Transgender, a Challenge for the Conservative Mindset

[The-Real-Deal82]

The evidence has shown that it is quite rare for transgender athletes to gain a distinct physical advantage. It’s not the problem that many claim it is.

I think it would depend on the sport of course. If it’s boxing or weightlifting then the physical advances men have are more defined, along with most contact sports. It’s a difficult topic as society is under pressure to rectify past stigma’s and prejudices and now sport is under the spot light to be more inclusive. I’d much rather a separate category in the spirit of fair competition.

 

[SuperMatt]

I think it would depend on the sport of course. If it’s boxing or weightlifting then the physical advances men have are more defined, along with most contact sports. It’s a difficult topic as society is under pressure to rectify past stigma’s and prejudices and now sport is under the spot light to be more inclusive. I’d much rather a separate category in the spirit of fair competition.

Such a “separate category” would not work. It would further ostracize a marginalized group of people.

I keep requesting evidence that transgender athletic dominance is a widespread problem, and I’m hearing crickets. Where are all the transgender women that are dominating boxing or weightlifting?

And why do you assume transgender women would/could dominate such sports? Do you think sex change surgery has no effect on physical strength and endurance? Reducing testosterone has no effect on such things?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Such a “separate category” would not work. It would further ostracize a marginalized group of people.

I keep requesting evidence that transgender athletic dominance is a widespread problem, and I’m hearing crickets. Where are all the transgender women that are dominating boxing or weightlifting?

And why do you assume transgender women would/could dominate such sports? Do you think sex change surgery has no effect on physical strength and endurance? Reducing testosterone has no effect on such things?

It might not work from the other stance either if biological women feel ostracised within their sports. It’s a difficult topic because sport in general needs to be careful not to force itself to suit a very small number competitors at the expense of alienating a significantly larger segment of participants. There are sports women who have been publicly unhappy about certain events and sadly are condemned by the press under the narrative of being transphobic.

I can’t really answer your questions about dominance as I haven’t claimed anything about that. You don’t have to have a complete sex change to be transgender. A work colleague and friend of mine has been transgender since February 2018 and has not yet decided whether she wants the operation. This is why it’s not a clear cut set of variables to consider.

 

[SuperMatt]

It might not work from the other stance either if biological women feel ostracised within their sports. It’s a difficult topic because sport in general needs to be careful not to force itself to suit a very small number competitors at the expense of alienating a significantly larger segment of participants. There are sports women who have been publicly unhappy about certain events and sadly are condemned by the press under the narrative of being transphobic.

I can’t really answer your questions about dominance as I haven’t claimed anything about that. You don’t have to have a complete sex change to be transgender. A work colleague and friend of mine has been transgender since February 2018 and has not yet decided whether she wants the operation. This is why it’s not a clear cut set of variables to consider.

To offer a slight bit more clarity on the sport aspect: the Olympics used to require one to have undergone gender change surgery and demonstrate specific low levels of testosterone. So, somebody currently transitioning to female wasn’t eligible for their new gender until the process is complete.

They have updated the rules recently. Here is a more detailed look at the latest rules.

The Olympics Just Announced New Rules for Trans Inclusion

They're being called “a victory for all athletes and fans.”

www.them.us

Other principles announced by the IOC today establish that trans and intersex athletes should not be assumed to have an unfair advantage over their competitors without scientific evidence; that restrictions on their participation must be based on “robust and peer reviewed research;” and that athletes be able to contest restrictions through “internal mediation mechanisms” or through a quasi-judicial process.

The part in bold highlights my largest source of frustration during this discussion. People automatically assume trans and intersex athletes have an unfair advantage. Full details in the link below.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.148710847.922111840.1650818188-1716186674.1650818188

 

[thekev]

The part in bold highlights my largest source of frustration during this discussion. People automatically assume trans and intersex athletes have an unfair advantage. Full details in the link below.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.148710847.922111840.1650818188-1716186674.1650818188

To be clear here, this doesn't say there isn't an advantage. This says they're going to assume no advantage unless future evidence suggests otherwise. If they have a small sample here, it's hard to draw conclusions. They are likely to have trouble with pushback if future evidence suggests that an advantage does exist. Keep in mind, if they don't want to pressure anyone into unwanted medical procedures, I'm wondering in which division people who are not undergoing any kind of hormone therapy but who now identify as the opposite sex will compete.

The part in bold highlights my largest source of frustration during this discussion. People automatically assume trans and intersex athletes have an unfair advantage. Full details in the link below.

Intersex refers to people who are born with both male and female genitalia. It's absurd to group the two.

 

[SuperMatt]

To be clear here, this doesn't say there isn't an advantage. This says they're going to assume no advantage unless future evidence suggests otherwise. If they have a small sample here, it's hard to draw conclusions. They are likely to have trouble with pushback if future evidence suggests that an advantage does exist. Keep in mind, if they don't want to pressure anyone into unwanted medical procedures, I'm wondering in which division people who are not undergoing any kind of hormone therapy but who now identify as the opposite sex will compete.




Intersex refers to people who are born with both male and female genitalia. It's absurd to group the two.

First part - the point is to examine the evidence, and not to assume any advantage. Many others have assumed there IS an inherent advantage as a starting point. Following the evidence is the best path forward, so I think the IOC approach is correct.

Second part: The article I quoted grouped the two together; I was simply repeating their language which I quoted above.

 

[thekev]

First part - the point is to examine the evidence, and not to assume any advantage. Many others have assumed there IS an inherent advantage as a starting point. Following the evidence is the best path forward, so I think the IOC approach is correct.

In cases where the individual was already an athlete pre-transition and isn't undergoing hormonal therapy, I'm suspicious they'll find evidence of an advantage. Right now they may be unsure what to do about it though. As I said before, forcing people to undergo additional medical procedures is a terrible solution, so it makes sense that they would want to get away from this.

In cases where a male to female trans person starts identifying and presenting as a woman, yet isn't doing anything else (likely to come up at some point), I'm wondering whether the Olympic committee would allow them to register as a woman. That's likely to convey an advantage, even if it won't ensure they place near the top.

Second part: The article I quoted grouped the two together; I was simply repeating their language which I quoted above.

Fair enough. It's definitely absurd on their part though.

 

[SuperMatt]

NCAA Woman of the Year nominee:

Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas nominated for NCAA 2022 Woman of the Year Award | CNN

The University of Pennsylvania nominated swimmer Lia Thomas -- who has become the face of the debate on transgender women in sports -- for the 2022 NCAA Woman of the Year award.

www.cnn.com

 

[mollyc]

NCAA Woman of the Year nominee:

Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas nominated for NCAA 2022 Woman of the Year Award | CNN

The University of Pennsylvania nominated swimmer Lia Thomas -- who has become the face of the debate on transgender women in sports -- for the 2022 NCAA Woman of the Year award.

www.cnn.com

FINA, the international swim federation, has ruled that transgender women who have gone through male puberty should not swim with women.

As the mother of a 14 year old male swimmer who is 6' and faster now than his 16 year old sister, I agree with FINA and not the NCAA.

I feel for people who want to compete at elite levels, but those levels have to be as "level" as possible. Lia is not on an even level with her now peers.

 

[Herdfan]

FINA, the international swim federation has ruled that transgender women who have gone through male puberty should not swim with women.

As the mother of a 14 year old male swimmer who is 6' and faster now than his 16 year old sister, I agree with FINA and not the NCAA.

I feel for people who want to compete at elite levels, but those levels have to be as "level" as possible. Lia is not on an even level with her now peers.

Add to that the NCAA failed to follow their own rules regarding this issue. Thomas would haven't been allowed to swim under USA Swimming's policy (they will be required to adopt FINA's new policy or risk losing the ability to send athletes to FINA competitions) and the NCAA was supposed to follow the sport's governing bodies regarding this issue.

But they caved.

And I expect your son to be faster. Based on what I remember, 11-12 is when the boys start really getting faster compared to the girls.

 

[mollyc]

I also think that nomination just is so defeating to women who have trained their entire lives with only female peers...then to have someone who competed for 20+ years as a male to be nominated....no. just no.

 

[Cmaier]

I also think that nomination just is so defeating to women who have trained their entire lives with only female peers...then to have someone who competed for 20+ years as a male to be nominated....no. just no.

My teenage daughter who is a competitive swimmer (albeit not one who will end up in the Olympics) loves the nomination.

 

[Renzatic]

My teenage daughter who is a competitive swimmer (albeit not one who will end up in the Olympics) loves the nomination.

This is one of those rare situations where both sides of the equation have entirely valid, equally incongruent points.

Do trans people deserve to live their lives as they see fit, as the gender they identify with? Yes, they do.

Does having trans women compete against cis women in sports present an inherent unfair advantage to the former? Yes, it does. Or at least can.

So in a situation where both sides have a point, and taking any stance on the issue inevitably means you're screwing someone else out of their right to X in some shape, form, or fashion, what can you do?

 

[Herdfan]

So in a situation where both sides have a point, and taking any stance on the issue inevitably means you're screwing someone else out of their right to X in some shape, form, or fashion, what can you do?

Yes and no. No one is saying they can't compete. They are just being told they can't compete in the division they want. Not really any different than a boxer, wrestler or MMA fighter being classified by weight. In HS, as a 210lb full back who would try and cut to 198lb to wrestle, it would have been much easier to just be allowed to compete at 198 anyway. But physically, that would not have been fair.

What I don't understand is why "Gender" matters. Why can't the divisions simply be born male and born female? Identify however you please, but you have to compete as the sex you were born with.

 

[Huntn]

FINA, the international swim federation, has ruled that transgender women who have gone through male puberty should not swim with women.

As the mother of a 14 year old male swimmer who is 6' and faster now than his 16 year old sister, I agree with FINA and not the NCAA.

I feel for people who want to compete at elite levels, but those levels have to be as "level" as possible. Lia is not on an even level with her now peers.

I believe in transgender rights, however my view regarding athletic events is that transgender individuals should not be allowed to bring advantages into the competition based on their previous gender status. Typically males have more muscle mass than females, and unless that can somehow be mitigated, then they should not compete, or maybe create a new transgender category of competition.

 

[Nycturne]

Typically males have more muscle mass than females, and unless that can somehow be mitigated, then they should not compete, or maybe create a new transgender category of competition.

Many of those differences are due to hormones. The SRY is a trigger for sexual differentiation, but it’s the hormones and the other genes activated by those that make the difference during development, and hormones are required to maintain many of them.

MTF hormone therapy and body changes: Expectations and more

Estrogen hormone therapy can cause physical, sexual, reproductive, and emotional changes. Learn more about how it affects the body here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

But it does make things complicated as some things are reversible under HRT given enough time, and others aren’t. Muscle mass (and the ease that someone can build it) and fat distribution are (although we don’t have good research other than general steroid research). Testosterone is a steroid after all. Skeletal growth doesn’t change as much after puberty though. But if someone does get access to blockers, and doesn’t have to go through two puberties, then these non-reversible effects don’t happen, and HRT is more effective on the whole.

Some of these effects are even specific to one hormone or another, lowering of the voice for example. A trans man will have their voice deepen on testosterone, but a trans woman will not have their voice affected on estrogen if they went through a masculine puberty first. Breasts grow because of estrogen and progesterone, but cannot be “undone” by testosterone.

There really isn’t a black and white simple answer here. Starting HRT after puberty or getting access to blockers, trans masc vs trans femme, it all plays out differently.

Why can't the divisions simply be born male and born female? Identify however you please, but you have to compete as the sex you were born with.

If your concern is testosterone giving folks an advantage, I don’t think making trans men compete with cis women will have the effect you think it will.

 

[Huntn]

Many of those differences are due to hormones. The SRY is a trigger for sexual differentiation, but it’s the hormones and the other genes activated by those that make the difference during development, and hormones are required to maintain many of them.

MTF hormone therapy and body changes: Expectations and more

Estrogen hormone therapy can cause physical, sexual, reproductive, and emotional changes. Learn more about how it affects the body here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

But it does make things complicated as some things are reversible under HRT given enough time, and others aren’t. Muscle mass (and the ease that someone can build it) and fat distribution are (although we don’t have good research other than general steroid research). Testosterone is a steroid after all. Skeletal growth doesn’t change as much after puberty though. But if someone does get access to blockers, and doesn’t have to go through two puberties, then these non-reversible effects don’t happen, and HRT is more effective on the whole.

Some of these effects are even specific to one hormone or another, lowering of the voice for example. A trans man will have their voice deepen on testosterone, but a trans woman will not have their voice affected on estrogen if they went through a masculine puberty first. Breasts grow because of estrogen and progesterone, but cannot be “undone” by testosterone.

There really isn’t a black and white simple answer here. Starting HRT after puberty or getting access to blockers, trans masc vs trans femme, it all plays out differently.



If your concern is testosterone giving folks an advantage, I don’t think making trans men compete with cis women will have the effect you think it will.

I think one suggestion was that anyone who switches genders before puberty is good to go, those who transition after puberty are not. Is that a fair approach?

 

[SuperMatt]

I think one suggestion was that anyone who switches genders before puberty is good to go, those who transition after puberty are not. Is that a fair approach?

In many states, it is illegal to transition before puberty. It’s also an ethical question: are children ready to make such a momentous decision that early in their life?

Therefore, these transgender bans for college athletics that require a fairly long time between transitioning and competing are de facto bans on transgender athletes competing.

 

[Joe]

I believe in transgender rights, however my view regarding athletic events is that transgender individuals should not be allowed to bring advantages into the competition based on their previous gender status. Typically males have more muscle mass than females, and unless that can somehow be mitigated, then they should not compete, or maybe create a new transgender category of competition.

Most people feel this way, but the Republicans go about it the wrong way. They make the most vile attacks towards transgender people. You can make your point without being a fucking vile human being.

 

[Herdfan]

I think one suggestion was that anyone who switches genders before puberty is good to go, those who transition after puberty are not. Is that a fair approach?

From the standpoint of fair competition, yes it is. That is FINA's position.

But at the same time, allowing a per-pubescent person to transition is not something I am comfortable with. We as a society think that adolescents at this age aren't mature enough to drive, vote, buy alcohol, buy weed, enter into contracts, etc. Yet we think they are mature enough to make a decision that will affect them the rest of their lives. I don't think so.