WWDC 2023 Thread

[Cmaier]

Contacts app now supports adding pronouns. I expect Ron Disantos and two techboards.net members to promptly boycott Apple.

 

[theorist9]

This is an ultra niche device. Customers who need to purchase one already know the cost of entry.


The alternative was probably no Mac Pro.

Most folks who require horsepower and expandability have already moved to Windows or Linux workstations. This is for users who specifically need macOS support with slots. At this point, the Apple Silicon Mac Pro is closer to the Xserve than a general purpose computer. (In that it targets a small sliver of the market, I don't mean specifically as a server.)

Concerning macOS Sonoma, the system requirements have changed:

View attachment 24180

Sonoma dropped support for the 2017 models of the iMac, MacBook Pro, and the 12-inch MacBook. Apple is quickly winding down support for Intel models. I expect the carnage to continue now that the transition is complete.

I'm guessing Sonoma (MacOS 14) will be the last OS for my 2019 iMac, which means support would end Oct 2026. That's 7 years of support (and 5 years on a current OS), so not too bad. I'm also guessing that MacOS 15 will be the last one for the 2020 iMacs, in which case those would also get 7 years. For the Intel Mac Pro, since it wasn't discontinued until today, I'd guess maybe MacOS 16, which would be 2028.

 

[throAU]

Drivers written by whom?

Mesa open source drivers for AMD and Intel already compile on arm, so drivers for these cards, for ARM already exist. This isn't a big problem, especially if Apple throw AMD some money for porting their Radeon drivers to macOS on Apple Silicon.

And yes, the unified memory is the future. But... just saying don't discount the ability to run PCIe cards just because the drivers aren't there (for macOS on Apple Silicon) on release.

This is by no means an insurmountable problem, and if you were to run Linux on the thing you could likely run an AMD or Intel GPU on it TODAY. Or at least with a minimal amount of recompilation/minor hacking.

 

[throAU]

What is most striking to me is how empty the motherboard is.

Very much suspect we'll see a 2024 model with either a larger spec of M3 than "Ultra" or multiple SOC sockets on the board. Rumour has it that the original plans didn't quite pan out this time around, and this machine was a "plan b".

 

[leman]

You’re probably correct, but a starting price of 7k, is tough for a machine that is going to get clobbered by a much cheaper pc.

Depends what you are after. If you just want a fast PC, sure, you can build one for roughly $2-2.5K, but then one can ask why do we even need all those Xeons and Threadrippers. If you look at the workstation market, M2 Ultra is not that terribly positioned. The CPU will be somewhere around the Xeon w7 2495X/3465X level (that alone is $2000-3000 part), add to it a workstation mainboard, a workstation GPU and you are already over $7k

Don't get me wrong, the Mac Pro is absolutely the least effort that could have been expected, I was hoping for something more exiting, but the balance of power didn't change that much.

 

[leman]

Rumour has it that the original plans didn't quite pan out this time around, and this machine was a "plan b".

Yeah, I believe this very much to be the case.

 

[dada_dave]

Mesa open source drivers for AMD and Intel already compile on arm, so drivers for these cards, for ARM already exist. This isn't a big problem, especially if Apple throw AMD some money for porting their Radeon drivers to macOS on Apple Silicon.

But why would they? and it isn’t just writing Metal 3 drivers, it’s support and maintenance for the small percentage of users who will buy a Mac Pro AND will go out and buy Radeons without that being an option to purchase when buying the computer, certainly not at launch - and if Apple were going to do that it would’ve been available at launch. The business case for doing it just isn’t there and I think it’s clear that even if there was one, Apple wants to move away from that world of discrete graphics/compute/video cards so would’ve only done it if they felt they had to in order to support current professionals whose software has not yet adapted. And again, in that case they would’ve made sure such cards were available for launch.

And yes, the unified memory is the future. But... just saying don't discount the ability to run PCIe cards just because the drivers aren't there (for macOS on Apple Silicon) on release.

I do … the probability of discrete graphics/compute/AI was always low and now it is even lower.

This is by no means an insurmountable problem, and if you were to run Linux on the thing you could likely run an AMD or Intel GPU on it TODAY. Or at least with a minimal amount of recompilation/minor hacking.

Actually no. You likely can’t - it is impossible unless Apple has changed its PCIe memory mapping for this product or even the wider M2 Max family (possible). For macOS and Windows, Apple’s AS PCIe memory setup works just fine for a discrete GPU, but for Linux it does not.

The case for mapping PCIe BARs as device memory on arm64 – random blog

threedots.ovh

There may be some uses that will work like CUDA, maybe, that treats everything as device memory (I had a conversation with the blog post author about this), but not wider graphics.

 

[dada_dave]

Depends what you are after. If you just want a fast PC, sure, you can build one for roughly $2-2.5K, but then one can ask why do we even need all those Xeons and Threadrippers. If you look at the workstation market, M2 Ultra is not that terribly positioned. The CPU will be somewhere around the Xeon w7 2495X/3465X level (that alone is $2000-3000 part), add to it a workstation mainboard, a workstation GPU and you are already over $7k

Don't get me wrong, the Mac Pro is absolutely the least effort that could have been expected, I was hoping for something more exiting, but the balance of power didn't change that much.

It’s terribly positioned relative to the Mac Studio and I agree the CPU performance even at that price point is okay-ish, but if what you want is GPU performance … not so much.

 

[dada_dave]

Yeah, I believe this very much to be the case.

The only question remains, were the original plans merely delayed … or cancelled? Hopefully, the former obviously.

 

[leman]

It’s terribly positioned relative to the Mac Studio

That for sure, although I am curious whether Mac Pro chip might be overclocked.

and I agree the CPU performance even at that price point is okay-ish, but if what you want is GPU performance … not so much.

I suppose it depends on what you want to do with the GPU. The full M2 Ultra should be in the ballpark of the Radeon Pro W7900, that alone is a $4k GPU. And Apple has a big advantage in available GPU memory, so it might be interesting to folks that need that kind of thing

The only question remains, were the original plans merely delayed … or cancelled? Hopefully, the former obviously.

Certainly cancelled for the M2 family, as to the future, who knows?

 

[dada_dave]

That for sure, although I am curious whether Mac Pro chip might be overclocked.



I suppose it depends on what you want to do with the GPU. The full M2 Ultra should be in the ballpark of the Radeon Pro W7900, that alone is a $4k GPU. And Apple has a big advantage in available GPU memory, so it might be interesting to folks that need that kind of thing



Certainly cancelled for the M2 family, as to the future, who knows?

The fact that Apple released something and now suggests to me they’ll stick with it so there’s some reason to be hopeful for M3 - just a little dimmer hope than before.

 

[leman]

Mesa open source drivers for AMD and Intel already compile on arm, so drivers for these cards, for ARM already exist. This isn't a big problem, especially if Apple throw AMD some money for porting their Radeon drivers to macOS on Apple Silicon.

If Apple wanted to, they could easily provide AMD GPU drivers for Apple Silicon. But they have no interest in doing so, so it will not happen.

 

[throAU]

If Apple wanted to, they could easily provide AMD GPU drivers for Apple Silicon. But they have no interest in doing so, so it will not happen.

Yeah i don’t think they will either.

Just disagree with people who seem to think it is impossible for whatever technical reason. Its technically trivial, just politically they aren’t interested in doing so right now.

I’ll remind people that Apple has metal support for various AMD GPUs on intel (so metal isn’t a problem), there’s no reason they couldn’t use them as an additional metal device - if they wanted to.

However, things can and sometimes do change politically in the future.

For example - You can guarantee Apple are still maintaining x64 macOS internally, even if they stop shipping it in a year or two. One to help catch bugs. Two… to remain agile and able to adapt as needs dictate in the future.

 

[leman]

Just disagree with people who seem to think it is impossible for whatever technical reason. Its technically trivial, just politically they aren’t interested in doing so right now.

I feel this might be partially my fault since I've been very adamant from the start that there will be no third-party GPU support on Apple Silicon. Of course, for me this was always the mater of policy, but I see how this could have been misinterpreted.

At the same time, there does seem to be a technical limitation with the current generation of M-series hardware, which is lack of support for PCIe space memory mappings a GPU driver would need. I remember Hector Martin talking about this. Not my area of expertise, so nothing I can comment on.

 

[Joelist]

WWDC announcements were just fine.

The 15 inch Air I can take or leave. The Studio updates were entirely as expected and just emphasize how the Studio line overlaps what used to be the Mac Pro area. The Mac Pro seems a little pricey but I think it also portends a new understanding of what the Pro is - it is not so much performance (since Studio has the same SOC) but expandability with special PCI cards.

The OS updates look nice overall and have something useful in every case.

Vision Pro is an interesting bird. It is way more expensive than existing headsets but also way more technologically advanced. I expect that as the tech in it matures the pricing will come down. The reaction out there reminds me of the scoffing reactions to the launch of Apple Watch only for it now to be a major seller and profit center. Watch this device as the tech matures - for example I expect the next version to not have a wire to a separate battery pack but rather more advanced battery tech will allow it to be built into the headstrap or other such.

 

[dada_dave]

I feel this might be partially my fault since I've been very adamant from the start that there will be no third-party GPU support on Apple Silicon. Of course, for me this was always the mater of policy, but I see how this could have been misinterpreted.

At the same time, there does seem to be a technical limitation with the current generation of M-series hardware, which is lack of support for PCIe space memory mappings a GPU driver would need. I remember Hector Martin talking about this. Not my area of expertise, so nothing I can comment on.

According to longhorn that only affects Linux. Apparently macOS and Windows always treated PCIe devices as having device memory. Also not my area of expertise.

The case for mapping PCIe BARs as device memory on arm64 – random blog

threedots.ovh

 

[Jimmyjames]

Things I didn't expect Apple to do, part 1.

 

[dada_dave]

Things I didn't expect Apple to do, part 1.

Mac - New Game Porting Toolkit is Wine

Introduced at the latest WWDC, it’s basically Apple Proton: Hopefully they support and develop it well!

techboards.net

Seems we follow similar people!

 

[Jimmyjames]

Mac - New Game Porting Toolkit is Wine

Introduced at the latest WWDC, it’s basically Apple Proton: Hopefully they support and develop it well!

techboards.net

Seems we follow similar people!

Seems so!

 

[Citysnaps]

The 15 inch Air I can take or leave. The Studio updates were entirely as expected and just emphasize how the Studio line overlaps what used to be the Mac Pro area. The Mac Pro seems a little pricey but I think it also portends a new understanding of what the Pro is - it is not so much performance (since Studio has the same SOC) but expandability with special PCI cards.

Totally agree overall. And many people need PCIe expandability and cannot (or don't want to) use expander chassis.