Russia-Ukraine

[AG_PhamD]

It’s not very surprising that the Patriot air defense system, designed in the newer generations to target ballistic missiles, shot down Russia’s Kinzhal missiles. The Kinzhal is effectively an air launched ballistic missile and most ballistic missiles travel at hypersonic speeds as it is. That said, shooting down ballistic missiles is an impressive feat of engineering and technology.

In other news, Russia claims to have “destroyed” a “Patriot system”.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html

It sounds pretty unlikely an entire Patriot system (battery) could be taken out given it being a distributed system over large area. If anything it sounds like one of the launchers was damaged or destroyed. I don’t it’s been reported how many launchers Ukraine received, but a battery can apparently accommodate up to 8 launchers.

I guess whether the system was hit or hit by debris is another consideration. The Patriot system obviously has a big target on its back for Russia and I suppose it’s better for Russia to waste their missile inventory on trying to take out air defenses than targeting critical infrastructure or civilians.

 

[Citysnaps]

That said, shooting down ballistic missiles is an impressive feat of engineering and technology.

Nice to see the Patriot system is being battle-tested; especially against Russian missiles. No doubt the US is closely monitoring all aspects of all Patriot engagements against Russian missiles, and taking data to further refine Patriot performance. A win for Ukraine and a win for the US.

 

[dada_dave]

It’s not very surprising that the Patriot air defense system, designed in the newer generations to target ballistic missiles, shot down Russia’s Kinzhal missiles. The Kinzhal is effectively an air launched ballistic missile and most ballistic missiles travel at hypersonic speeds as it is. That said, shooting down ballistic missiles is an impressive feat of engineering and technology.

In other news, Russia claims to have “destroyed” a “Patriot system”.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html

It sounds pretty unlikely an entire Patriot system (battery) could be taken out given it being a distributed system over large area. If anything it sounds like one of the launchers was damaged or destroyed. I don’t it’s been reported how many launchers Ukraine received, but a battery can apparently accommodate up to 8 launchers.

I guess whether the system was hit or hit by debris is another consideration. The Patriot system obviously has a big target on its back for Russia and I suppose it’s better for Russia to waste their missile inventory on trying to take out air defenses than targeting critical infrastructure or civilians.

Reportedly the damage was so minimal that the system was already back up and running yesterday. Whether it was damaged by falling debris or a misfire is still unknown except to those who know.


Other news: it’s definitely being implied that the Ukrainians snuck a Patriot system to the border, somehow hid both the physical evidence of its being there and the Russians somehow missed the massive radar signal despite the presence on 2 EW helicopters and shot the 4 craft down.

Training Ukrainians on F16s won’t take that long (4 months) and multiple countries are talking about western fighters for Ukraine now with the US saying it won’t block export of F16s. So far stopping short of providing them itself.

Pentagon found an extra $3billion dollars to cover additional equipment claiming previous equipment was overvalued. Which it most definitely still is since even for older equipment we were (are?) charging ourselves for the original cost of the equipment and not what it’s worth today. I don’t think that’s what they’re talking about here.

 

[Citysnaps]

Other news: it’s definitely being implied that the Ukrainians snuck a Patriot system to the border, somehow hid both the physical evidence of its being there and the Russians somehow missed the massive radar signal despite the presence on 2 EW helicopters and shot the 4 craft down.

Not an expert on Patriot... but both the acquisition radar on the ground, and the radar in the missile are passive electronically scanned arrays. Meaning they (acquisition and missile radars) do not emit RF energy to illuminate a hostile target (and thus become a target themselves). They're bistatic/multistatic relying on cooperating or non-cooperating RF energy sources located elsewhere (could be microwave links or other sources far away) to illuminate a potential hostile target.

I imagine (pure conjecture on my part) after a target is acquired by the passive scanned ground radar (which can probably track dozens/hundreds of hostile missiles simultaneously), and a Patriot missile is released, there's a low-probability-of-intercept spread spectrum data link that directs the Patriot missile to the general area of the hostile missile, at which point the Patriot missile passive radar takes over directing it to the hostile missile for the kill.

Or something like that.

 

[dada_dave]

Not an expert on Patriot... but both the acquisition radar on the ground, and the radar in the missile are passive electronically scanned arrays. Meaning they (acquisition and missile radars) do not emit RF energy to illuminate a hostile target (and thus become a target themselves). They're bistatic/multistatic relying on cooperating or non-cooperating RF energy sources located elsewhere (could be microwave links or other sources far away) to illuminate a potential hostile target.

I imagine (pure conjecture on my part) after a target is acquired by the passive scanned ground radar (which can probably track dozens/hundreds of hostile missiles simultaneously), and a Patriot missile is released, there's a low-probability-of-intercept spread spectrum data link that directs the Patriot missile to the general area of the hostile missile, at which point the Patriot missile passive radar takes over directing it to the hostile missile for the kill.

Or something like that.

That’s not actually how it works - the passive vs active part is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion:

MIM-104 Patriot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Passive electronically scanned array - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Active electronically scanned array - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Basically the radar is sending out a beam but instead of a rotating dish it’s using a transmitter that is connected to many small antennae. This allows a narrow beam that can move quickly. The difference with an “active” system is the active system has a bunch of small transmitters for every antennae allowing for even more flexibility. Supposedly the next version of the radar the 65-A the A will stand for active. I’ll be honest I don’t know why they call it passive versus active. But it isn’t because the dish doesn’t send out signals. It does. And even if it didn’t, some SAM systems have multiple radars with different roles (and you are right that the Patriot system can indeed integrate multiple signals from multiple sources), some of them are active somewhere - basically someone has to emit the signal and that signal can be detected. The “active” scanning radar can ironically help with this as it can send out multiple frequencies and thus disguise the telltale signal of a radar sending out a massive signal at single frequency.

 

[Yoused]

Basically the radar is sending out a beam but instead of a rotating dish it’s using a transmitter that is connected to many small antennae. This allows a narrow beam that can move quickly.

This is kind of inaccurate, though. Each antenna produces a wide beam. By phasing, you can interfere a stronger targeted signal, and you can interpret the echo by the order in which it is received (the same way 2 eyes combine to make 3D vision), but overall, it is never anything like a "narrow beam".

 

[dada_dave]

This is kind of inaccurate, though. Each antenna produces a wide beam. By phasing, you can interfere a stronger targeted signal, and you can interpret the echo by the order in which it is received (the same way 2 eyes combine to make 3D vision), but overall, it is never anything like a "narrow beam".

It’s an oversimplification but the effect of the interference is indeed to form beams with radiation increasing in the desired direction and suppressed in undesired directions. More advanced versions can effectively form multiple beams and track multiple targets.

Phased array - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[dada_dave]

Ukrainian pilots to be trained on F-16s.


Unclear who will deliver them and when but this will be faster than after the war is long over.

 

[Citysnaps]

That’s not actually how it works - the passive vs active part is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion:

There is a mode where it can operate bistatically. I wouldn't be surprised if that was employed and greatly helped the radar subsystem from not being targeted. Another possibility, if not operating bistatically, would be to employ spread spectrum, intentionally widening the transmitted signal bandwidth with a pn sequence to the point where it would fall into the noise floor and could not be detected by others .

This is kind of inaccurate, though. Each antenna produces a wide beam. By phasing, you can interfere a stronger targeted signal,

Spot-on - the result of constructive and destructive interference produced by the amount of phase shift introduced into each element of the array. For both receiving and transmitting. And as the phase shift in each element in the planar array can be independently and rapidly changed, multiple independent beams can be produced and swept in both azimuth and elevation across the planar array, and used to track multiple targets (guessing a dozen or more).

Sonar arrays in submarines operate in the same manner (beamforming), though they rarely go active not wanting to be detected (and potentially targeted).

 

[dada_dave]

There is a mode where it can operate bistatically. I wouldn't be surprised if that was employed and greatly helped the radar subsystem from not being targeted. Another possibility, if not operating bistatically, would be to employ spread spectrum, intentionally widening the transmitted signal bandwidth with a pn sequence to the point where it would fall into the noise floor and could not be detected by others .


Spot-on - the result of constructive and destructive interference produced by the amount of phase shift introduced into each element of the array. For both receiving and transmitting. And as the phase shift in each element in the planar array can be independently and rapidly changed, multiple independent beams can be produced and swept in both azimuth and elevation across the planar array, and used to track multiple targets (guessing a dozen or more).

Sonar arrays in submarines operate in the same manner (beamforming), though they rarely go active not wanting to be detected (and potentially targeted).

Even operating bistatically something has to be acting as an emitter. It has be receiving signals from something. That emitter should be detectable - I’m not sure if radars can employ a spread spectrum like that? Well if I understand correctly what you’re talking about the active phase scan radars might. I don’t think passive phase scan radars can.

 

[Citysnaps]

Even operating bistatically something has to be acting as an emitter. It has be receiving signals from something.

That's true - and it can be cooperative or uncooperative. And a great distance away if the elevation is high enough. I suppose it could even be in Russian territory (and they would never know it is aiding the Ukrainians).

 

[dada_dave]

That's true - and it can be cooperative or uncooperative. And a great distance away if the elevation is high enough. I suppose it could even be in Russian territory (and they would never know it is aiding the Ukrainians).

True and that would be hilarious if they managed to use a Russian signal against them that way.

 

[Citysnaps]

Some promising technology on the horizon:

THOR Microwave Anti-Drone System Downs Swarms In Test

The demonstration pitted the service's high-power microwave THOR system against a "real-world" drone swarm simulation.

www.thedrive.com

 

[dada_dave]

 

[dada_dave]

Free Russian Legion attacking into Belgorod:


Revenge is a dish best served cold …

 

[Yoused]

Free Russian Legion attacking into Belgorod

 

[dada_dave]

Indeed an update on the meme:

 

[Edd]

What’s Putin’s angle with these sanctions on Trump’s political enemies (Seth Meyers, for fuck’s sake)?

I can’t tell if he’s trying to hurt Trump, help him, or has nothing to do with him (unlikely). What’s the point?

 

[dada_dave]

What’s Putin’s angle with these sanctions on Trump’s political enemies (Seth Meyers, for fuck’s sake)?

I can’t tell if he’s trying to hurt Trump, help him, or has nothing to do with him (unlikely). What’s the point?

I think more a signal to the Trump faithful that Russia stands with Trump so when they take power they’ll be reminded who their friends are. Also the latest list smacks more than a little of desperation: less about logic, more about flailing.

Edit: also a lot of their propaganda is about projection and sometimes more about internal consumption: they’re trying to position Jan 6th and related events as a pro-democracy “color” revolution in the US (because Trump won don’t you know?) - to show how we suppress dissent too. That this is laughable is almost the point as it proves to those who buy into it that they control reality - the big lie as it were. This may also play a part.

 

[Citysnaps]