auspices of the post-Hussien interim government.

The charges laid were for crimes against humanity, specifically the 1982 massacre of 148 Iraqi Shia then living in Dujail, Iraq. That massacre was planned and directed by Hussein in retaliation for an attempted assassination attempt against him while he was in Dujail making a speech.​
In his retaliation, Hussein had also directed the razing of the homes and orchards belonging to the detained Shia who lived along the road where the assassination attempt had occurred.​

One point here is that if we believe in rule of law we can't just assassinate a rogue head of state. Another is that the price for either a failed assassination attempt or a successful one is incalculable in advance. Violence begets violence. Anything from the slaughter of innocents to a civil war and yet more slaughter is possible

Look back at assorted attempts or actual assassinations and coups even just over the 20th century, where a head of state ended up not just deposed but dead. Sometimes anarchy ensued, sometimes civil war, sometimes another strongman emerged.

Let Putin's constituents bring him to justice. And let them consider that Hussein was brought to his end in courts of law and through legal process. The Iraqis who first tried just to assassinate Hussein paid a heavy price, as did their families and community. Nearly 20 years later he was ousted via the 2003 invasion, with intent to depose him, but the occupiers did not assassinate him. He was taken prisoner and turned over to the Iraqis for prosecution as they saw fit.

I certainly get why one can wish someone would off Putin. People are suffering and dying in Ukraine and in the bordering countries with every hour this vile aggression continues. But assassination is not a solution.
The whole "rule of law" is always used when it favors one's talking points. Did the unarmed black man who resisted arrest and was shot and killed as a result because he wasn't following the "rule of law" deserve it? Use conveniently as you see fit.

If we had a chance to stop Hitler before he murdered 6 million Jews, would that have been acceptable?
 
The whole "rule of law" is always used when it favors one's talking points. Did the unarmed black man who resisted arrest and was shot and killed as a result because he wasn't following the "rule of law" deserve it? Use conveniently as you see fit.
But your analogy is like the British would come and stop the cop from shooting the unarmed black man. We are responsible for that shit, not some other country.
If we had a chance to stop Hitler before he murdered 6 million Jews, would that have been acceptable?
If it happened before the 2nd WW, he would have just become a martyr and somebody else would have orchestrated the holocaust. Perhaps less effectively if it's a lucky timeline, or perhaps the nazis would have even won the war if it's not a lucky timeline.

I believe that most events, trends, happen not because of the individual, but because of society being primed for those to happen. Putin might be singlehandedly responsible for the war, but the emergence of Putin could happen because of Russia's readiness to produce a Putin. Assassinating a single person rarely achieves the unpriming effect we are all longing for.
 
Initially I did find the idea alluring (even before this was publicly talked about), since there is virtually no way for Putin to exit the situation gracefully and feel secure while not in power. However, I had to dismiss the idea upon further thought. Besides rule-of-law issues, the ensuing chaos and power struggle will probably be terrible - and the consequences unimaginable given Russia's nuclear capabilities. Someone who craves power may point to Ukraine and galvanise the Russian population to unite behind him/her and launch an all-out war (if it is not one already). And it will not solve the underlying cause which enabled Putin to rise to power; the institutions of oligarchy and 'mutual assistance/protection' will still be in place.

In any case, history taught us that removing a government/leadership is relatively straightforward; dealing with the aftermath and rebuilding a country is not.

p/s: I posed a question to The Economist panel last Friday - what will happen if Putin is indeed assassinated? It was not taken up probably due to lack of time, but will be interested to see what they think of it.
 
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But your analogy is like the British would come and stop the cop from shooting the unarmed black man. We are responsible for that shit, not some other country.
Right, if it doesn't affect me directly locally in my backyard then turn a blind eye. Got it.

If it happened before the 2nd WW, he would have just become a martyr and somebody else did the holocaust. Perhaps less effectively if it's a lucky timeline, or perhaps the nazis would have even won the war if it's not a lucky timeline.

I believe that most events, trends, happen not because of the individual, but because of society being primed for those to happen. Putin might be singlehandedly responsible for the war, but the emergence of Putin could happen because of Russia's readiness to produce a Putin. Assassinating a single person rarely achieves the unpriming effect we are all longing for.
You have absolutely no way of knowing that, yet present it as fact. Defending the likes of Hitler, Putin and Hussein as better than an alternative you can't present is hardly a convincing argument.

BTW like it or not we're already involved in this war, we just don't have boots on the ground yet. Here are some stats on the polling data around what people think of further involving ourselves into it.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1500894539304902659/
 
Right, if it doesn't affect me directly locally in my backyard then turn a blind eye. Got it.
When was the last time you told someone how to raise their kids, or treat their loved ones even if you disagreed? Based on this logic, you continuously should do that without weighing your decisions.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that, yet present it as fact. Defending the likes of Hitler, Putin and Hussein as better than an alternative you can't present is hardly a convincing argument.
This illogical. If the present is the only fact then the outcome of an imaginary assassination of Hitler should be treated as fantasy too.

BTW like it or not we're already involved in this war, we just don't have boots on the ground yet.
And I've not seen anybody saying we should unconditionally avoid having boots on the ground.

Here are some stats on the polling data around what people think of further involving ourselves into it.
That poll is from Feb 26 to March 1st. It really depends on whether it was explained what a no fly zone means... Because I suspect most people don't know it doesn't only mean sending fighter jets in, it also involves destroying Russian anti-air missile systems that threaten the zone and then at least intercepting, but more like shooting down any hostile planes in the zone. I personally wasn't aware of the anti-air defense action part, and I suspect most of the people asked a week ago weren't either.

Sauce:
 
The whole "rule of law" is always used when it favors one's talking points. Did the unarmed black man who resisted arrest and was shot and killed as a result because he wasn't following the "rule of law" deserve it? Use conveniently as you see fit.

If we had a chance to stop Hitler before he murdered 6 million Jews, would that have been acceptable?

Last thing first: no one knows for sure what twist or turn history would have taken if not for some particular person or some event seen as precipitated by that person. It's not as clear-cut as in the proverb:

For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,​
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,​
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,​
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,​
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,​
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.​

Moving on: It's not right to suggest that the west is not doing enough or not doing anything regarding Putin's unwarranted invasion of Ukraine. So far we're not crazy enough to try to put up a no fly zone. That would say "to hell with Ukraine, this is between you and me now. buddy," i.e. between Putin and Biden. No one in right mind wants that escalation.

So then, what instead? Yeah, poor old tired "rule of law". Help without engaging directly. Don't assassinate, offer to facilitate negotiations, find honest brokers acceptable to Russia -- France, Turkey, Israel, the Vatican... And meanwhile arm the hell out of the Ukrainians trying to defend their country. Publicize the facts on the ground as we find and verify them.

We're doing all that... The USA has been moving heaven and earth along with more and more EU and other European countries to try to get Ukraine's defenses bolstered, all without ending up having triggered a wider war via giving Putin an excuse to roll on to wherever else strikes his fancy... maybe this revanchist wacko would like to go all the way back out to his old KGB era stomping ground in Dresden?

I'm sure Putin still regards "East Germany" as part of his personal map of the Russian Empire. What we don't know is how sound of mind Putin really is, and how much support or potential resistance there is for his "project" of roping all of Ukraine back into his sphere of influence.

The USA and NATO have been helping train Ukrainian defense for months now, supplying weapons, talking up sanctions with Europe, engaging in diplomacy up the kazoo with anyone who wants to talk or might have an in with Putin, and also being transparent about intel gathered on what Putin has been up to, which info Biden has been declassifying a lot of in almost real time.

All that --and more, e.g. cyberwatchfulness, social media etc,-- and all to the point of waking people up and building interest in presenting Putin with the one thing he didn't figure on, namely a united front from the west and neutral countries all saying "Don't do this, don't figure on this, turn around, this is not how it works now."

People think of the UN as toothless, and in a way it is, but it SAYS SOMETHING when all but a tiny handful of the world's nations stood up for territorial integrity of Ukraine the other day in the General Assembly vote. Those delegates can't agree on the time of day but they all understand they don't want some neighbor barging into their turf with intent to acquire it.

So all in all, what has been accomplished regarding Ukraine v Russia so far, without nukes being launched, is pretty impressive. if you ask me. Is it enough? No. It's tragic what's happening now, beyond tragic, and so unnecessary. But the USA and Russia are not minor players, we do have a fraught history, and we both do have nukes and so do some other countries.

The first point is not to use the nukes, not over Ukraine, not over anything. The idea of a mutally assured destruction counts on no one suddenly deciding they don't care and so going to launch anyway,..​

So the other point is not to make the other guy so angry he forgets the first point. All we really have there is to remember to act under rule of law.​

Mistakes can be made, are being made right now: the destruction in Ukraine being wreaked by Putin's doubling-down reaction to his own miscalculation is horrendous. Human rights violations and war crimes are clearly taking place. But the one mistake the planet can't absorb is two nuclear-armed powers engaging in nuclear warfare over geopolitical grievances that cannot in fact be resolved by force. We can't keep Putin from using nuclear weapons but we need to stay clear of being stupid enough to provoke him into going first.
 
When was the last time you told someone how to raise their kids, or treat their loved ones even if you disagreed? Based on this logic, you continuously should do that without weighing your decisions.


This illogical. If the present is the only fact then the outcome of an imaginary assassination of Hitler should be treated as fantasy too.
Okay, most of this is simply nonsensical, as well as the British police analogy which had nothing to do with the point of "rule of law", which was that it's only used when convenient by either side. Otherwise you all would've been defending George Zimmerman when it was all found to be above board and legal.

And I've not seen anybody saying we should unconditionally avoid having boots on the ground.
We agree here, is this what you meant to say?

That poll is from Feb 26 to March 1st. It really depends on whether it was explained what a no fly zone means... Because I suspect most people don't know it doesn't only mean sending fighter jets in, it also involves destroying Russian anti-air missile systems that threaten the zone and then at least intercepting, but more like shooting down any hostile planes in the zone. I personally wasn't aware of the anti-air defense action part, and I suspect most of the people asked a week ago weren't either.

Sauce:
I don't think people are too stupid to understand what it means, the news has been saying it day in and day out. All politicians and NATO have also made it clear. They're just not all people sheltered in Liberal echo chambers.
 
Initially I did find the idea alluring (even before this was publicly talked about), since there is virtually no way for Putin to exit the situation gracefully and feel secure while not in power. However, I had to dismiss the idea upon further thought. Besides rule-of-law issues, the ensuing chaos and power struggle will probably be terrible - and the consequences unimaginable given Russia's nuclear capabilities. Someone who craves power may point to Ukraine and galvanise the Russian population to unite behind him/her and launch an all-out war (if it is not one already). And it will not solve the underlying cause which enabled Putin to rise to power; the institutions of oligarchy and 'mutual assistance/protection' will still be in place.

In any case, history taught us that removing a government/leadership is relatively straightforward; dealing with the aftermath and rebuilding a country is not.

p/s: I posed a question to The Economist panel last Friday - what will happen if Putin is indeed assassinated? It was not taken up probably due to lack of time, but will be interested to see what they think of it.
I had the same thoughts as well initially. However I have since changed my stance.
 
Initially I did find the idea alluring (even before this was publicly talked about), since there is virtually no way for Putin to exit the situation gracefully and feel secure while not in power. However, I had to dismiss the idea upon further thought. Besides rule-of-law issues, the ensuing chaos and power struggle will probably be terrible - and the consequences unimaginable given Russia's nuclear capabilities. Someone who craves power may point to Ukraine and galvanise the Russian population to unite behind him/her and launch an all-out war (if it is not one already). And it will not solve the underlying cause which enabled Putin to rise to power; the institutions of oligarchy and 'mutual assistance/protection' will still be in place.

In any case, history taught us that removing a government/leadership is relatively straightforward; dealing with the aftermath and rebuilding a country is not.

p/s: I posed a question to The Economist panel last Friday - what will happen if Putin is indeed assassinated? It was not taken up probably due to lack of time, but will be interested to see what they think of it.
If the atrocities are great, I'm of the opinion you cut the head off the monster. Even knowing what we know now, to say taking out Hitler would've been a bad idea because someone else may have killed 6 million Jews anyway is insane.

One thing is clear, Putin has a lot of people shaking in their boots and they want to capitulate and placate him, whether it's Liberals on social media or Fox News pundits, partisans seem to want the same thing.

Zelensky is the only one with any real backbone while we all sit here in our comfy homes bitching about how we should not help them as we watch their people being slaughtered in the streets every day on the nightly news.
 
Okay, most of this is simply nonsensical, as well as the British police analogy which had nothing to do with the point of "rule of law", which was that it's only used when convenient by either side. Otherwise you all would've been defending George Zimmerman when it was all found to be above board and legal.
Thin is the line between bully and savior. Rittenhouse was also thinking he was doing the right thing.
The british police analogy, is that the British cannot fix policing issues of the USA. You can't fix the root cause of others' issues based on your own outsider perception. Otherwise Afghanistan would be a functional democracy.
We agree here, is this what you meant to say?
Yes. Just chill:)

I don't think people are too stupid to understand what it means, the news has been saying it day in and day out. All politicians and NATO have also made it clear. They're just not all people sheltered in Liberal echo chambers.
Well, then I'm apparently less informed and dumber than the average. Nobody's perfect, I guess.
 
STFU with that stupid trope, you guys can't argue your points clearly and keep reverting back to this stupid talking point.
Let's summarize it. You claim moral superiority by saying we should support escalation no matter what the human cost, but are also not willing to give your own life for said superiority. Your insults saved 0 lives today, but at least you'll get to sleep feeling like you did something. Congrats.
 
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