WWDC 2023 Thread

[Jimmyjames]

That’s pretty respectable performance.

Indeed. It’s a benchmark and may not represent real life performance, nonetheless it puts it around a rtx 4080.

 

[dada_dave]

Indeed. It’s a benchmark and may not represent real life performance, nonetheless it puts it around a rtx 4080.

Yeah I was looking at that

 

[Colstan]

I know that the Mac Pro has been getting all of the attention, a product that none of us are going to be purchasing, but the Mac Studio did get some changes other than an upgrade to the M2 generation.

The 2022 M1 Ultra acoustic performance:

The 2023 M2 Ultra acoustic performance:

There had been some criticism concerning the fan curve on the Mac Studio. From what I gather, it would run at an unnecessarily high RPM, even when completely idle. There were some complaints that the sound at the default RPM could be annoying for some users. There were also reports of a hissing sound coming from the Mac Studio. While it appeared to impact a minority of units shipped, it does seem to have been an issue for some Mac Studio owners. Some folks had no problems whatsoever, while others returned multiple units in an effort to find one which didn't bother them. Apple has clearly adjusted the cooling solution in the M2 models in some way, perhaps to address this reported problem. This is why I never purchase a version 1.0 of any product, and typically wait for revision 3.0. I'm sensitive to noise, particularly from computer fans, so I'm glad that Apple has addressed this, since I have been considering a Mac Studio as a future purchase.

 

[Colstan]

I took a few days to mull over WWDC, having let the hype and irrational exuberance of the moment pass, to see if I still had the same reaction in hindsight. I've made it no secret that the only Apple device that I care about is the Mac. I don't own or use any of their other products. I've always been a traditional desktop computer user and that's where I put my focus. Since I switched in 2005, the Mac has been both a tool and a hobby for me. I've put all of my time, energy, and resources into the Mac. While I'm not locked into any vendor ecosystem, most of my digital "life" is wrapped up in iCloud. Hence, Apple's integration of hardware/software/services is what appeals to me; it tickles my OCD in all of the right neurons.

In the post-Jobs era, there have been two WWDC conferences that had a substantial impact on the Mac. The first was in 2020, when Apple announced the switch to Apple Silicon. This was exciting, but also brought a great many questions. Around that same time, I had started getting back into playing computer games. As Apple laid the foundation for the transition, they killed off 32-bit support and deprecated OpenGL. This impacted some older gaming titles. With Apple Silicon, Boot Camp was eliminated and developers were clearly being pushed to use Metal for future games. This left a lot of uncertainty concerning gaming on the Mac, if there was a future at all. It seemed like Apple would annually show off Shadow of the Tomb Raider, declare gaming on the Mac a success, and then move to the iDevices section of the presentation.

For the past three years I've been living a dual-computing life, so to speak. I've been planning both a new custom gaming PC in parallel with my next Mac purchase. I didn't want to switch to PC, but given the uncertain state of Mac gaming, I may have had no alternative. Five years ago, I wouldn't have been able to tell you what Intel, Nvidia, and AMD had on the market, other than whatever was shipping in the latest Macs. Now, I know the roadmap for the PC companies for years to come. I can tell you all about the CPU and GPU product lines, prices, and what specs I would have in a custom gaming PC. I know all of the necessary tools and settings to de-bloat and optimize Windows for gaming. I've spent three years compiling that inside of my head and could pull the trigger at any time.

Then WWDC 2023 happened, which featured the second substantial set of announcements for the Mac. Apple finished the transition, giving us a complete picture of the entire Apple Silicon Mac line. They announced new tools for game developers. In fact, gaming was a larger focus of the macOS presentation than I recall it ever having been. In magnitude and importance, it certainly seemed to be. I didn't comment on it earlier, because I wanted more details. Apple's solution is not meant for end-users, even though nerds have found a way to hack it. I prefer Apple's approach of promoting native titles over half-assed ports using a compatibility layer. I've tried using CrossOver, Parallels, and various WINE solutions, and always found them to be lacking. When it comes to gaming on the Mac, I'm in the "go native or go home" camp. Thus far, early signs show that Apple is having success at courting developers to make Mac native games.

Another concern I had was that Apple would go crawling back to AMD for high-end GPUs. That's why I was looking closely at the Mac Pro, to see if it would feature third-party graphics card support. I won't be purchasing a Mac Pro, but a lower-tier Mac desktop. That would likely mean that an eGPU would be the only option for high-end graphics, and having used an eGPU with my Intel Mac mini for many years now, an eGPU is squarely in the "never again" category, having had so many issues with it. I've previously said that if Apple has confidence in its GPUs, then so shall I.

Which brings me back to my reaction to WWDC. I was initially thrilled with the result. Apple completed the transition to Apple Silicon, macOS looks to be a stability release, and they're doing a massive push to get major game studios to release games on the Mac. In retrospect, I'm just as pleased now as I was immediately following WWDC.

There are new games in the pipe with likely more on the way. As @Cmaier has said for over a year now, Apple is serious about gaming, and that is clear. I won't be forced into using an eGPU; Apple is serious about their own unified model. The only thing I am waiting on is hardware ray tracing support with the M-series, but that's almost certainly a given, as @leman has pointed out.

As a result, I'm pleased to say that I am firmly staying on the Apple ranch, and that my next desktop computer will be a Mac. My 2018 Intel Mac mini is quickly aging out, I don't know exactly what I'll be replacing it with, but it will be another Mac, not a PC. My three-year flirtation with building a custom PC is henceforth at an end.

I wandered over to look at some of the Computex coverage for the latest PC parts, then realized that I don't care, and moved on. It's a relief, because I truly enjoy my Mac, being both a tool and a hobby. A PC would be a tool, one which I wouldn't enjoy using, and I really, really didn't want to build a PC and be stuck using Windows. Fortunately, I couldn't have fantasy booked a better WWDC and the future of the Mac looks better than ever.

Finally, despite TechBoards being a place welcome to all things technology, our members are still heavily Apple centric. I admit that it would have been quite awkward being a contributor and moderator here, yet not owning any Apple products. That means that my contributions here should remain consistent. Whether you consider that to be a good thing or bad thing depends upon one's view of my contributions! The one exception is going to be in PC hardware; since I am no longer considering building a PC, my contributions concerning PC hardware and Windows will be down considerably.

I do feel for Colstan's situation, though.

As I stated above, I'm really chuffed about the future of Apple Silicon and the Mac. My next computer will likely be a base Mac Studio with upgraded graphics, or a high-end Mac mini. The only question is what model is going to replace my 2018 Intel Mac mini as it is quickly aging out. Barring some completely unforeseen event, I'll be staying with the fruit company for my computing needs. I spent many months grousing about the situation, everyone here was good to put up with my bellyaching, but after what I consider to be a stellar WWDC, I'm optimistic about the Mac moving forward.

 

[Jimmyjames]

I know that the Mac Pro has been getting all of the attention, a product that none of us are going to be purchasing, but the Mac Studio did get some changes other than an upgrade to the M2 generation.

The 2022 M1 Ultra acoustic performance:

View attachment 24252

The 2023 M2 Ultra acoustic performance:

View attachment 24253

There had been some criticism concerning the fan curve on the Mac Studio. From what I gather, it would run at an unnecessarily high RPM, even when completely idle. There were some complaints that the sound at the default RPM could be annoying for some users. There were also reports of a hissing sound coming from the Mac Studio. While it appeared to impact a minority of units shipped, it does seem to have been an issue for some Mac Studio owners. Some folks had no problems whatsoever, while others returned multiple units in an effort to find one which didn't bother them. Apple has clearly adjusted the cooling solution in the M2 models in some way, perhaps to address this reported problem. This is why I never purchase a version 1.0 of any product, and typically wait for revision 3.0. I'm sensitive to noise, particularly from computer fans, so I'm glad that Apple has addressed this, since I have been considering a Mac Studio as a future purchase.

Wow, this reduction in noise looks great. I can’t wait for the M3 Studio!

 

[MEJHarrison]

There had been some criticism concerning the fan curve on the Mac Studio.

I recall complaints. But I've never once heard mine. Probably because I'm an old fart loosing my hearing, but regardless, I brag all the time (just this morning in fact) about how I've never once heard the fans on my Studio.

 

[Colstan]

I recall complaints. But I've never once heard mine. Probably because I'm an old fart loosing my hearing, but regardless, I brag all the time (just this morning in fact) about how I've never once heard the fans on my Studio.

If you believe the poll over at MacRumors, about 20% of Mac Studio owners report some sort of whine or hiss coming from their units. It's definitely not a majority of users. As someone who has sensitive hearing (as in medical condition sensitive) this would have been a concern about purchasing a Mac Studio. Apple appears to be addressing these concerns, and I would imagine any issues should be resolved by the time the M3 makes it to the Mac Studio, which is the likely generation when I'd make the jump to Apple Silicon.

Speaking of MacRumors, I've already dialed back my participation there, but now that I'm no longer in my "feeding phase" of researching both PC and Mac options, I have even less reason to visit there. One of my favorite posts was in response to the main page article about completing the transition to Apple Silicon.

This is peak MacRumors. This guy says that he hasn't purchased a Mac since 2012. Since then, he openly admits to pirating macOS to make a Hackintosh, without giving Apple a single shekel for the work they put into the platform. This poster has given back absolutely nothing to the Mac ecosystem, other than his valuable opinion on the MacRumors forum, yet he says that "Apple is addicted to greed". That is MacRumors logic taken to its ultimate conclusion.

I spent months griping about Apple completing the transition and wanting improvements on gaming. I gave Apple heat because I care and want them to succeed. Lo and behold, Apple did exactly what I had hoped for. Therefore, the fruit company will continue to get my business. This guy is angry with Apple because he won't be able to pirate their software anymore, because Apple Silicon makes Hackintosh builds impossible.

 

[Jimmyjames]

If you believe the poll over at MacRumors, about 20% of Mac Studio owners report some sort of whine or hiss coming from their units. It's definitely not a majority of users. As someone who has sensitive hearing (as in medical condition sensitive) this would have been a concern about purchasing a Mac Studio. Apple appears to be addressing these concerns, and I would imagine any issues should be resolved by the time the M3 makes it to the Mac Studio, which is the likely generation when I'd make the jump to Apple Silicon.

Speaking of MacRumors, I've already dialed back my participation there, but now that I'm no longer in my "feeding phase" of researching both PC and Mac options, I have even less reason to visit there. One of my favorite posts was in response to the main page article about completing the transition to Apple Silicon.

View attachment 24254

This is peak MacRumors. This guy says that he hasn't purchased a Mac since 2012. Since then, he openly admits to pirating macOS to make a Hackintosh, without giving Apple a single shekel for the work they put into the platform. This poster has given back absolutely nothing to the Mac ecosystem, other than his valuable opinion on the MacRumors forum, yet he says that "Apple is addicted to greed". That is MacRumors logic taken to its ultimate conclusion.

I spent months griping about Apple completing the transition and wanting improvements on gaming. I gave Apple heat because I care and want them to succeed. Lo and behold, Apple did exactly what I had hoped for. Therefore, the fruit company will continue to get my business. This guy is angry with Apple because he won't be able to pirate their software anymore, because Apple Silicon makes Hackintosh builds impossible.

I should be mature enough not to get upset by these people, but they boil my blood. Such nonsense.

 

[theorist9]

M2 Ultra gfxbench results. Between 314fps to 331fps Aztec 4K

GFXBench - Unified cross-platform 3D graphics benchmark database

The first unified cross-platform 3D graphics benchmark database for comparing Android, iOS, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 and Windows RT capable devices based on graphics processing power.

gfxbench.com

Seems about what you'd expect based on the difference between the M2 and M1 Max:
M2 Max/M1 Max = 180/140 = +29%
M2 Ultra/M1 Ultra = 330/260 = +27%
.... though this is based on the highest of just two scores posted thus far for the M2 Ultra; for the others I did an eyeball average of the top scores, and we don't know if 330 fps will be representative of the highest scores for this new device.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Speaking of MacRumors, I've already dialed back my participation there...

I'm still a member in good standing there. I still hit the main page daily. But I stay out of the forums. I dive in maybe once every few months. I did just recently to learn more about installing Sonoma. Wanted to see if there were major issues. I don't think I've even logged in since they closed PRSI. It's just too toxic.

 

[B01L]

My next computer will likely be a base Mac Studio with upgraded graphics, or a high-end Mac mini. The only question is what model...

For the same price (US$1999) as a slightly upgraded M2 Pro Mac mini, the base M2 Max Mac Studio gives you:

• eleven more GPU cores
• double the UMA bandwidth
• two USB-c ports
• SDXC card slot
• 10Gb Ethernet

 

[Cmaier]

I'm still a member in good standing there. I still hit the main page daily. But I stay out of the forums. I dive in maybe once every few months. I did just recently to learn more about installing Sonoma. Wanted to see if there were major issues. I don't think I've even logged in since they closed PRSI. It's just too toxic.

I see that some people over there are still looking for me, and one of them raised a conspiracy theory that i was actually someone else. Neat.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know how Amd/Nvidia gpus scale? M2 Max to Ultra scales by 83%. Some talk about that being poor. I’d love to know how the competition does but I find their model numbers and specs confusing.

 

[Citysnaps]

If you believe the poll over at MacRumors, about 20% of Mac Studio owners report some sort of whine or hiss coming from their units. It's definitely not a majority of users. As someone who has sensitive hearing

I don't know what to make of that 20%. I wouldn't be shocked if a good chunk of that is motivated by Apple hate.

When I'm sitting at my desk it's 30 inches from my ears to the back of my Mac Studio. I don't hear anything. If I stand behind my desk (the end juts out from a wall) and crouch down with my ears about a foot away from the back of the computer, I hear a slight hiss (kind of like random noise - it's not tonal).

If I did hear that sitting at my desk it wouldn't bother me - it's something easy to tune out.

Still... it's nice that whatever the noise power was, Apple is making it less.

 

[theorist9]

For the same price (US$1999) as a slightly upgraded M2 Pro Mac mini, the base M2 Max Mac Studio gives you:

• eleven more GPU cores
• double the UMA bandwidth
• two USB-c ports
• SDXC card slot
• 10Gb Ethernet

Yeah, that's interesting. For the same CPU cores/RAM/storage, they're identically priced, and the M2 Max Mac Studio gives all the extra goodies you mentioned. It seems the only advantages of the M2 Pro Mini are (a) its more compact size; and (b) the option to save $300 if you don't need much GPU power, by downgrading to a 16-core GPU, and/or save $400 by downgrading to 16 GB RAM.

 

[dada_dave]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know how Amd/Nvidia gpus scale? M2 Max to Ultra scales by 83%. Some talk about that being poor. I’d love to know how the competition does but I find their model numbers and specs confusing.

It depends, especially since benchmarks are generally written to be small/fast to execute, higher performance GPUs can simply fail to be given enough work by these benchmarks.

There are also some benchmarks that don’t scale linearly on GPUs o matter what. Many, if not most, do because of the parallel nature of the work but not all work GPUs do is embarrassingly parallel.

I remember the M1 Max to Ultra scaling not being great relative to their peers, haven’t checked for M2. Too much effort right now to be honest.

 

[Colstan]

For the same price (US$1999) as a slightly upgraded M2 Pro Mac mini, the base M2 Max Mac Studio gives you:

• eleven more GPU cores
• double the UMA bandwidth
• two USB-c ports
• SDXC card slot
• 10Gb Ethernet

Using my sister's education discount, I could get a base M2 Pro Mac mini for $1,200 USD. After seeing the VRAM fiasco over in PC land, I'd want at least 32GB of system memory. That would bump the Mac mini up to $1,559.

With Apple apparently addressing any noise concerns with the Mac Studio's cooling fans, I consider that the most likely option. I'd be looking at a starting price of $1,800. Add in the upgraded graphics and that comes to $1,979.

So, for $420 I'd get the full M2 Max die, twice the bandwidth, additional ports, and a substantially more robust cooling system. Assuming the noise issue has been fully addressed, I couldn't see myself opting for anything other than the Mac Studio. Of course, the equation could change with the M3 generation, which is what I'll be likely looking at, but that will probably remain my best option. At this point, hardware ray tracing is the only feature that I'm waiting on.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Geekbench 6 Metal scores for the M2 Ultra = 220674

Mac14,14 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Mac14,14 with an Apple M2 Ultra processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Geekbench 6 cpu score = 2809 Single Core, 21531 Multi Core.

Mac14,14 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Mac14,14 with an Apple M2 Ultra processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Jimmyjames]

So the scores seem pretty competitive overall. A RTX 4080 gets around 240000 GB 6 and I believe has 48 Tflops of computer. The M2 Ultra has 27 Tflops and gets 220000. So around 90% of the performance I think. Unless I misunderstood how Nvidia calculates their Tflops!

The Nvidia scores are for OpenCL, which give the best scores. Vulcan has awful compute performance seemingly. A 4080 gets 200000

 

[Aaronage]

Geekbench 6 Metal scores for the M2 Ultra = 220674

Mac14,14 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Mac14,14 with an Apple M2 Ultra processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Geekbench 6 cpu score = 2809 Single Core, 21531 Multi Core.

Mac14,14 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Mac14,14 with an Apple M2 Ultra processor.

browser.geekbench.com

That’s pretty great. Similar Metal performance to a 6900 XT (300W typical board power).
M2 Ultra will probably only use around ~105W in graphics workloads.

Edit; Metal benchmark chart for comparison https://browser.geekbench.com/metal-benchmarks