So I got Covid 😒

[fischersd]

It's still annoying if you did all the recommended things including a booster but ended up having to miss part of the holidays or take time off work because of a variant infection.

There's talk now of our having to adjust to a "new normal" of dealing flexibly with variants of this thing for some time, and just soldiering on through them, rather than treating every widespread variant as a potential instance of LockDownAgain time.

I get that, since it's clear there are limits on public willingness to observe lockdowns and reversions to full remote learning, etc. No one understands yet though what the accommodations to lingering variants might amount to, and we don't know how long boosters will hold up.

If we're lucky maybe it won't be worse than wondering "Gee should I take my umbrella today or not" and just tack into that checklist "..and a mask..."?

Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.

NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?

 

[lizkat]

Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.

NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?

Yah I think there are still a lot of states that have low vaccination rates even now. My upstate county is experiencing a spike again, and it's not from college kids since the SUNY colleges in the region have applied assorted rules and protocols to minimize infection to extent possible, it seems to be about locals who aren't vaccinated, and/or omicron behavior re vaccination break-through. The politics here are conservative, however, and our vax rate may reflect a lag related to that.

Or, it's possible some of it is from an earlier lack of vaccines in rural areas, plus lack of public transport for seniors and then a lot of people just putting it on the back burner after initially spending time trying to get an appointment online in the early crush. Many are elderly, they don't go out much, they don't have many people in and the people they do have in are vaccinated, so... [so now yeah they're becoming omicron stats].

The thing is, now you can practically step out in the road and hold your arm out for a vaccination, so there's really no excuse not to have arranged for one if there's no medical reason to avoid it, and those are pretty rare.

 

[User.45]

Yep, but the rub is - any areas where the fully vaccinated rate is not approaching 100% will still have a lot of severe symptoms and deaths.

NY Times says the US double-vaccination rate is still 62%?

That's for the entire population. It's ~88% for people 65 and older. The big confounder is kids being unvaccinated.
The hesitancy of people to vaccinate their kids is mind boggling though.
My kids are too young to be eligible and I'll get them vaccinated the second they are eligible as my household's risk is much more affected by them being unvaccinated than my wife or I getting extra vaccine doses.

 

[Thomas Veil]

The hesitancy of people to vaccinate their kids is mind boggling though.

My son in law is that way. He reads stuff about kids getting blood clots and he kinda closes off to the idea.

 

[Eric]

My son in law is that way. He reads stuff about kids getting blood clots and he kinda closes off to the idea.

Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.

All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.

 

[Thomas Veil]

call their doctor

Always good advice, but I think people are hesitant right now ‘cause doctors are, well, kinda busy.

 

[User.45]

Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.

All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.

It didn't take long to see that the side effect profile of vaccines is similar to the infection but many thousand times lower in likelihood and many times lower in severity if occurs at all. The pediatric trials took so much longer to finish is because 1) we first established safety in adults, 2) the safety requirements are much higher, and the lower risk/benefit ratios require larger sample sizes and/or longer surveillance. So once the data is established, it means that vaccinating a population is not only safe but effective "beyond the reasonable doubt".

 

[AG_PhamD]

Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.

All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.

Agreed, there is a faction of the left very much into “natural medicine” that is highly against vaccinations and pharmaceuticals in general. While I think right-wing make up a much larger segment overall at the moment, here in MA (a very liberal place), I do see probably almost as many liberal antivaxxers as I do conservative. Prior to COVID, some of the least vaccinated places in terms of children were wealthy, blue suburbs.

There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population. While it’s absolutely true Black people have often been the uninformed subjects of totally unethical experimentation and there are numerous examples of this, the reality is they are not alone. Mentally ill, orphaned, and incarcerated individuals of all were also subjected to unethical experimentation, often without consent/knowledge. Americans of all races in the general population have been illegally and unknowingly experimented on in projects like MK Ultra as well as studies to judge the effects of direct plutonium exposure. Though probably the least unethical of unethical studies, in the 50’s there were government programs where stillborn babies’ and dead children’s tissue and bones were acquired without family knowledge to test for radioisotope exposure from nuclear tests. So the history of unethical human experimentation is pretty universal in American History. And that’s not to minimize the fact that often minorities, especially black, were targeted because of their reduced social standing.

One of my worst experiences was an internship at a children’s hospital- the worst of the worst was a young boy with meningitis that likely would have never occurred had had his course of normal childhood vaccinations. As a result of the infection, this otherwise perfectly healthy boy received severe and permanent neurological damage, never to have a remotely normal life again. Very sad.

In dealing with the COVID anti-vaxx crowd IRL I try to be as compassionate and persuasive as possible. Treating people negatively only creates resentment and further resistance. Listening to their concerns openly without judgement and responding is a must. When dealing with adults on the fence about the shot I find the best tactic is to remind them their risk of serious COVID complications or death is substantially higher than the extremely rare chance of a vaccine adverse reaction. I remind them almost 4 BILLLION people have been vaccinated. I ask them if they or someone they know have ever had long term side effects from a vaccine. Sometimes I remind them that in poorer parts of the world, people would do anything to be able to get vaccinated, accept the gifts you are given.

Dealing with parents decision to vax their children is much more complicated. Even if they agree to vaccinate themselves, they won’t necessarily make the same decision for their child.

 

[AG_PhamD]

A week after Thanksgiving I came down with symptoms in what seemed like out of nowhere. I lost all sense of taste and smell within about 36 hours. Now I can't prove anything but it's highly likely I got it over Thanksgiving from my either my brother or someone in his entire unvaccinated family which includes young children which all but one I believe are old enough for the vaccine. My brother only got the vaccine very recently because he was forced to because of a mandate. Otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have. Why this stupidity? Because Trump and all the fucking right wing disinformation. Him and my mom are huge Trumpets and have been completely brainwashed about the vaccine and Covid in general. Him, my SIL, and at least one of their kids got it along with me and my dad. This makes me beyond angry. The people that believe this disinformation don't seem to realize that this shit affects everyone around them and not just them. I'm boosted and still caught it, though pretty mild compared to how bad it can be. I still don't feel 100% and my taste is still fucked up. Get your heads out of Trump's ass and do the fucking responsible thing. Is it really worth risking your family's health?

Sorry to hear you caught the COVID. The reality is you can do all the right things and still catch it.

Most people I know with omicron are at least double vaccinated, many of them boosted. In fact, I know two people personally who are had COVID, are fully vaccinated + boosted, and caught COVID a second time.

Vaccinated people can obviously catch it, as you have, and spread it. Considering how transmissible omicron is, it’s possible you could have potentially caught it anywhere.

I haven’t seen a solid number on vaccine efficacy against infection, but I’ve seen numbers around 20%.

Somehow my wife and I have gone through this entire pandemic without having COVID, at least to our knowledge, despite both working in healthcare. I had a cold in late Dec 2019 but an antibody test some months later, which came back negative. I’ve basically been tested 2x a week since PCR tests became available. As healthcare providers we were some of the first to get vaccine, about a week before Christmas 2020. Lately, huge numbers of my coworkers have been out with COVID. It makes me think that the vaccine, at least in some people, does have some efficacy against omicron infection. I’ve always had a very good immune system though and rarely catch colds.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Right, it's not just Conservatives, there are many people who are are just afraid of it because of stuff like this as well. My friend and his mom got it, she died and he survived but he was nervous about it interacting with medication he was taking for a skin condition, even though the doctor told him it was safe.

All we can do is try to educate people, blood clots are rare and when you factor in tens of millions of doses it's bound to coincide with other illnesses as well. One friend of mine in the medical field works with those who are hesitant and tries to convince them to call their doctor and take whatever advice they give for reassurance, she's had some success there.

The risk of blood clots as well as thrombocytopenia (low platelet count) exist with the vaccines. That said, the risk also exists with COVID infection.

For example, in a study of 30k people- some unvaccinated, some with Pfizer, some with AZ vax- the Pfizer vaccine resulted in ~140 ischemic strokes. Meanwhile, in the unvaccinated, there were 1700 strokes.

Whether it be clots, thrombocytopenia, myocarditis, the risk from infections is substantially greater from infection than vaccination.

I think this whole pandemic has highlighted the much of public’s lack of scientific and medical literacy. It’s a problem and these are the consequences.

 

[SuperMatt]

There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.

You think black people need ”the media” to remind them of racist medical experiments? These stories are passed down for generations.

Seriously, blaming the media for this is way off-base.

It’s also the same argument used by those banning books. “If we tell kids about racism in history, the white kids will feel guilty and the black kids will feel like victims!!!!”

 

[User.45]

There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.

Honestly, this statement is disturbing. You write a wordy paragraph to minimize the experiences of African Americans with unethical medical experiments that were built around a system that explicitly held the value of Black Lives below any other groups'. Did you ever do CITI training for research? Are those training courses part of the so called media narrative you're referring to? Just replace Blacks with Jewish people, the setting with holocaust and the region with Germany and Eastern Europe and you'll see what the issues are with the above line.

 

[ronntaylor]

There’s also a decently high level of resistance in the Black community. I attribute a lot of this to this media narrative that Black people should be afraid due to historic medical injustices against this population.

JFC! You blame the media for a "historical" narrative, then mention shit from the 50s. The mistreatment and often non-treatment of Black people continues to this day. There are stories on a regular basis. It impacts African Americans in urban and rural areas. It effect working class to the upper middle class and even wealthy African Americans. Hell, there were plenty of stories about Serena Williams -- one of the most visible athletes on the planet, as well as one of the highest paid -- being ignored by medical staff and suffering as a result. Ain't nothing "historical" about that.

 

[AG_PhamD]

You think black people need ”the media” to remind them of racist medical experiments? These stories are passed down for generations.

Seriously, blaming the media for this is way off-base.

It’s also the same argument used by those banning books. “If we tell kids about racism in history, the white kids will feel guilty and the black kids will feel like victims!!!!”

Honestly, this statement is disturbing. You write a wordy paragraph to minimize the experiences of African Americans with unethical medical experiments that were built around a system that explicitly held the value of Black Lives below any other groups'. Did you ever do CITI training for research. Are those training courses part of the so called media narrative you're referring to? Just replace Blacks with Jewish people, the setting with holocaust and the region with Germany and Eastern Europe and you'll see what the issues are with the above line.

My comment was not to insinuate black people are unaware of their own history in this country. Clearly they are. But most people seem to be totally unaware that ANYONE of low social status back in the day was a target for unethical experimentation (minorities + mentally ill, orphans, prisoners- regardless of race) and in quite a few cases the general public was fair game for the government, white people very much included.

For weeks-months the media’s explanation for low vaccination rates was pushed by a narrative of fear due to historic injustice when there are many other potential equally legitimate factors that don’t seem to be investigated/reported at the same time- such as geographical access, having the time to do so, information access, healthcare literacy, etc. Or maybe it’s the fact black people don’t trust the current healthcare system due to modern experiences with racism or bias.

In my opinion, much of the media subtly pushes this idea that in 2020 the healthcare system cannot be trusted to give to vaccines to minorities, which has the effect of making people more afraid to get vaccinated, putting their communities at higher risk of death. And to me that is unacceptable. Zero comment that the healthcare system has changed since the 1950’s and is striving to rid itself of ongoing discrepancies. Zero comment that Black people were not the only people experimented on back then. Zero effort to say “remember all these experimental atrocities you might be concerned about, this isn’t the case anymore, there are tons of barriers in place to prevent unethical experimentation today, you should feel safe you’re getting the same vaccine as anyone else”. Nothing about how the vaccine was tested against a representative population. Or what about the fact that this degree of vaccine hesitancy was unprecedented in the black community compared to other vaccines.

Not providing full context is misleading and is frankly dangerous and to the detriment of the Black community. That’s irresponsible reporting IMO.

Instead gist of most articles and reports were Black communities have low vaccination rates and that there’s mistrust in the healthcare system from things like Tuskegee trials, so hesitancy is in a sense understandable because of things that happened many decades ago. I find that suggestion totally off base in the 2020’s.

I have zero problem recognizing past and current injustices against the Black population. My problem is a one sided story that insinuates the idea that Black people should be weary of the vaccine because of things like Tuskegee.

(And that’s not to say there isn’t inequality in healthcare today between races- but its a very different situation than unethical experimentation. While there are definitely situations of racial bias, a lot the discrepancies in outcome IMO have to do socioeconomic affecting access to healthcare, the quality of that care, insurance coverage, etc- all serious problems in themselves).

And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under. Any new drug should be treated with skepticism of course, but maybe wait for the data to review before you fear monger.

I am Jewish and had family members that were experimented on. But I don’t mistrust the healthcare system today in Germany because of what happened in the 1940’s.

If you want a story of why to be concerned about the healthcare system, the FDA approval process and ties between officials and pharmaceutical companies frankly is a far more legitimate concern today.

What I find most interesting is that in speaking to many, many Black patients, despite all the media talk of unethical historic trials, that fear is NOT the reason these individuals are not vaccinated. It generally falls into either a lack of easy access to vaccines or general mistrust of the healthcare system due to their own negative experiences in modern times leading them to avoid healthcare whenever possible.

 

[AG_PhamD]

JFC! You blame the media for a "historical" narrative, then mention shit from the 50s. The mistreatment and often non-treatment of Black people continues to this day. There are stories on a regular basis. It impacts African Americans in urban and rural areas. It effect working class to the upper middle class and even wealthy African Americans. Hell, there were plenty of stories about Serena Williams -- one of the most visible athletes on the planet, as well as one of the highest paid -- being ignored by medical staff and suffering as a result. Ain't nothing "historical" about that.

As you’ll see in my post above, that is actually one of the more common problems- not things like Tuskegee. Now in 2021 with more objective reporting on COVID, you see some articles like this eluding to exactly what I said https://www.latimes.com/science/sto...expls-vaccine-hesitancy-among-black-americans
(If you have a paywall: https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/...black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine)

My intention is not to offend the Black community. My goal is to get as many people vaccinated so that they don’t die. LISTENING to patients and Identifying the real barriers is how you address the underlying problems. Not making presumptions about what they are probably thinking.

Considering general mistrust is one of the leading issues, I think it’s important for healthcare professionals to acknowledge they may have had negative experiences in the past but we are here today to do everything we can for them. That’s the beginning of regaining trust.

 

[User.45]

My comment was not to insinuate black people are unaware of their own history in this country. Clearly they are. But most people seem to be totally unaware that ANYONE of low social status back in the day was a target for unethical experimentation (minorities + mentally ill, orphans, prisoners- regardless of race) and in quite a few cases the general public was fair game for the government, white people very much included.

Your incoherence and lack of understanding of what racism means really bothers me. You're trying to dilute very specific experiences of a very specific group in a topic you brought up about this very specific group. Your reasoning here is that a culture of mistrust that stems from this group being historically disproportionately targeted by unethical experimentation is not justifiable, because "poor white people were experimented on too". Seriously?

For weeks-months the media’s explanation for low vaccination rates was pushed by a narrative of fear due to historic injustice when there are many other potential equally legitimate factors that don’t seem to be investigated/reported at the same time- such as geographical access, having the time to do so, information access, healthcare literacy, etc.

Which media? You need to be much more specific here. You blame media but not the administration whose leadership spewed disinformation hindered the public trust in the CDC or the FDA. How does this make sense?

Or maybe it’s the fact black people don’t trust the current healthcare system due to modern experiences with racism or bias.

...and cluelessly condescending White pharmacists.

In my opinion, much of the media subtly pushes this idea that in 2020 the healthcare system cannot be trusted to give to vaccines to minorities, which has the effect of making people more afraid to get vaccinated, putting their communities at higher risk of death.

How come I picked up on a different narrative, where disparity research finally gets media attention... So you want problems solved by talking about them, but you don't want media to talk about them at the same time?!

And to me that is unacceptable. Zero comment that the healthcare system has changed since the 1950’s and is striving to rid itself of ongoing discrepancies.

Striving is great, not achieving it is not.

Zero comment that Black people were not the only people experimented on back then.

This is turning into a White Lives Matter sorta reasoning...

Zero effort to say “remember all these experimental atrocities you might be concerned about, this isn’t the case anymore, there are tons of barriers in place to prevent unethical experimentation today, you should feel safe you’re getting the same vaccine as anyone else”. Nothing about how the vaccine was tested against a representative population. Or what about the fact that this degree of vaccine hesitancy was unprecedented in the black community compared to other vaccines.

How come you forget about concerted efforts of disinformation on social media?

Not providing full context is misleading and is frankly dangerous and to the detriment of the Black community. That’s irresponsible reporting IMO.

Well, then how come you're missing the full context?

Instead gist of most articles and reports were Black communities have low vaccination rates and that there’s mistrust in the healthcare system from things like Tuskegee trials, so hesitancy is in a sense understandable because of things that happened many decades ago. I find that suggestion totally off base in the 2020’s. I have zero problem recognizing past and current injustices against the Black population. My problem is a one sided story that insinuates the idea that Black people should be weary of the vaccine because of things like Tuskegee.

No it's not. Scientists bring up Tuskegee because that's what they learn about during their training. Black families bring their stories from the south, from the north and those stories include misdeeds and misperceptions from the recent past too. You're trying to tell me to take a participation trophy for pledging to reduce healthcare disparities, while using current disparities to override the relevance of the atrocities of the past?!

And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under. Any new drug should be treated with skepticism of course, but maybe wait for the data to review before you fear monger.

You need to name these very high profile individuals and quote the statements, because a specific set of statements were misrepresented by some person here and has been repeatedly debunked.

I am Jewish and had family members that were experimented on. But I don’t mistrust the healthcare system today in Germany because of what happened in the 1940’s.

But you presumably would if Jewish people still had the level of outcome disparities in Germany, African Americans have in the USA.

If you want a story of why to be concerned about the healthcare system, the FDA approval process and ties between officials and pharmaceutical companies frankly is a far more legitimate concern today.

It's a far more legitimate concern to YOU as a White person. For African Americans it's much more concerning that good quality evidence often did not include them (us). I'll give you an example: the evidence on clot retrievers or extended thrombolytic windows in acute stroke treatment was established contained maybe 2% Blacks and studied Whites mainly. Now the difference is that these approaches work much better for embolic strokes more common in Whites, whereas Black patients usually have small vessel infarcts. Meaning, the risk benefit ratios differ for Blacks and when I consent a Black patient I only have inaccurate data. And then you're telling us that Oh, it's the bad experiences of the present. It's this.


I'm not impressed.

 

[Renzatic]

Agreed, there is a faction of the left very much into “natural medicine” that is highly against vaccinations and pharmaceuticals in general. While I think right-wing make up a much larger segment overall at the moment, here in MA (a very liberal place), I do see probably almost as many liberal antivaxxers as I do conservative. Prior to COVID, some of the least vaccinated places in terms of children were wealthy, blue suburbs.

 

[SuperMatt]

What I find most interesting is that in speaking to many, many Black patients, despite all the media talk of unethical historic trials, that fear is NOT the reason these individuals are not vaccinated. It generally falls into either a lack of easy access to vaccines or general mistrust of the healthcare system due to their own negative experiences in modern times leading them to avoid healthcare whenever possible.

Then why did you blame the “media narrative”?

 

[ronntaylor]

And all of this was pre-empted by certain very high profile individuals saying the vaccine should not be trusted because of the president it was developed under.

@P_X already addressed your other statements beautifully. But this is pure, unadulterated BS. You won't be able to pull up any quotes showing this unless you do a FOX-style hatchet job. The most perfect example is:

"Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us. I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump. And it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about. I will not take his word for it. He wants us to inject bleach. I — no, I will not take his word."

Why would anyone trust Mango when he said that COVID-19 would disappear when it got warmer? When he suggested:

"I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning?"

And then he added this polished turd:

"So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it's ultraviolet or just a very powerful light — and I think you said that hasn't been checked because of the testing." ... "And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're going to test that, too."

Dr. Birx was incredulous behind the moron and couldn't keep a straight face. He then went on to challenge the doctors that tried to show deference to the office by saying that that wasn't the kind of work that they're engaged in. He always has to have the last word: "Maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't work."

No, there is no question that he is a moron and any sane adult would question anything that he said about COVID-19.

 

[Yoused]

No, there is no question that he is a moron and any sane adult would question anything that he said about COVID-19.

The problem we have is that, although the country has plenty of sane adults (and young'uns), they inherently do not make nearly as much noise as the idiot minority.