Let's summarize it. You claim moral superiority by saying we should support escalation no matter what the human cost, but are also not willing to give your own life for said superiority. Your insults saved 0 lives today, but at least you'll get to sleep feeling like you did something. Congrats.
I don't claim moral authority, I would like to see the people of Ukraine being defended. You just see that as me being a warmonger and then make childish talking points about those who disagree should all go fight the war themselves. Have you not seen some of the unjust causes we've sent people to war over? This is NOT one of them.
And when it comes to moral authority you have no room to talk, every other post you make is smug and snobbish. You like to talk down at people rather than to them, maybe you just don't realize it but you're also regularly insulting to others.
I don't claim moral authority, I would like to see the people of Ukraine being defended. You just see that as me being a warmonger and then make childish talking points about those who disagree should all go fight the war themselves.
Absolutely not, you're free to do what you want but I won't be asking you to leave. I've said from the start things will get heated here. It's one issue and we clearly don't agree, it is what it is.
Absolutely not, you're free to do what you want but I won't be asking you to leave. I've said from the start things will get heated here. It's one issue and we clearly don't agree, it is what it is.
As far as how should we respond I'm split, I never like to see the slaughter of innocent people and that will likely happen here. I also think we don't need to be sticking our nose into every war out there and need to stop playing world police. In the end we have no real interests there and humans aren't as important as oil or we would've had troops en masse there months ago.
Our feelings change more often than we realize. I read back a couple of my early posts before the invasion and I was previously more hawkish on sending troops into Ukraine. I hadn’t thought through the fact that it could possibly lead to nuclear war, so I have changed my feelings on that now. I can see your feelings changed from 50/50 not wanting to interfere, to strong support of America and other nations stepping in. I can understand why, after seeing the civilians being killed by the Russian Army.
I recall right after 9/11, I was extremely angry and would have supported basically any action against any group of people I thought was in any way responsible, so I get where you’re coming from.
I want America to do the most it possibly can to help, without risking full-out war with Russia, which could be disastrous for the entire world.
Absolutely not, you're free to do what you want but I won't be asking you to leave. I've said from the start things will get heated here. It's one issue and we clearly don't agree, it is what it is.
Those participating in this thread clearly do not want dissenting opinions, it's also the reason most Republicans won't touch this site with a 10 ft pole. However, if you want to start a new thread on this I'll close this one up and stay out of it going forward. I'll let you guys decide.
Tell ya what, Putin has inadvertently but totally galvanized Ukrainians in the western provinces. They all know they're Ukrainians.
Even now there are demonstrations of thousands of Ukrainians in the occupied cities. They want the occupiers to go home. even as Russia still struggles with the logistics needed to support its effort to take control of Ukraine's municipal and central governments.
The Ukrainians will make Russia's experience in Afghanistan look like tryouts for junior varsity badminton, if Putin decides to prolong presence in Ukraine to ensure safety of any puppet governments he tries to install.
And, the eight year slog the Russian-backed insurgents have had in the eastern provinces are nothing to what will go on in the west of the country in terms of resistance to Putin's efforts. It could go on for decades, or longer. Ukrainians did not provoke this invasion. And in the western part of Ukraine they are not bedeviled with tribal issues (as was and is the case in Afghanistan). By that I mean that they elected a central government they had actually wanted, and it was making decisions on their behalf and with their approval. They will not forgive this incursion and attempt at a takeover by Russia.
Russia should sit down and negotiate a way to go home real soon now, with some duly signed paperwork that says OK Ukraine won't stick east-facing missile launchers smack on its easternmost border, and Russia won't ever stop by for tea again without being invited.
Those participating in this thread clearly do not want dissenting opinions, it's also the reason most Republicans won't touch this site with a 10 ft pole. However, if you want to start a new thread on this I'll close this one up and stay out of it going forward. I'll let you guys decide.
If we cannot even manage to discuss this without fighting bitterly amongst ourselves, it just goes to show how incredibly adept Vladdy is at sowing discord and division. This is a battle we absolutely must not let him win.
If we cannot even manage to discuss this without fighting bitterly amongst ourselves, it just goes to show how incredibly adept Vladdy is at sowing discord and division. This is a battle we absolutely must not let him win.
We allow him to do it because everyone refuses to confront him, he's a corrupt piece of shit dictator who needs to be put down but instead we'll all protect him and let him kill anyone he wants with no consequences.
At noon on March 4, an SUV drove through the streets of Bucha, formerly a cozy green town near Kyiv, now a hotspot of Russia’s war against Ukraine. Three people were in the car: Serhiy Ustymenko, 25, a co-founder of a car repair shop, Maxym Kuzmenko, 28, a hookah
kyivindependent.com
Russian soldiers murder volunteers helping starving animals near Kyiv
At noon on March 4, an SUV drove through the streets of Bucha, formerly a cozy green town near Kyiv, now a hotspot of Russia’s war against Ukraine.
Three people were in the car: Serhiy Ustymenko, 25, a co-founder of a car repair shop, Maxym Kuzmenko, 28, a hookah server, and Anastasia Yalanska, 26, a lead recruiter at an IT company.
Bucha was and remains a dangerous place, now largely controlled by Russian forces. The three young Ukrainians were there on an important mission.
They had just delivered dog food to a dog shelter that had run out of it and were on their way back to pick up Ustymenko’s parents.
They had just nearly made it home. As the car was approaching their house, there was a deafening sound.
A Russian vehicle – witnesses identify it as either a tank or an infantry fighting vehicle – opened fire on the car.
Valeriy Ustymenko, the father of Serhiy, witnessed the attack. He saw the car be ripped apart, with his son in it.
When the shooting stopped, he ran to the car. Everyone inside was already dead.
He dragged out the three bodies and took them to his basement, where he has been hiding from the constant shelling, like most people in Bucha.
Three days later, the bodies are still there. Due to constant shelling, they can’t be buried. Their friends and families can’t say goodbye to their loved ones.
Ustymenko’s father is still in the basement, hiding from the shelling, with the bodies of his son and his son’s two friends.
There was no way that Russians didn’t know they were shooting at civilians, the victims’ friends say.
“The car was (obviously) civilian,” said Dmytro Zubkov, a friend of Maxym Kuzmenko. “Maxym was wearing a hat with a pom pom. They didn’t look like the military at all.”
We allow him to do it because everyone refuses to confront him, he's a corrupt piece of shit dictator who needs to be put down but instead we'll all protect him and let him kill anyone he wants with no consequences.
Just to be clear, I have no desire, strong or otherwise, in seeing Putin having a nice retirement. I suspect many here aren't rooting for that either.
I like to say "you do the right thing because it's the right thing to do". As much as my heart likes your line of thinking, my brain doesn't. Killing him might stop the current situation, or it might not. My gut thinks the chances are low, but I can't predict the future. I have to trust that those in charge of making such decisions know a lot more about those things than I do.
If you think we do the "right thing" regardless of the cost, then deal with the consequences afterwards, I'll respect that. But it's not a position I can agree with. I think the "right thing" in this case is to not risk turning this into something much bigger and even more deadly than what we're already seeing. Maybe I'm wrong. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. As much as you used the word "we", "we" are actually quite powerless to do anything more than share opinions online.
I’m all for getting rid of Putin (and the sooner the better) but it has to come from the Russians themselves as is tradition. Right now anything else would end up poorly for everyone involved.
So I did some googling, and believe it or not, it turns out that bickering on forums and playing armchair geopolitics does little to help people in need. So I did some more googling, and I compiled some links to actually help (they all come from official Ukraine government channels or well established charities).
Unless you live next to the Ukrainian border, one of the best ways to help is by donating cash through trusted charities and aid organisations, rather than donating goods. Cash can be transferred quickly to areas where it is needed and individuals and aid organisations can use it to buy what is most needed. All the charities agree:
Unsolicited donations of goods, although well-meant,
can obstruct supply chains and delay more urgent life-saving assistance from getting through.
(I've put some stuff in quotes to make it easier to collapse and read):
UKRAINE'S OFFICIAL ARMED FORCES FUND:
This is the link to the actual Bank of Ukraine website, and money donated there will go directly to their fund for the Ukrainian armed forces. Short of going to Ukraine and grabbing a rifle, this is the best way to help directly in the fight:
The National Bank of Ukraine has decided to open a special fundraising account to support the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The central bank’s decision comes after the Ukrainian gove...
bank.gov.ua
The fund also takes cryptocurrencies now, so if you have some laying around, you can put them to good use by sending it here:
BTC 357a3So9CbsNfBBgFYACGvxxS6tMaDoa1P ETH and USDT (ERC-20): 0x165CD37b4C644C2921454429E7F9358d18A45e14 Polkadot: 1x8aa2N2Ar9SQweJv9vsuZn3WYDHu7gMQu1RePjZuBe33Hv
That said, it's important to note that unless you're a very generous millionaire, Western countries are already helping Ukraine's armed forces with hundreds of millions of dollars, so your contributions might be put to better use if you help other smaller organisations directly:
Housing:
People fleeing Ukraine are at the worst point in their lives having lost everything, so if you can, please sign up to host them here: https://www.ukrainetakeshelter.com/ or even better, by contacting your closest Ukrainian consulate (*not* embassy) who might have a program already set up and offering your help.
Paramedic assistance:
This is for the Ukrainian Hospitaller corps, they've been active since 2014. As it often happens these days, their main website is a facebook page, but they have been endorsed by official channels, so if you want your money to go to them, use these links.
For Americans who want to send USD:
BENEFICIARY
FEDIANOVYCH HANNA VITALIIVNA
13 Zakhidna Str., Pavlohrad, 51400, Pavlohradskyi district, Dnipropetrovsk region, Ukraine.
IBAN:
UA973052990262086400928825287
ACCOUNT
4149 4993 9795 0427
BANK OF BENEFICIARY
JSC CB PRIVATBANK, 1D HRUSHEVSKOHO STR., KYIV, 01001, UKRAINE
SWIFT CODE/BIC:
PBANUA2X
CORRESPONDENT ACCOUNT
0011000080
INTERMEDIARY BANK
JP MORGAN CHASE BANK
SWIFT CODE/BIC: CHASUS33
So I did some googling, and believe it or not, it turns out that bickering on forums and playing armchair geopolitics does little to help people in need. So I did some more googling, and I compiled some links to actually help (they all come from official Ukraine government channels or well established charities).
Unless you live next to the Ukrainian border, one of the best ways to help is by donating cash through trusted charities and aid organisations, rather than donating goods.
I guess the same logic can be applied to those who tried to go there and fight or help: unless one is well trained and well supplied (the latter is highly doubtful), it is more likely to be do more harm than be helpful.
It has been argued that much of international medical volunteering is done for the wrong reasons, in that local people serve as a means to meet volunteers’ needs, or for the right reasons but ignorance and ill-preparedness harm the intended beneficiaries, often without volunteers’ grasp of the...
tdtmvjournal.biomedcentral.com
Disaster aid responds to an unexpected and immediate need for medical aid for large numbers of people due to natural disasters and is, therefore, in certain aspects different from mainstream medical volunteering. Numerous ‘lessons learned’ accounts convey not only specialty-related experiences and harmful consequences of aid attempts, such as medical errors, the impossible follow-up of cases and staff distress. They also highlight repeatedly the importance of organisation, cooperation, and logistics, and the difficulties faced by the enormous influx of well-meaning unsolicited help hampering relief efforts. As a consequence, there are frequent calls for a much better preparation and preparedness in terms of global health training and within one’s profession, as well as ongoing support pre, during and post deployment. In a similar way, medical aid in war zones, though often longer term, also deals with large numbers of civilians and combatants in an unsafe environment and under challenging work conditions – probably better organised by selected organisations but staff are faced with similar issues.
Those participating in this thread clearly do not want dissenting opinions, it's also the reason most Republicans won't touch this site with a 10 ft pole. However, if you want to start a new thread on this I'll close this one up and stay out of it going forward. I'll let you guys decide.
We are in this awful situation where our countries have to sit and watch Ukraine be attacked and civilians slaughtered by an army/country that has no respect for the Geneva convention. We are already on dangerous ground with sanctions as Putin is declaring any form of interference with the Russian economy as an act of war. If we attempt any form of military involvement, it’s clear Putin is not going to constrain the conflict to the arena of battle but to the civilians of the countries should any country get involved. I don’t think Putin is worried about ending the World to be honest and has as much respect for his own people as he does for any other nations.
I really have no idea how this ends but am very worried about my children futures.
A video shared by the Ukrainian navy on Monday showed what appears to be a night-time firefight, with rockets flaming across a dark sky. The rocket exchange is followed by the sound of two men trying to work out whether they hit the ship.
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